Rebalancing The Starting Planetoids

[crbd115]

So as of this testing branch these are the biomes for each start.

Terra

Spoiler

• Sandstone
• Marsh
• Jungle
• Wasteland
• Cold

Forest

Spoiler

• Forest
• Wasteland
• Rust
• Cold
• Jungle

Swamp

Spoiler

• Swamp
• Wasteland
• Cold
• Jungle

Now it makes some sense that each has the wasteland as that's the only way to get sugar for sugar rockets.

Also now each start has the cold biome to even out the starting geysers across the 3 starts at least in terms of water supply. I feel like this is debatable if it is good or not but I haven't really decided how I feel about it. Though that's not really the point of this post. The main point of this post is, at minimum, I think the swamp needs some attention. At most I think they all need some minor attention.

I always felt like the jungle biome was kind of thrown into the swamp start and felt somewhat out of place. I also kind of feel like its out of place in the forest start, but the devs seem to want each start to have a cool steam vent. 

When the forest and sandstone starts were in vanilla their design seemed to make more sense and work with the supporting biomes.

In terra the marsh and jungle both make sense as they are the natural expansion for players. Each one had algae to entice the player to explore, each one had reed fiber in different forms, each had a metal with a unique use, and each had food. 

With the forest start, the rust biome gives you access to pools of ethanol which made sense since you would be using your trees for ethanol. Also you had the ocean biome with pokeshells which ate that polluted dirt you produced with the ethanol set up. Now though the ocean is on a separate planetoid which I'm not sure I agree with.

The swamp just feels unfinished. Its original distinguishing feature was that it was cold focused and terrra was heat focused. Now they all have cold biomes, and the swamp biome has no real supporting biomes making it just feel like its missing something. I'm not really sure which biome makes the most sense to add to it though as they all make some amount of sense but none really feel like they are made for the swamp in the same way that the other starts feel like they have biomes that were designed with each other in mind.

I would arguably say to add the marsh to the swamp start so the number of biomes is the same across each start and because I think it synergizes the best with the swamp start. I know that some players would be hesitant to have slime in a starting planetoid with two pollution focused biomes but short of them making a new biome entirely designed to synergize with the swamp biome I think this makes the most sense.

 

 

 

[Nebbie]

You forgot Barren, which at least from what I've seen on Forest acts as a "Hey here's some straight iron, you know, for steel, that you could be making right now if lime wasn't an utter drag on all gameplay to get because Pokeshells are on the other planet!"

I think CSVs don't belong on the (current set of) starting asteroids. They're a pain to tame, completely at odds with the potential of a Cold Salt Slush Geyser to solve multiple problems at once. I'd replace each with a more appropriate water geyser, which I'll detail in each biome further down, and have a guaranteed CSV on the Oily planetoid so it can be more self-sustaining (very important for playing without the teleporter). As for why Jungle is everywhere, it's because of Dreckos and Balm Lilys; I think the former is reasonable, but not the latter (we could do with alternative ways to make Curative Tablets once they eventually become important again...)

So, addressing the Swamp start first, I'd swap the Jungle and CSV for Marsh and a 30 C Polluted Water Geyser, but with some Dreckos and Mealwood put in the Marsh, so players have relatively easy access to plastic. This would I think make it feel more cohesive; deal with the sick and get nice rewards.

Terra is a simple one: Swap the CSV for a 30 C Water Geyser, so it's a very straightforward thing for players who don't want a big challenge, but also giving them less options.

Forest...is a mess. First off, yes the lack of Tidepool is maddening. Tidepool on the Oily planetoid where it's too low temperature to grow its Waterweed ever is insane. Trade its Jungle and CSV for Tidepool and a 95 C Saltwater Geyser. It'd make it more cohesive with the endgame being domestic Lettuce and critter-based steel.
While on the subject, I think the Rust biome is garbage. It rapidly loses its chlorine (and Squeaky Pufts due to the Puft egg mechanics) and then becomes too hot, so in practically no time at all it's just stifled plants and two different out-of-place critters with nothing to eat. If there was a "Rusty" Drecko variant that was colder and peed cold Chlorine and ate noush sprout growth, I think it would maintain itself a lot better.

[crbd115]

2 hours ago, Nebbie said:

You forgot Barren, which at least from what I've seen on Forest acts as a "Hey here's some straight iron, you know, for steel, that you could be making right now if lime wasn't an utter drag on all gameplay to get because Pokeshells are on the other planet!"

Are you talking about the lower crust before magma? Every planetoid has both an upper and lower crust I wasn't forgetting.

 

2 hours ago, Nebbie said:

I think CSVs don't belong on the (current set of) starting asteroids.

I mean I think the player should have to learn how to cool them, and having a heat source that is less trouble then a volcano is a good learning experience for newer players. Like I said above though I wasn't making this post to debate geyser balance. That's a different topic entirely that should be had but I'm focusing more on the secondary biomes for each planetoid.

 

2 hours ago, Nebbie said:

As for why Jungle is everywhere, it's because of Dreckos and Balm Lilys

I mean yes but this is why we have two sources of reed fiber. The jungle makes less sense then say the marsh as the marsh synergizes with each of the starting biomes, but I wouldn't care if it wasnt just thrown into all of them for some reason.

2 hours ago, Nebbie said:

So, addressing the Swamp start first, I'd swap the Jungle and CSV for Marsh and a 30 C Polluted Water Geyser, but with some Dreckos and Mealwood put in the Marsh, so players have relatively easy access to plastic. This would I think make it feel more cohesive; deal with the sick and get nice rewards.

I wouldn't mind mealwood if there also wasn't a lack of dirt in the swamp and it doesn't really make sense to just throw dreckos into the biome at all.

