TheKilltech Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 ONI is a game where everything needs to be planned a little ahead so having information about the corresponding resource chains is critical. When I started playing ONI I had always the wiki open my other monitor so I can read all the information i needed. Now with this new DLC the wiki is not up-to date on all aspects and the in game Database is just lacking a lot of information. Basically, each Resource needs to mention all process it can be involved with, and that includes links to all buildings using it as input or output. For example there is no information neither on the "bog jelly" nor on its plant that it can be further processed to "swampy delights". I had to build the grill first to find that out! In fact, the "bog jelly" entry does not even have a link to the "bog bucket" which it originates from! Since I've been relying mostly on the internal database for information i found that most entries are just not very helpful at all. Even worse are those articles that merely tease info, like sulfur. yeah, try finding out how to make sulfur based only on the info you get from the database... It's kind of pointless to invest having a database feature if it's practically barely usable. In the current state I would just suggest to have the database take its info from a wiki page instead. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalflower Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 nearly all info requested can be found in the codex... I don't disagree that the codex can definitely use some improvements in how it sorts its information, certain things like critter reproduction stats are mostly absent from the codex...but to imply that the feature is entirely useless is just...wrong...I consistently use the codex for numbers on buildings and for information on elements as well as manufacturing recipes and plant conditions...the solution you propose to just source it from the wiki just sounds...awful... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripLykely Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 1 hour ago, TheKilltech said: Database is just lacking a lot of information. It certainly could be better but I'd imagine the database will get fine tuned as that seems more of a 'polishing' detail than other aspects of the DLC. 1 hour ago, TheKilltech said: try finding out how to make sulfur based only on the info you get from the database... It tells you its involved in natural gas production, when you search of natural gas you get more info on temps and new elements, etc. Ultimately the database gives you the info to make sulfer. It isn't as clear as other elements but in fairness, pre-DLC sulfur was just a waste product with no real use. Now of course its quite useful and limited beyond the now included sulfer geyser. 1 hour ago, TheKilltech said: Now with this new DLC the wiki is not up-to date on all aspects and the in game That's because we're on the cutting edge of the ONI universe! Early access only opened a week ago I'm sure many improvements are to come, including some key database entries, but I personally find it quite useful (although I use the Wiki, ONI Assistant, forums searches, YT vids, etc. also) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Lbphero said: nearly all info requested can be found in the codex... I don't disagree that the codex can definitely use some improvements in how it sorts its information, certain things like critter reproduction stats are mostly absent from the codex...but to imply that the feature is entirely useless is just...wrong...I consistently use the codex for numbers on buildings and for information on elements as well as manufacturing recipes and plant conditions...the solution you propose to just source it from the wiki just sounds...awful... And how is a player supposed to find the "swapy delights" article? You have to know that it is related to the bog jelly in the first place to look it up - unless you browse every single database article before you even start playing. No, most people won't do that. So it has to be found by looking up the things that a player actually encounters: either the plant or its fruit. Same for sulfur, though I admit that the geyser has "sulfur" in its name so using the search option will show it (doesn't work for geysers for brine though). Yeah, using the wiki isn't the best solution, but it's better then what we have now. Hence i suggested this as an additional option to what we have now (switched on/off in option) or perhaps an extension to the current codex (i.e. a "more info" link at the bottom of each entry which opens the wiki entry) would be cool. 7 hours ago, TripLykely said: It tells you its involved in natural gas production, when you search of natural gas you get more info on temps and new elements, etc. Ultimately the database gives you the info to make sulfer. It isn't as clear as other elements but in fairness, pre-DLC sulfur was just a waste product with no real use. Now of course its quite useful and limited beyond the now included sulfer geyser. Actually it doesn't. I had to look it up on the wiki so know which database entries to check and tell you what info each is missing for someone to learn it through the codex. It's really only useful to the experienced player who knows most of the stuff already and perhaps just forgot a detail and can use the codex to remind him. But for a new player... "natural gas production" somehow suggest it's done via a building. So that's what i was looking for first. And i checked every one, but of course none of those emitting natural gas mentioned sulfur. natural gas entry itself contains no mention either. Nor is there any mention about sour gas, neither in that article nor that about methane, so it's a dead end when it comes for a player to finding out about this "natural gas production". So without knowing the process beforehand a unknowing player has no more things to search for and will give up. Methane having two gas states of which sour gas is hidden (won't