lakhnish Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 I was making a flowchart of the tasks needed to defeat the Celestial Champion and I've come to the conclusion that there is no reasonable way for a new player to figure this stuff out on their own. The skill trees might make players aware that the Fuelweaver and the Celestial Champion exists, but I do not believe that they will be able to figure out how to do this entire questline with the scrapbook (and this flowchart isn't complete yet either). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 I 100% agree, especially if Klei is going to lock newer content and cool character abilities behind needing to fight CC & AFW. These things were so “Obscure” because they were the final hidden bosses, but that’s not the case anymore… new content updates are reliant on you beating CC & AFW. At first it was completely ignoreable perks such as bonus damage against Lunar/Shadow creatures for Wilson & Wolfgang, But Woodies skill tree locked abilities help with his curse, and all of Wormwoods fun stuff is locked behind killing CC. This quest needs clearer guidance, the “figure it out on your own” only worked in the context that figuring it out was part of the challenge, but now Challenges, Perks and New updates are being locked behind all that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 the nightmare werepig has the same issue to some extent, it's so obvious that you need the obscure tool that no one uses to start the fight isn't it? The character quotes don't even tell you pick/axe is a requirement... on the topic of pick/axe, why is that the devs are trying so hard to make me use this specific item? Like they buffed it several times but still nobody uses it, so now it is a requirement? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidyfoo Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 One of my friends doesn't play the game anymore and one of the reasons why is because they want more direction so that they can experience content. It's so hard to figure stuff out when they keep adding stuff and you don't know what to focus on. The goal we all had when we first started playing was to survive until summer. But after that we didn't know what to do as we had survived all the seasons and we ended up missing out on so much content. They really need something to help new players and even players who have played for a while that still miss out on stuff, that's me, figure out obscure goals. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakhnish Posted August 21, 2023 Author Share Posted August 21, 2023 19 minutes ago, Squidyfoo said: One of my friends doesn't play the game anymore and one of the reasons why is because they want more direction so that they can experience content. It's so hard to figure stuff out when they keep adding stuff and you don't know what to focus on. The goal we all had when we first started playing was to survive until summer. But after that we didn't know what to do as we had survived all the seasons and we ended up missing out on so much content. They really need something to help new players and even players who have played for a while that still miss out on stuff, that's me, figure out obscure goals. My experience with this game way back in 2018 when I started playing it, I played with more experienced players and they just carried me through content that I never knew existed and I was hooked since. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't be playing the game today, which is a shame cause it just means that there are that many people like your friend who would be playing but can't cause of the problems you listed. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 Originally the entire gameplay of DS/DST as in what was fun & what gave the game longevity & difficulty was the players own lack of knowledge, I guarantee you anyone who didn’t watch twitch streams or read wikipedia threads made the fatal mistakes of not crafting a lightning Rod in spring or an Ice Flingo in Summer. And the game just brutally punished you FOR that lack of knowledge. In the same way.. a lot of the game was structured like this: AKA- A noobie player who doesn’t even know Antlion exists will be bothered by her world damaging behavior on both the surface & in caves a million times more then someone who knows what to do (appease or fight her) her Sinkholes/Cave collapses actually Intensify over time the longer you DON’T interact with her. The same thing can be said about these newer content updates, Shadow Rifts will punish the player unfairly & brutally until they can Obtain the gear Klei expects you to use for shadow rifts (void gear & Umbralla) they also expect you to know how to craft support pillars- Without this knowledge the player just continues to be punished by acid rain breaking all their gear, boulders raining from the skies and more. the TL:DR is that the game trolls you much harder for your lack of knowledge. But now that Newer content is being locked behind learning previous obscure knowledge we need clearer guidance on how to reach the “New” stuff. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
loopuleasa Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 12 hours ago, lakhnish said: My experience with this game way back in 2018 when I started playing it, I played with more experienced players and they just carried me through content that I never knew existed and I was hooked since. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't be playing the game today, which is a shame cause it just means that there are that many people like your friend who would be playing but can't cause of the problems you listed. The best way to learn is to be the dumbest person in the room. The true masters are the EU pub players that awed me all those moons ago. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1660834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popian Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 On 8/21/2023 at 11:41 PM, lakhnish said: when I started playing it, I played with more experienced players and they just carried me through content that I never knew existed and I was hooked since. Maxwell shares secret knowledge with Wilson and traps him in The Constant. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowercase skye Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 On 8/21/2023 at 4:16 PM, _zwb said: the nightmare werepig has the same issue to some extent, it's so obvious that you need the obscure tool that no one uses to start the fight isn't it? The character quotes don't even tell you pick/axe is a requirement... your character says they need a stronger tool for this thing you can mine with a pickaxe. there exist two stronger pickaxes in this game that both work. i don't think it's that unintuitive at all especially for something with such a late place in the pre-rift progression. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddocc Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 they could tie it to sanity or lunacy voices that whisper you when you are constantly insane like the shadow tools this whispers would stop once the player has defeated fuelweaver or celestial champion. maybe when getting attacked by gestalts they whisper you like every character says when examining them Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroban Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 On 8/21/2023 at 5:16 PM, _zwb said: the nightmare werepig has the same issue to some extent, it's so obvious that you need the obscure tool that no one uses to start the fight isn't it? The character quotes don't even tell you pick/axe is a requirement... on the topic of pick/axe, why is that the devs are trying so hard to make me use this specific item? Like they buffed it several times but still nobody uses it, so now it is a requirement? Well technically you can also use Woodie's improved werebeaver, with the tier 3 that allows him to break hard materials you can destroy the pillars with no problem. But yeah I agree, its annoying that pick/axe is required, I would much prefer being able to destroy it with a gold pick but taking way more hits or something Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 14 minutes ago, kroban said: Well technically you can also use Woodie's improved werebeaver, with the tier 3 that allows him to break hard materials you can destroy the pillars with no problem. But yeah I agree, its annoying that pick/axe is required, I would much prefer being able to destroy it with a gold pick but taking way more hits or something I was hitting this thing with a Brightshade Pick/Hammer, and it still wouldn’t break because of the dumb restricted tool requirements. I also feel like a good bit of the CC quest line should be completely removed, like.. why do I absolutely have no choice but to fight the HARDEST Version of Crab King to obtain Pearls cracked Pearl & finish this highly dumb overly drawn out quest line? If newer game content- no wait let me rephrase that entirely…. If newer game “World” Content, Aka as in new things happening in familiar areas you been through a billion times, is going to be locked behind needing to kill CC, Maybe just make it easier to just fight CC without all the filler fluff? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valase Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said: I was hitting this thing with a Brightshade Pick/Hammer, and it still wouldn’t break because of the dumb restricted tool requirements. Weird, it should be able to mine(the outer layer) it normally, you should try it again, and if the problem persists, report as a bug. 5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said: I also feel like a good bit of the CC quest line should be completely removed, like.. why do I absolutely have no choice but to fight the HARDEST Version of Crab King to obtain Pearls cracked Pearl & finish this highly dumb overly drawn out quest line? If newer game content- no wait let me rephrase that entirely…. Ever since the bee strats emerged, I didn't have any issues with the boss. But I play with Wickerbottom (she has her grumble bees and a way to unfreeze them) and Wormwood( with his perk, you can just fill your pockets with killer bees and release them) so I'm very biased. On 8/21/2023 at 12:50 PM, lakhnish said: I was making a flowchart of the tasks needed to defeat the Celestial Champion and I've come to the conclusion that there is no reasonable way for a new player to figure this stuff out on their own. The skill trees might make players aware that the Fuelweaver and the Celestial Champion exists, but I do not believe that they will be able to figure out how to do this entire questline with the scrapbook (and this flowchart isn't complete yet either). Once you finish the flowchart, would you mind to post here on the forums, I always forget to do "the next step" of the CC quest. And as a suggestion, since we already have the scrapbook, we could have a "diary", where we would either get Wagstaff field notes (to help the step by step of the CC quest line) or Charlie rituals (to help to find the AF quest line) with a very small chance to get a page on tumbleweeds, gravedigging and killing enemies from related biomes (lunar biomes for Wag, Ruins for Charlie), and with some others from specific bosses(even though we have more shadow bosses than lunar ones). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenship2 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 19 hours ago, Mike23Ua said: why do I absolutely have no choice but to fight the HARDEST Version of Crab King clearly you haven't tried max pearl crab king crab king isn't even that bad, i personally find the fight somewhat enjoyable (though the amount of resources you need to fight him efficiently should be changed) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakhnish Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/24/2023 at 9:54 PM, Valase said: Once you finish the flowchart, would you mind to post here on the forums, I always forget to do "the next step" of the CC quest. It is ugly but it's finished Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150543-new-players-need-more-help-for-figuring-out-the-celestial-champion-route/#findComment-1661744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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