I think all in all they should make a new biome designed more with the swamp in mind. To match the level of thought that went into the previous two starts when they were made.

[ZombieDupe]

Several ways these starting planetoids could be changed. Logically the Terra start should be the easiest and the Swamp one should be the hardest in this list but from playing and looking at the biome list, to me it's the other way round overall. I don't think Terra should have either the Jungle or the Marsh biomes in it, at least not as the secondary biomes right next to the starting sandstone one. If germs are made more difficult, the Marsh biome will actually become as big of a problem as it initially appears and having a hot biome right next to you doesn't make the game any easier even if a solution is one biome over, insulation aside. Makes more sense to put the Marsh biome in the Swamp planetoid where germs could be the biggest challenge and having to use cold to combat it as it has the whole pollution thing going on. The jungle biome looks like a perfect fit for Aridio type planetoid, but that is further down the line. If there is one thing I think could be changed that fits well for Terra is to have reed fibre be found on the starting sandstone biome. Seems too good early on considering how powerful atmo suits are, but I do think it fits well for having the easiest version of the game right there. Plus I think the suits should also require you to use plastic or at least some glass as additional materials to make the suits anyway. 

Biome layout currently also varies on secondary and tertiary planetoids drastically even if it's meant to be a variation of an existing starting planetoid. I think that would be a good thing to have consistent biomes. This wouldn't limit diversity in world generation if the planetoids you travel to are randomised on which one is in proximity to you. Maybe for easier starts you wouldn't want the second planetoid you can teleport to be the hardest one, but that can be limited too. Klei for some reason has pushed for having oil always on the second planetoid no matter the type of planetoid it is representing, but limiting oil, magma and many other crucial resources to specific types of planetoids and having the second, third and further planetoid types being more random instead sounds much more interesting while keeping the consistency of each planetoid having more strict set of biomes.

Biome consistent geysers for set biomes would also be great, much like what was done with the slush geysers as they are pretty much perfect to appear inside the cold frost biomes. I would switch resources around on some of these, maybe even create some new biomes, but assuming resources found in biomes are left more or less as they are, here are some examples of fitting geysers that you could find in each biome type. Starting biomes could still have no geysers at all given you need that space to build the infrastructure of your colony, this is more about external biomes, even if some of these don't appear like that just yet. Geyser temperatures can also be tweaked if that doesn't seem appropriate or reasonable for a particular biome, personally don't really like that the salt water geyser and water geyser are both at 95C as opposed to something more reasonable like 30C or 50C. This would also be one big step in creating at least a sense of ecosystems, so pufts could consume polluted oxygen off-gassed by polluted water and excrete slime, which could be eaten by pacus who excrete polluted water.

Spoiler

 

Sandstone - Copper Volcano

Forest - Aluminum Volcano

Swamp - Polluted Water Vent, Cool Slush Geyser, Cobalt Volcano

Marsh - Polluted Water Vent, Infectious Polluted Oxygen Vent, Gold Volcano

Jungle - Chlorine Vent, Water Geyser

Rust - Chlorine Vent, Ethanol Geyser

Ocean - Salt Water Geyser, Hydrogen Vent

Frozen - Carbon Dioxide Geyser, Cool Salty Slush Geyser

Frozen (second variation) - Liquid Oxygen Geyser, Tungsten Volcano

Moonlet - Liquid Chlorine Geyser, Methane Geyser

Oil - Oil Reservoir, Leaky Oil Fissure, Lead Volcano

Wasteland - Liquid Sulfur Geyser

Desert (oasis desert) - Hot Polluted Oxygen Vent, Cool Steam Vent

Magma - Volcano, Minor Volcano, Iron Volcano

Uranium - Liquid Chlorine Geyser, some geyser for potentially providing renewable enriched uranium, Niobium Volcano?

 

One new biome idea - cave biome that is full of minerals, full of coal, abyss bugs, stone hatches, dusk caps, some rich metals and lots of CO2 could be a cool and more expanded version of the barren biome. A perfect fit for a Carbon Dioxide vent.

Not entirely sure about the natural gas geyser, none of the existing biomes particularly fit well for it to me.

[Nebbie]

12 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Are you talking about the lower crust before magma? Every planetoid has both an upper and lower crust I wasn't forgetting.

 

I mean I think the player should have to learn how to cool them, and having a heat source that is less trouble then a volcano is a good learning experience for newer players. Like I said above though I wasn't making this post to debate geyser balance. That's a different topic entirely that should be had but I'm focusing more on the secondary biomes for each planetoid.

 

I mean yes but this is why we have two sources of reed fiber. The jungle makes less sense then say the marsh as the marsh synergizes with each of the starting biomes, but I wouldn't care if it wasnt just thrown into all of them for some reason.

I wouldn't mind mealwood if there also wasn't a lack of dirt in the swamp and it doesn't really make sense to just throw dreckos into the biome at all.

I think all in all they should make a new biome designed more with the swamp in mind. To match the level of thought that went into the previous two starts when they were made.

It is a lower crust, but it still counts as a biome.
Well the devs seem to believe everyone needs a cool geyser, and frankly, with how complex ONI is for new players to begin with, I agree. There is 0 reason we need to be taming CSVs on the starting asteroid. It should be a challenge for expanding out to other places.
As for Dreckos, they're for plastic too; if you deprive any start of Dreckos, you deprive it of oil-less plastic, which can utterly screw new players six ways from sunday when they mess up in regards to heat.