find it in the methane article, but sour gas names it as it liquid state) is confusing given how far the games terminology diverts from reality: methane is usually associated with the gas state, while the solid is normally called methane ice like it is found on comets. The liquid, well, i didn't even know methane had a liquid state and thought it sublimes directly from ice to gas like carbon dioxide does under normal circumstance. Well, learned something new. Anyhow, what I intended to say here is that I would never come up to the idea to look for a second gas (i.e. sour gas) it can be produced from all on my own. There is no mention outside the wiki that cooling sour gas produces sulfur. Neither does it give any numbers. Oh, and all about sulfur applies to the base game already. I haven't noticed it before because the wiki has all the information and hence i never needed to use the codex. Sure sulfur may have been unimportant in the base game but it's kind of symptomatic for the entire database. Everything i try to look up quickly leads to a dead end and i have to go back to the wiki. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmoop Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 hours ago, TripLykely said: It certainly could be better but I'd imagine the database will get fine tuned as that seems more of a 'polishing' detail than other aspects of the DLC. The data base and info/UI is something I have been commenting about i think ever since I created the account here (you can check my history and see for yourself that I also noticed the points TheKilltech was mentioning). I was asking to tweak it for a long time before the DLC was announced. I agree with the thread opener on this. the data and in game info needs to be improved. And presentation needs to be improved as well. It is something that is related to 'polishing' rather then 'features' so I understand if it isn't the highest priority. But I just hope that it will get done *sometime*. I expected it to get fixed when the full game was out, and in the end it wasn't. Now I expect it to get fixed when the DLC will be finished. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalflower Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 6 hours ago, TheKilltech said: And how is a player supposed to find the "swapy delights" article? By looking in the food category or the electric grill page because they want to know more about the new foods... 6 hours ago, TheKilltech said: Yeah, using the wiki isn't the best solution, but it's better then what we have now. No, its not...not only can the wiki be simply incorrect on many things (see: the dontstarve wiki lying for literal years about torches giving warmth) but it is subject to constant vandalization where i dont think it should rlly even be linked to in the real game...the wiki is not at all the solution you should be asking for when you ask for improvements to the codex... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Lbphero said: By looking in the food category or the electric grill page because they want to know more about the new foods... Could have also been the gas range. Or it could have entirely different uses altogether where perhaps it needs to be fed to a critter or something, who knows? I mean the processing chains in this game aren't entirely based on reality that you can guess it... and that's the problem. A data base is supposed to give you information so you don't have to guess or try it out yourself. Also... when I want to find out all buildings that can process a resource... you suggest that i should first start by looking up the very buildings that use it?!? Are you trolling me, or are you really suggesting that I should start by already knowing what I am looking for, just so i can use the database to confirm what I already needed to know to find it? Okay, if that's your idea of humor, you got me there. Maybe you should start looking at the database with the premise that you don't have certain information which is exactly the reason why anyone might want to use it in the first place - and it especially applies to knew player less familiar with the game, which for example might not even know which food processing buildings are in the game. 2 hours ago, Lbphero said: No, its not...not only can the wiki be simply incorrect on many things (see: the dontstarve wiki lying for literal years about torches giving warmth) but it is subject to constant vandalization where i dont think it should rlly even be linked to in the real game...the wiki is not at all the solution you should be asking for when you ask for improvements to the codex... wikis usually allow to link to certain versions of articles which cannot change retroactively - hence one can use verified versions. Alternatively one can just copy the verified content over to the game files. in the end wiki articles are usually a very good presentation of what information players actually want to know. If nothing else one can use that as a blueprint for codex entries and maybe condense it a little. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalflower Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, TheKilltech said: Also... when I want to find out all buildings that can process a resource... you suggest that i should first start by looking up the very buildings that use it?!? yes, dude...it's not that hard to think to look up food production buildings to see if X or Y food can be improved with it, especially if you already know that there are many other recipes that do this... i'm saying that the codex has the information you're looking for, even if its not necessarily super well organized...A player could feasibly look up a bunch of stuff about food production to see whats changed or added during the new update, just like I did... I've already stated that the codex can use some more information and more organization of information, but the main point i was arguing against was the notion of at all incorporating the wiki into the codex, which i am still very much against... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Lbphero said: yes, dude...it's not that hard to think to look up food production buildings to see if X or Y food can be improved with it, especially if you already know that there are many other recipes that do this... i'm saying that the codex has the information you're looking for, even if its not necessarily super well organized...A player could feasibly look up a bunch of stuff about food production to see whats changed or added during the new update, just like I did... Sure, let's try your approach with something else then, like the "Dasha Saltvine". So another plant that produces food ingredients, so should be easy, right? Okay, let's look up the food buildings... just to find out none of them use salt. now I am totally confused. The codex says that it can be eaten with meals, so why isn't it in any recipe?!? That's because you have to put it into the early metal refining building (totally intuitive) to produce tier 2 salt aka "table salt" - because it should be obvious to everyone that "salt" actually means "salt ore" that needs processing similar to other metal ores - so obvious that the codex on salt doesn't even need to mention that little detail on how to refine salt (and ofc its not the desalinator). Let's not mention that typing in "salt" in the search box doesn't find a "table salt" article... because there is none and if you click on it in the rock crusher recipes list it forwards you to the "Data not found" entry with a nice outhouse picture, which isn't helpful either. Outhouse codex also makes no mention on salt. So you have to magically know somehow salt gets into the food through the table (it's named "table salt" for a reason) and apparently all food tastes better salted. Hmm, have to try salted apples one day. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripLykely Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 9 hours ago, TheKilltech said: Actually it doesn't. I had to look it up on the wiki so know which database entries to check and tell you what info each is missing for someone to learn it through the codex. It's really only useful to the experienced player who knows most of the stuff already and perhaps just forgot a detail and can use the codex to remind him. But for a new player... It appears my memory failed me on where I learned the production chain for sulfur. For how I play, and what I like about ONI, discovering things and not having all of the answers is half the fun. I accidentally made sour gas when trying to boil oil to petroleum. Then I looked into sour gas and probably the Wiki and other resources. To me, I didn't see the fact ONI doesn't explain the chain well an issue, I enjoyed it as a late game processing chain the player discovers. And like all games the developers make it and the players solve it; thankfully with ONI we have Klei who has a passion for listening to feedback and improving their projects and a community that's all but solved every problem if you get stuck. 9 hours ago, TheKilltech said: nd how is a player supposed to find the "swapy delights" article? This is kind of like sulfur to me, when you reach a point of needing the info you are given it and can do more research. Yes, it would be great to know all of the foods and strategize the best/sustainable path given your resources as a new player - but the fun of being a new player is not knowing everything. When you first get the grill and open it you see recipes, like swampy delights, which you can look up. Prior to having the grill you really don't need to know what is in swampy delights. Your next playthrough will be with that knowledge and you will inevitably run into another aspect of ONI you need to lookup. All of that being said, I don't disagree with you that the database needs improvements, and hopefully we see them. Personally I love all of the community developed resources to help new and experienced players with ONI because it's absurdly deep and nuanced, but I'd rather they stay separate from the game itself. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 58 minutes ago, TripLykely said: It appears my memory failed me on where I learned the production chain for sulfur. For how I play, and what I like about ONI, discovering things and not having all of the answers is half the fun. I accidentally made sour gas when trying to boil oil to petroleum. Then I looked into sour gas and probably the Wiki and other resources. To me, I didn't see the fact ONI doesn't explain the chain well an issue, I enjoyed it as a late game processing chain the player discovers. And like all games the developers make it and the players solve it; thankfully with ONI we have Klei who has a passion for listening to feedback and improving their projects and a community that's all but solved every problem if you get stuck. This is kind of like sulfur to me, when you reach a point of needing the info you are given it and can do more research. Yes, it would be great to know all of the foods and strategize the best/sustainable path given your resources as a new player - but the fun of being a new player is not knowing everything. When you first get the grill and open it you see recipes, like swampy delights, which you can look up. Prior to having the grill you really don't need to know what is in swampy delights. Your next playthrough will be with that knowledge and you will inevitably run into another aspect of ONI you need to lookup. All of that being said, I don't disagree with you that the database needs improvements, and hopefully we see them. Personally I love all of the community developed resources to help new and experienced players with ONI because it's absurdly deep and nuanced, but I'd rather they stay separate from the game itself. Sure, i understand where you are coming from. Discovering the unknown yourself comes with a big excitement and it's sad if that would be taken away. On the other hand... i started in the new biome with two new plants, one needing polluted water the other sulfur which i had enough of. So i needed to know which