[crbd115]

12 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I don't think Terra should have either the Jungle or the Marsh biomes in it, at least not as the secondary biomes right next to the starting sandstone one. If germs are made more difficult, the Marsh biome will actually become as big of a problem as it initially appears and having a hot biome right next to you doesn't make the game any easier even if a solution is one biome over, insulation aside.

I fully disagree. First of all those people keep acting like those two biomes are super difficult. They are not, not even remotely. They each are a decision the player has to make and for multiple reasons and I think its a good design. I need more x resource (x= food, reed fiber, metal, algae) do I want to deal with some heat and non breathable gasses, or do I want the more temperate but germy one that has breathable gasses. Both of these biomes have a problem to solve and a reward that encourages you to explore into them. Both biomes support the sandstone biome as an expansion well. Both biomes are roughly the equivalent of starting in the shallow end in terms of difficulty. Compare both of these biomes to what they are meant to prepare you for, the Oil biome.
The oil biome is one large biome rather then separate individual biomes (in most cases), it has significant amounts of heat, to the point of hurting or even killing duplicants. Which if you didn't learn how to deal with heat by exploring the jungle at some point you are screwed. Then it has zombie spores. Now you have a much harder to deal with germ that is much more severe if exposed, and if you didn't explore the marsh biome and learn how to deal with germs then guess what, you're screwed. 

12 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Makes more sense to put the Marsh biome in the Swamp planetoid where germs could be the biggest challenge and having to use cold to combat it as it has the whole pollution thing going on.

I do think the marsh biome should be on the swamp as the new main challenge to the planetoid as well as the fact that its one of the few supporting biomes that can somewhat synergize with the swamp. The main resources of the swamp are polluted dirt, polluted water, and polluted oxygen, which if you wanted to ranch pufts this is a perfect combination for it. The cold acts as a tool to offset the handicap of having twice as much polluted oxygen.

12 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

If there is one thing I think could be changed that fits well for Terra is to have reed fibre be found on the starting sandstone biome.

This is entirely unnecessary and makes no sense. Reed fiber needs large amounts of polluted water, which is why its in the marsh biome. Also reed fiber is a mid to late game resource so why would it be in the early game starting biome?

12 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Plus I think the suits should also require you to use plastic or at least some glass as additional materials to make the suits anyway. 

I used to think the suits should have plastic but after many discussions on the matter I have changed my mind. I do fully agree with glass though, especially since the led suits use glass in their recipe.

12 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

One new biome idea - cave biome that is full of minerals, full of coal, abyss bugs, stone hatches, dusk caps, some rich metals and lots of CO2 could be a cool and more expanded version of the barren biome. A perfect fit for a Carbon Dioxide vent.

I don't entirely disagree but at the same time, having dusk caps in the biome means it would need slime. Do abyss bugs not grant light? If they do grant light then that also makes no sense to put with mushrooms. 

I think if klei decided to make a new biome to support the marsh it needs to make use or help the player with the main challenges of the marsh. We have no plant that consumes polluted dirt. I would love a plant that converts polluted dirt to clean dirt rather then a compost pile since the compost pile requires a decent amount of duplicant labor. A critter that creates metal to help with plug slug ranching is a possibility. A plant or critter that converts polluted oxygen to clean oxygen. Probably some sand for all the filtering we have to do in the marsh biome since it has almost none of its own. I think since the focus of the marsh biome is supposed to be on plug slugs for power so coal would pull away from that. 
On a different note I would love a natural gas focused biome on a starting planetoid. Obviously we have the Moonlets biome but that's meant as a late game option and I think it would be interesting to have a biome with large pockets of unrenewable natural gas to get the player using it but then needing to look for it in other places to sustain them in the long term.

7 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Well the devs seem to believe everyone needs a cool geyser, and frankly, with how complex ONI is for new players to begin with, I agree.

To be fair. The devs may or may not have believed it, but enough people in the community asked for it. I'm ok with it but I really think each planetoid only needed one to match the cool steam vent so there is a balance, rather then 2 slush 1 cool steam.

7 hours ago, Nebbie said:

As for Dreckos, they're for plastic too; if you deprive any start of Dreckos, you deprive it of oil-less plastic, which can utterly screw new players six ways from sunday when they mess up in regards to heat.

Depriving any start of dreckos as an option for plastic is no different to how oil is now on the second planetoid. If you have to go to space to get them like with plastic the only resources you need is a little refined metal and some co2. As long as each start has at least one option for reed fiber whether that be dreckos or reed fiber plants I think its fine.

[Nebbie]

6 hours ago, crbd115 said:

...

Depriving any start of dreckos as an option for plastic is no different to how oil is now on the second planetoid. If you have to go to space to get them like with plastic the only resources you need is a little refined metal and some co2. As long as each start has at least one option for reed fiber whether that be dreckos or reed fiber plants I think its fine.

It is hugely different, because the entire point is that newer players will be utterly screwed if they need to go into high heat stuff to get plastic...which they need to deal with high heat. There has to be an option for plastic on the starting asteroid that is safe on heat.

[ZombieDupe]

8 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I fully disagree. First of all those people keep acting like those two biomes are super difficult. They are not, not even remotely. They each are a decision the player has to make and for multiple reasons and I think its a good design...

That is precisely the problem. I have seen it multiple times, people not exploring because they think they are not ready to explore there. Colony being on the verge of collapse has not incentivised them enough to explore further in time or at all. These biomes look dangerous and like they will bring more problems than they will solve and in all honesty should be as dangerous and moved to harder difficulties and further out.

In the current state of Terra I guarantee you, from the 3 biomes next to the starting one on Terra more new players and in fact many players in general are going to take the safest option, that being the Wasteland biome. It has temperatures akin to the Marsh but has no germs, on top of having a plant food source that can withstand much higher temperatures if that started to become a problem. You are free to dig there without taking any real precautions.

There are so many more biomes I can give as examples that are and even look much easier than Marsh or Jungle; Swamp, Forest, Rust, Wasteland, heck even I would even go as far as to say Ocean, Barren and the Frozen biomes (unless frostbite damage gets added and I hope it does). For the easiest start an example layout for Terra could be replacing Marsh with Swamp and Jungle with Rust. Then not only do you have much more cooler temperatures right nearby you like in the Forest start, you have reason to set reed fibre on the sandstone biome. You get the fibre at the start, but have to go into the Swamp if you really want to benefit from mass producing it and Rust biome is an early game heat sink with a lot less chlorine and extra resources to both explore and take advantage of. It just makes more sense.

8 hours ago, crbd115 said:

.. I need more x resource (x= food, reed fiber, metal, algae) do I want to deal with some heat and non breathable gasses, or do I want the more temperate but germy one that has breathable gasses. Both of these biomes have a problem to solve and a reward that encourages you to explore into them. Both biomes support the sandstone biome as an expansion well. Both biomes are roughly the equivalent of starting in the shallow end in terms of difficulty. Compare both of these biomes to what they are meant to prepare you for, the Oil biome.
The oil biome is one large biome rather then separate individual biomes (in most cases), it has significant amounts of heat, to the point of hurting or even killing duplicants. Which if you didn't learn how to deal with heat by exploring the jungle at some point you are screwed. Then it has zombie spores. Now you have a much harder to deal with germ that is much more severe if exposed, and if you didn't explore the marsh biome and learn how to deal with germs then guess what, you're screwed.

 

This is entirely unnecessary and makes no sense. Reed fiber needs large amounts of polluted water, which is why its in the marsh biome. Also reed fiber is a mid to late game resource so why would it be in the early game starting biome?

For something to be considered the easiest start, I would beg to differ. Think, why and when would a new player ever find and focus on that little bit of reed fibre that might possibly be found in a dangerous biome, especially when they have more pressing problems to deal with? Most thimble reed seeds are found in cracks in the Marsh anyway. They have no idea what it's for or why they would need it, if they even found out that it exists in the first place.

The reed fibre being right next to you the first time you encounter it could make a player curious as to why this resource would be there to begin with and give them time to familiarise themselves with it, which is an important component for the atmo suits. The polluted water necessity is a little bit of a caveat, but it can work in teaching exploration through the Swamp biome as mentioned earlier, which has no germs, has lower temperatures and has all the polluted water you could ever possibly want for a long time.  Maybe they would want to put on oxygen masks on their duplicants when exploring there, which isn't that difficult to do, but that's about it. Another way could be to change their requirements or provide variations for those requirements so the fibre could take either one, water or polluted water. Not convinced there is enough incentive to new players to explore into a Marsh or a Jungle biome, it just doesn't really happen in practice. When an initiative is just too bold, they will probably think it's better to be safe than sorry regardless of the consequence.

Marsh biome on the Swamp start does make sense and works really well as both a challenge and a synergy of resources for progression in a sense, and it isn't the first start type you are presented with to be too much, so we can agree on that.

8 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I used to think the suits should have plastic but after many discussions on the matter I have changed my mind. I do fully agree with glass though, especially since the led suits use glass in their recipe.

From a gameplay perspective given the sources for plastic are oil and glossy dreckos it makes sense not to require it. We could have some earlier alternative versions for plastic to be used in making suits like rubber or more alternative ways to make plastic, but I digress.

8 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I don't entirely disagree but at the same time, having dusk caps in the biome means it would need slime. Do abyss bugs not grant light? If they do grant light then that also makes no sense to put with mushrooms. 

Dusk caps to me have always been a bit strangely balanced. They explicitly require CO2 to grow in, but require slime to fertilise which off gasses polluted oxygen which stifles them, it's a little awkward. One way this could be changed is having two variations of the shroom a bit like we have the grubfruit plants and mutations done, so one version could grow in polluted oxygen (and be found in Marsh) and take slime while the other would grow in CO2 and take something else to grow (and be found in a new Cave biome). And no, abyss bugs don't give off light, that's why I mentioned them as part of the biome.

[crbd115]

18 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

That is precisely the problem. I have seen it multiple times, people not exploring because they think they are not ready to explore there. Colony being on the verge of collapse has not incentivised them enough to explore further in time or at all. These biomes look dangerous and like they will bring more problems than they will solve and in all honesty should be as dangerous and moved to harder difficulties and further out.

If they're colony is on the verge of collapse because they refuse to get out of their comfort zone and do the thing that will save their colony that is entirely their fault. That wont change if you move it to higher difficulty focused worlds. People that refuse to go out of their comfort zone even when that is detrimental and they can see it wont change because they choose not to. There is no point in changing the game around them because nothing will fix that because it is entirely in their head.

 

18 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

In the current state of Terra I guarantee you, from the 3 biomes next to the starting one on Terra more new players and in fact many players in general are going to take the safest option, that being the Wasteland biome. It has temperatures akin to the Marsh but has no germs, on top of having a plant food source that can withstand much higher temperatures if that started to become a problem. You are free to dig there without taking any real precautions.

Who cares if they choose the easiest option first? That's why its there and that's why its also designed in such a way that it gives you no long term renewable resources. You have gained a limited amount of sulfur and sugar. There is only a little oxilite to make exploring it easier but not enough to keep your base alive. That is why it used to be that the two renewable water sources were in the jungle and marsh respectively. Also that's why there is tons upon tons of algae in both biomes so that players who explore get more time to get a renewable source of oxygen set up.