one i invest in setting up as my main harvest plant and using the other only as a wild growth. I hope you understand that in my very first playthrough of the new content finding out about how sustainable sulfur based crops are is kind of critical especially when you intend to raise your dupes count early. Otherwise i might starve out my colony many hours into the game and it would be painful to restart just because the game didn't let me know some critical stuff. (That said, the new grubfruit plant.. it lures you with sugar (beetle stuff) but stinks of sulfur. so it smells like a trap) Yeah, the "swampy delights" info was just luxury i wanted to decide how much crop space i want for the new plant for the future (i..e. is it like the lice plant?) or should i try to setup the sleet wheat setup which needed additional research and reprioritize a lot stuff. Anyways, trying to get the info from the codex i just noticed the very same issues. Finally when i start the game there is a link to the forums here to give feedback. So fair enough, i checked some of the other codex entries and found this to be a consistent problem which makes for some valid feedback (IMHO). On my own i can deal with it, so it's nothing gamebreaking for me in anyway. And of course in an early access i don't expect it to be polished, especially such least essential features like the codex. But i found that without the wiki being up-to-date it gave me a good new player experience/perspektive on things which i found valuable enough to share. And given that this is a fairly complex game, I assume the inaccessibility of some important info might make a few less dedicated players give up on ONI. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avc15 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 The tricky part is that maintaining the codex religiously at the very beginning of a beta is kind of a futile endeavor. Maybe I can see doing some light review and maintenance but I do *not* expect it to be accurate at this point. Nor the wiki, for obvious reasons. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, avc15 said: The tricky part is that maintaining the codex religiously at the very beginning of a beta is kind of a futile endeavor. Maybe I can see doing some light review and maintenance but I do *not* expect it to be accurate at this point. Nor the wiki, for obvious reasons. I agree. see my last post you might have missed since we posted about the same time. but as the situation is no much different in the released base game - given that most of the issues are the same for the old vanilla content (giving a good impression what the state of codex at the end will be) and for the new content it felt like i had a pretty good idea how it may be for a new player trying to use the codex. I felt both points made it valid feedback to share. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalflower Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 3 hours ago, TheKilltech said: Sure, let's try your approach with something else then, like the "Dasha Saltvine". So another plant that produces food ingredients, so should be easy, right? Okay, let's look up the food buildings... just to find out none of them use salt. now I am totally confused. The codex says that it can be eaten with meals, so why isn't it in any recipe?!? That's because you have to put it into the early metal refining building (totally intuitive) to produce tier 2 salt aka "table salt" - because it should be obvious to everyone that "salt" actually means "salt ore" that needs processing similar to other metal ores - so obvious that the codex on salt doesn't even need to mention that little detail on how to refine salt (and ofc its not the desalinator). Let's not mention that typing in "salt" in the search box doesn't find a "table salt" article... because there is none and if you click on it in the rock crusher recipes list it forwards you to the "Data not found" entry with a nice outhouse picture, which isn't helpful either. Outhouse codex also makes no mention on salt. So you have to magically know somehow salt gets into the food through the table (it's named "table salt" for a reason) and apparently all food tastes better salted. Hmm, have to try salted apples one day. "hmm, refined, I wonder what could refine salt, oh, maybe a rock crusher?" FIN I could go on and on about how X or Y part of the codex being not exactly straightforward is something that is a problem and should be indeed worked on and how the wiki isnt an adequate solution to it by any stretch of the imagination... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKilltech Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, Lbphero said: "hmm, refined, I wonder what could refine salt, oh, maybe a rock crusher?" FIN I could go on and on about how X or Y part of the codex being not exactly straightforward is something that is a problem and should be indeed worked on and how the wiki isnt an adequate solution to it by any stretch of the imagination... Honestly "refine" for me sounds quite like the opposite of "crush" - indicating a chemical process rather then applying crude mechanical force. If looking for a building I'd look for salt works or maybe a complex process like for natural gas which doesn't even involve a direct refining building. But okay it's mentioned that there is a way to process it and out of the many thinkable possibilities you just have to guess the right one or look everywhere. And true, it makes sense to process "rock salt" in a "rock crusher" in hindsight and proper naming (like i have used here) might have made it easier to guess. Anyhow, all the feedback i wanted to give here is that it's like this for most of the items in the game. I stand by it and personally i just won't use it because of it. So let's leave it at there is room of improvements. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/124941-in-game-database-needs-a-rework/#findComment-1406801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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