 

18 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

There are so many more biomes I can give as examples that are and even look much easier than Marsh or Jungle; Swamp, Forest, Rust, Wasteland, heck even I would even go as far as to say Ocean, Barren and the Frozen biomes (unless frostbite damage gets added and I hope it does). For the easiest start an example layout for Terra could be replacing Marsh with Swamp and Jungle with Rust. Then not only do you have much more cooler temperatures right nearby you like in the Forest start, you have reason to set reed fibre on the sandstone biome. You get the fibre at the start, but have to go into the Swamp if you really want to benefit from mass producing it and Rust biome is an early game heat sink with a lot less chlorine and extra resources to both explore and take advantage of. It just makes more sense.

They look easier because they are easier. They are also designed around the forest biome which was and is harder then the sandstone biome. How does it make more sense to just throw the rust biome in the sandstone? It doesnt do anything related to the sandstone biome. The jungle gives algae which the player uses as their starting oxygen source. The rust biome would force you to randomly replace your first temporary oxygen source with just another temporary oxygen source. Then your base would be flooded with chlorine and if then those people you refer to constantly, who are too scared to venture into the jungle biome, would complain about that. Again reed fiber makes no sense in the sandstone biome. For the same exact reasons in my previous post. 

 

18 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

For something to be considered the easiest start, I would beg to differ. Think, why and when would a new player ever find and focus on that little bit of reed fibre that might possibly be found in a dangerous biome, especially when they have more pressing problems to deal with? Most thimble reed seeds are found in cracks in the Marsh anyway. They have no idea what it's for or why they would need it, if they even found out that it exists in the first place.

Ok you clearly didn't read my post if you think that reed fiber is the only or main reason for a new player to go to the marsh. The main reasons in order of priority would typically be algae, water, food, reed fiber. They would focus on what they need first then get reed fiber as a result and they could also use that newly acquired reed fiber to deal with the problems of the biome with ease. That's also why masks were made to make it even easier since they no longer have to wait for reed fiber to deal with these issues. If they choose not to with all the options they are given then that is their own issue to deal with.

 

18 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Dusk caps to me have always been a bit strangely balanced. They explicitly require CO2 to grow in, but require slime to fertilise which off gasses polluted oxygen which stifles them, it's a little awkward

Slime only off gasses if the room isn't high enough pressure, then because CO2 is the heavier gas, the polluted oxygen goes up above the mushrooms so how is it an issue?

Honestly I think the one thing that I have realized is that they probably shouldn't have put the cold biome with cold water geysers in the terrra start, or even the forest start. If they really wanted to lower the difficulty of terra they could just replace the cool steam vents with a polluted water geyser in the marsh and a hot water geyser in the jungle biomes. I also wonder if it would be better to move the natural gas geyser to the wasteland biome rather then having two guaranteed geysers in one biome type. Then each planetoid would have access to a natural gas geyser. 
Maybe the rust biome could have a guaranteed leaky ethanol fissure. Similar in design to the leaky oil fissure where it never stops running but has a low output. I really think the ocean biome should go back to being with the forest start in place of the jungle. Though they would have to make sure there is still dreckos that spawn in the rust biome (even though I think it should be a rust drecko variant instead). They could also put the salt water geyser in the ocean biome again. Then just have one water vent/geyser on the oil planetoid as a reward for exploring it and to make the teleporter less runs a little easier. 
I think that with these smaller planetoids we should really only have one garunteed geyser for each biome but then also one random one as well in each biome. 

[ZombieDupe]

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

If they're colony is on the verge of collapse because they refuse to get out of their comfort zone and do the thing that will save their colony that is entirely their fault. That wont change if you move it to higher difficulty focused worlds. People that refuse to go out of their comfort zone even when that is detrimental and they can see it wont change because they choose not to. There is no point in changing the game around them because nothing will fix that because it is entirely in their head.

Well that's the most prominent and default behavior I have seen new people take, or they somehow dodge these two biomes and get to a frozen biome. Leaving it like this will just discourage more people from trying out and learning the game through playing, that's why we should care. Exploration through danger really works more when you think you are safe enough to tackle it.

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Who cares if they choose the easiest option first? That's why its there and that's why its also designed in such a way that it gives you no long term renewable resources. You have gained a limited amount of sulfur and sugar. There is only a little oxilite to make exploring it easier but not enough to keep your base alive. That is why it used to be that the two renewable water sources were in the jungle and marsh respectively. Also that's why there is tons upon tons of algae in both biomes so that players who explore get more time to get a renewable source of oxygen set up.

Not my point. The point is that because it's the safest it will usually be the route taken. If only Marsh and Jungle existed, which is the case in the base game Terra, many players will likely feel stuck.

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Ok you clearly didn't read my post if you think that reed fiber is the only or main reason for a new player to go to the marsh. The main reasons in order of priority would typically be algae, water, food, reed fiber. They would focus on what they need first then get reed fiber as a result and they could also use that newly acquired reed fiber to deal with the problems of the biome with ease. That's also why masks were made to make it even easier since they no longer have to wait for reed fiber to deal with these issues. If they choose not to with all the options they are given then that is their own issue to deal with.

Purely hypothetical, but sure. I have never observed a new player approach a slime biome deep enough to tell, precisely because they aren't given something to feel comfortable enough to go into such a biome on their first try, namely atmo suits. Using resources of a biome to deal with the problems of the biome just sounds ridiculous, definitely not a good way to design biome layout on any planetoid.

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Slime only off gasses if the room isn't high enough pressure, then because CO2 is the heavier gas, the polluted oxygen goes up above the mushrooms so how is it an issue?

Yes it only happens if it's above 1800g, I have colony usually even for CO2 at around 1500g in most places, but sure it can be above the amount without causing popped eardrums or explicitly needing high pressurise insurance. It's just a bit counter intuitive in my opinion for the dusk caps to work this way, so that's why I think 2 variations in 2 different biomes with some tie-in to the mutations would be better.

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Honestly I think the one thing that I have realized is that they probably shouldn't have put the cold biome with cold water geysers in the terrra start, or even the forest start. If they really wanted to lower the difficulty of terra they could just replace the cool steam vents with a polluted water geyser in the marsh and a hot water geyser in the jungle biomes. I also wonder if it would be better to move the natural gas geyser to the wasteland biome rather then having two guaranteed geysers in one biome type. Then each planetoid would have access to a natural gas geyser. 
Maybe the rust biome could have a guaranteed leaky ethanol fissure. Similar in design to the leaky oil fissure where it never stops running but has a low output. I really think the ocean biome should go back to being with the forest start in place of the jungle. Though they would have to make sure there is still dreckos that spawn in the rust biome (even though I think it should be a rust drecko variant instead). They could also put the salt water geyser in the ocean biome again. Then just have one water vent/geyser on the oil planetoid as a reward for exploring it and to make the teleporter less runs a little easier.

No because again, these are hot temperatures to deal with and warm temperatures along with germs that should and probably will get buffed. I would expect the base Terra type game difficulty to be more akin to Aridio, as that is fairly difficult along with everything being warm to hot. Remember heat is harder to deal with than cold and you have to teach things gradually to the player, one thing at a time. Germs, heat and everything else that is just too much for a first start and I have observed it many times before, but let me know if you would like some gameplay footage with context, I could provide that to back up my point about heat and germs of these two biomes on Terra specifically. Think about how the game would be different for a new player if Marsh and Jungle were replaced with Swamp and Rust biomes respectively.

The rest I can largely agree with. Curious if the main gas in the Wasteland biome was just natural gas with nat gas geyser instead. I do mention a ethanol geyser in my spoiler about geyser biome setting :P

14 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I think that with these smaller planetoids we should really only have one garunteed geyser for each biome but then also one random one as well in each biome. 

I still think it would be more fair and easier to not mess up code for developers themselves to have consistency by setting specific geysers for specific biomes and specific biomes on specific planetoids. Then we can just have different curated planetoids as the secondary, tertiary and so forth for added randomness instead.

[crbd115]

5 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Well that's the most prominent and default behavior I have seen new people take, or they somehow dodge these two biomes and get to a frozen biome. Leaving it like this will just discourage more people from trying out and learning the game through playing, that's why we should care. Exploration through danger really works more when you think you are safe enough to tackle it.

5 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Purely hypothetical, but sure. I have never observed a new player approach a slime biome deep enough to tell, precisely because they aren't given something to feel comfortable enough to go into such a biome on their first try, namely atmo suits. Using resources of a biome to deal with the problems of the biome just sounds ridiculous, definitely not a good way to design biome layout on any planetoid.

That is completely backwards. "Exploration through danger really works more when you are safe enough to tackle it" There is no danger if you are already safe enough that is the point. Say for example people had atmo suits before being able to leave their starting biome like you suggested multiple times by putting reed fiber in the starting biome. That then removes all challenges from the biome and they then learn absolutely nothing. That is why reed fiber is available by exploring those biomes so that you have to deal with the challenge and learn from it and then you are rewarded. The point of atmo suits is to help you with the oil biome but it also happens to defeat the challenges of every other biome.

How is that ridiculous game design and how are you one to decide that is not a good way to design biome layout? Especially when your answer to everything is give them the answer to every problem. Oh man people don't explore the jungle or marsh, maybe if we gave them atmo suits or just unlimited food and oxygen ahead of time they would explore it? There is this mode called no sweat mode. There is sandbox mode. There is absolutely no reason to simply take a game designed around problem solving and give the answers to every problem to the player.

6 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

No because again, these are hot temperatures to deal with and warm temperatures along with germs that should and probably will get buffed. I would expect the base Terra type game difficulty to be more akin to Aridio, as that is fairly difficult along with everything being warm to hot. Remember heat is harder to deal with than cold and you have to teach things gradually to the player, one thing at a time. Germs, heat and everything else that is just too much for a first start and I have observed it many times before, but let me know if you would like some gameplay footage with context, I could provide that to back up my point about heat and germs of these two biomes on Terra specifically. Think about how the game would be different for a new player if Marsh and Jungle were replaced with Swamp and Rust biomes respectively.

The fact that it is hot is the whole point. It is a problem to be solved. I at least tried to have a compromise saying that if cool steam vents are too hard and too hot at least there is something more manageable that still follows the design for the game. Heat is harder to deal with then cold. Well duh, that's the whole point. Because cool slush geysers are the equivalent to just having the game solved for you. Its almost like every building naturally generates heat and having a continuous source of cold that is never ending is easier. The player has more then enough time to deal with these issues that it doesn't need to be spread out over multiple playthroughs or moved to other planetoids where you have already basically solved the game at that point. If you have successfully colonized multiple planetoids you have basically solved all your issues already at that point. There is not much to learn after that. 

[ZombieDupe]

7 hours ago, crbd115 said:

That is completely backwards. "Exploration through danger really works more when you are safe enough to tackle it" There is no danger if you are already safe enough that is the point. Say for example people had atmo suits before being able to leave their starting biome like you suggested multiple times by putting reed fiber in the starting biome. That then removes all challenges from the biome and they then learn absolutely nothing. That is why reed fiber is available by exploring those biomes so that you have to deal with the challenge and learn from it and then you are rewarded. The point of atmo suits is to help you with the oil biome but it also happens to defeat the challenges of every other biome.

How is that ridiculous game design and how are you one to decide that is not a good way to design biome layout? Especially when your answer to everything is give them the answer to every problem. Oh man people don't explore the jungle or marsh, maybe if we gave them atmo suits or just unlimited food and oxygen ahead of time they would explore it? There is this mode called no sweat mode. There is sandbox mode. There is absolutely no reason to simply take a game designed around problem solving and give the answers to every problem to the player.

The fact that it is hot is the whole point. It is a problem to be solved. I at least tried to have a compromise saying that if cool steam vents are too hard and too hot at least there is something more manageable that still follows the design for the game. Heat is harder to deal with then cold. Well duh, that's the whole point. Because cool slush geysers are the equivalent to just having the game solved for you. Its almost like every building naturally generates heat and having a continuous source of cold that is never ending is easier. The player has more then enough time to deal with these issues that it doesn't need to be spread out over multiple playthroughs or moved to other planetoids where you have already basically solved the game at that point. If you have successfully colonized multiple planetoids you have basically solved all your issues already at that point. There is not much to learn after that. 

The point is to have little danger, to have the basics to tackle like food, oxygen etc things that every planetoid will present problems for. Heat should not be extra addition in this if you want a new player to learn the game at a decent pace. If they find the game too easy, they can try the harder difficulties instead, but the importance of starting off with the easier difficulty in biome and geyser layout for a game like this is crucial. The slush geysers were a prime example in this, and the game benefitted from it. The no sweat mode and difficulty sliders are very cheaply done and really need more attention if difficulty is to be scaled by this as well, which I think could be done, but I stand by the idea that Terra should present very little challenge and reward easy first exploration and having reed fiber at the beginning for Terra specifically can inform the player that this resource is important for something.

7 hours ago, crbd115 said:

The fact that it is hot is the whole point. It is a problem to be solved. I at least tried to have a compromise saying that if cool steam vents are too hard and too hot at least there is something more manageable that still follows the design for the game. Heat is harder to deal with then cold. Well duh, that's the whole point. Because cool slush geysers are the equivalent to just having the game solved for you. Its almost like every building naturally generates heat and having a continuous source of cold that is never ending is easier. The player has more then enough time to deal with these issues that it doesn't need to be spread out over multiple playthroughs or moved to other planetoids where you have already basically solved the game at that point. If you have successfully colonized multiple planetoids you have basically solved all your issues already at that point. There is not much to learn after that. 

Reason I don't agree with heat being so much of a problem so early on for the first planetoid you start on for what is supposed to be the easiest difficulty is because it is one of the hardest things to deal with in the game period (since more things generate heat much more easily than they delete it). You don't just present a new player with the final boss in level 2 in games normally, do you? You set them up for the challenge beforehand if it's reasonable enough to do so without unknowingly gating them off from the game so it makes more sense to leave these two biomes as secondary ones for higher difficulty planetoids for that reason. If we have so many more biomes that are much easier to be put in place of Marsh and Jungle for Terra, then what reason is there to present this difficulty from the start? I've seen the heat and to further extent germ problem in biomes not being tackled before out of fear and people quitting the game around that point, no attempts at creating a roadmap for overcoming these challenges will trump that. Have the two biomes replaced with Swamp and Rust on Terra and leave Aridio type start and it should work out just fine, I would be eager to try out Aridio start to challenge myself if that's what made it unique. We have many more planetoids where heat in some capacity is the main challenge, Terra and many others don't have to be that and the base game has demonstrated the detriment of that mentality.

[crbd115]

6 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The point is to have little danger, to have the basics to tackle like food, oxygen etc things that every planetoid will present problems for. Heat should not be extra addition in this if you want a new player to learn the game at a decent pace. If they find the game too easy, they can try the harder difficulties instead, but the importance of starting off with the easier difficulty in biome and geyser layout for a game like this is crucial.

That is the point of the starting biome. It is temperate and full of free resources. Heat only becomes a problem after you leave and it is mild one at that. This isn't Oassisse or Volcanea. Heat on terra is at best an annoyance. The main issue which you said yourself before is that the newer players overthink and over imagine the challenges. Giving them the answer in either the starting biome with atmo suits or giving them endless free cold from the slush geysers is not the solution. There is a reason they dont use sandbox, or no sweat mode, or mods for that matter. They don't want to be given the answer but at the same time they are making the problems out to be bigger then they are. This is a cycle off their own making and only they can break it by experiencing it for themselves. Giving them atmo suits doesn't help the problem because then they think that either they can't do it without suits or that atmo suits are op and the game is boring.
The main problem with the previous version of terra without the cool biome in my opinion was that they gave them cool steam vents but without the some of the main early game solutions of wheezeworts and the anti entropy thermo nullifier that we had access to in vanilla. Instead of giving them the tools to solve the problem themselves and learn from it. They just gave them the answers to the entire test in the form of two never ending sources of cold, the slush geysers.

6 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

You don't just present a new player with the final boss in level 2 in games normally, do you? You set them up for the challenge beforehand if it's reasonable enough to do so without unknowingly gating them off from the game so it makes more sense to leave these two biomes as secondary ones for higher difficulty planetoids for that reason. If we have so many more biomes that are much easier to be put in place of Marsh and Jungle for Terra, then what reason is there to present this difficulty from the start?

Your contradicting yourself entirely. Every suggestion you've made has been taking away the ways to prepare them for the "final boss". For mid to late game problems of the oil biome or the volcanoes. The marsh and jungle are not difficult at all. You have even said it yourself.

On 6/23/2021 at 5:24 AM, ZombieDupe said:

I have seen it multiple times, people not exploring because they think they are not ready to explore there.

The problem is giving them free solutions doesn't prepare them at all. Encouraging them to solve it themselves through limited algae, food, water and heat encourages them to go out of their starting biome. If they don't solve it themselves they don't learn, that is teaching 101. You can give them a nudge at best which is why they put tons of free resources alongside those "challenges".
They have had more then enough time to cover the basics in the starting biome without having to deal with the issue of heat or germs. The heat or germs coming from the secondary biomes is not even a challenge in the least. They just think it is. Giving them the answer doesn't make them think the problem is any less. They then think the problem is so big that they had to be given a free win to get past it. 

[ZombieDupe]

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

That is the point of the starting biome. It is temperate and full of free resources. Heat only becomes a problem after you leave and it is mild one at that. This isn't Oassisse or Volcanea. Heat on terra is at best an annoyance. The main issue which you said yourself before is that the newer players overthink and over imagine the challenges. Giving them the answer in either the starting biome with atmo suits or giving them endless free cold from the slush geysers is not the solution. There is a reason they dont use sandbox, or no sweat mode, or mods for that matter. They don't want to be given the answer but at the same time they are making the problems out to be bigger then they are. This is a cycle off their own making and only they can break it by experiencing it for themselves. Giving them atmo suits doesn't help the problem because then they think that either they can't do it without suits or that atmo suits are op and the game is boring.
The main problem with the previous version of terra without the cool biome in my opinion was that they gave them cool steam vents but without the some of the main early game solutions of wheezeworts and the anti entropy thermo nullifier that we had access to in vanilla. Instead of giving them the tools to solve the problem themselves and learn from it. They just gave them the answers to the entire test in the form of two never ending sources of cold, the slush geysers.

Your contradicting yourself entirely. Every suggestion you've made has been taking away the ways to prepare them for the "final boss". For mid to late game problems of the oil biome or the volcanoes. The marsh and jungle are not difficult at all. You have even said it yourself.

The problem is giving them free solutions doesn't prepare them at all. Encouraging them to solve it themselves through limited algae, food, water and heat encourages them to go out of their starting biome. If they don't solve it themselves they don't learn, that is teaching 101. You can give them a nudge at best which is why they put tons of free resources alongside those "challenges".
They have had more then enough time to cover the basics in the starting biome without having to deal with the issue of heat or germs. The heat or germs coming from the secondary biomes is not even a challenge in the least. They just think it is. Giving them the answer doesn't make them think the problem is any less. They then think the problem is so big that they had to be given a free win to get past it. 

Just a whole lot of nope with this one, so I guess that's that. More people not learning and quitting the game being fine, I mean if you like that train of thought keep at it. I would rather more people get to gradually experience more game mechanics and enjoy the game more rather than presenting problems too marginal to overcome for most early on. And it's better to give the impression to the player that there's less danger or ease the danger, if they think there is more danger and that stops them from continuing when you would expect them to continue, then I think you've failed as a designer.

[crbd115]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

More people not learning and quitting the game being fine

if they think there is more danger and that stops them from continuing when you would expect them to continue, then I think you've failed as a designer.

Yeah I'm sure that's the issue. There will always be people that refuse to learn the game or it just doesn't mesh with them. That amount of people though is a very small minority that your continually trying to cater to.

Sure over 63,000 people were able to learn and enjoy the game over the last 4 years with the way the game was designed, but the players that refuse to attempt to learn are the ones we should cater to. Not like we have a sandbox mode, no sweat mode, and difficulty sliders to help with that. Lets rework the entire game to just what your view of the game should be. Go ahead and tell the klei devs you think they've failed as designers because "some" players quit because they overthink a problem and refuse to learn it. Even with the array of tools given to them. Not everyone will like ONI, not everyone will like most games. That's fine. They don't need to cater to the 1% that give up without trying.

 

[ZombieDupe]

11 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Yeah I'm sure that's the issue. There will always be people that refuse to learn the game or it just doesn't mesh with them. That amount of people though is a very small minority that your continually trying to cater to.

Sure over 63,000 people were able to learn and enjoy the game over the last 4 years with the way the game was designed, but the players that refuse to attempt to learn are the ones we should cater to. Not like we have a sandbox mode, no sweat mode, and difficulty sliders to help with that. Lets rework the entire game to just what your view of the game should be. Go ahead and tell the klei devs you think they've failed as designers because "some" players quit because they overthink a problem and refuse to learn it. Even with the array of tools given to them. Not everyone will like ONI, not everyone will like most games. That's fine. They don't need to cater to the 1% that give up without trying.

 

The ratings and the feedback in the content for their games is very misleading, people tend to praise their games without going in detail on how well something works because I think the genre of some of their games are not particularly common compared to others, Klei often gets a pass because some people think things are fine when they really aren't. I'll tell you this, even when starting out with reed fibre and very chill biomes that are just a little bit harder to deal with than the starting one like Swamp or Rust nearby, you would have plenty people fail and struggle quite a bit due to their own mistakes. This is because learning the very fundamentals of the game like managing oxygen, pipe systems, power systems, automation, food, refinement, access and more is plenty enough.

Giving an easy start lets you learn without things compounding to failure that you don't know how to address, and heat with millions of germs for a disease you don't understand just adds that extra level of difficulty that is entirely unnecessary for a new player to tackle this early, especially heat, which is ultimately the single most difficult thing to manage in this game. This is why I think the slush geysers for example were a good addition and could be further expanded upon to explore freezing temperatures too.

Have a read of some of the negative reviews for the game, they are fairly constructive and mention many of the issues I have brought up myself.