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jardaxiiiiik

Klei Should Make The Game Balanced - Not Only The Characters

Answer Please:  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree DST is imbalanced?

    • No, its absolutely fine
      12
    • Yes, I would like make it more balanced
      6


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Hi Klei and fellow Don't Starve Togethers!
  In this topic I want to show you the Flaws of DST Balance.

 

  A good game don't need to be balanced but imbalanced game really feels bad. Dear Klei, there is so much dumb things and I really wanted to show you an easy way how to fix them. Its basicaly in numbers. But when I tried to make full list of these things I needed 4 pages A4. All notes cannot be written there - sorry for that.

Begginers:

1. For begginers this game feels hard. I understand. Its because you dont know things. Klei is trying to fix this by making things you dont really know easyer. Like the Islands. This is not going to work.

2. The fun is in exploration. It would be nice to have some form of guide from terraria because othervise you can get information only from youtube videos and wikipedia.

 

Good Players:

1. This game is not about survival - Thats wrong

2. You can have as much food you can't even eat all - You can kill rabbit just with hand (Nothing more; Thats so imba). Foods from crockpot are so overpowered and you can create meatballs just with one monster meat and 3 ice!

3. You will figure out there is no goal. Only killing bosses - which is pretty much all about preparation.

4. You must cheese the game all the time (Ancient guardian; Crab king;). The game literaly wants you to cheese.

5. You have only one armor (Damage reduction is counted by the higher one). So you never need second armor. (you will have football hat or thulecite crown all the time). Why Klei? This is such a bad design (with DR instead of armor)

6. All enemies can be easily kitable. You just need to know how

7. Damage reduction is so imba (80%Football hat really?).

8. There is no reward in killing bosses - Scalemail from dragonfly have 70%DR but football hat 80%

9. Stun effects are sometimes ridiculous (crab king - permastun)

10. You dont need to extinguish fire. You just run out and the game stops the fire.

11. You acn heal by everything - butterflies gives 10 HP. Pierogi 40 HP and you need only egg and carrot and morsel. (or you can cook it with lichens)

12. Some characters are overall better than others - thats stupid. (Wickerbottom; WX; Wolfgang; Wortox are best)

13. You dont use most items - they are useless (boomerang; darts; rainometer; feather hat; napsack....)

14. And walls are completely useless (only for fire cheeses or Drygonfly)

15. Ancient Library gives you free 4 stacks of full thulecite

16. Lunar cave biome is broken 

17. Moon Islands are completely useless. For now.

And I could show more and more broken things.

  I don't want to say the game is trash but if you know exactly what to do then its so boring. You are just pressing F - auto attack key - and eat pierogi and thats all. Unfortunately.

  Dear Klei, could you please balance the game once per month? Just by changing Health gained from food like pierogi or football hat Damage reduction? It would make better players make something and not just press F and tank the damage. Thank you

Be well.

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I'm sure klei is trying to expand the endgame content to be more challenging for experienced players, but creating a simpler early game for new players so they don't quit the game so easily.

I don't think adjusting all the items and stats in the game is a good thing. DS alone is the base of the entire Don't Starve franchise and is a more challenging game, everything is adjusted for one player, while in DST it seems to be for +2 players. If what you want is a more challenging game, surely klei should add a configuration depending on the number of players, for example, reduce the amount of food in the world and increase the life of certain bosses (Still nobody wants to fight against a misery toadstool with even more life)

It is not an easy game to balance and I trust that klei is doing his best to give the best experience to all players.

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Spoiler

 

sorry man that was an overreaction.i just really love don't starve and seeing you say stuff that i don't agree with i just had to put the booing joke on you

i really don't want to write a long reply responding to everything but i guess since i waste so much time on the forums i will but ill make my answers short 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

1. This game is not about survival - Thats wrong

when you start out the game the game is about survival its just the longer you play the less the game becomes about survival

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

2. You can have as much food you can't even eat all - You can kill rabbit just with hand (Nothing more; Thats so imba). Foods from crockpot are so overpowered and you can create meatballs just with one monster meat and 3 ice!

yeah you can and i can't really disagree with that 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

3. You will figure out there is no goal. Only killing bosses - which is pretty much all about preparation.

first killing bosses is a goal so yes there is a goal.second the game isn't only about killing bosses some people like to megabase so people like to live out on the ocean.just because you're goal is to kill bosses doesn't mean its everyone else's goal

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

4. You must cheese the game all the time (Ancient guardian; Crab king;). The game literaly wants you to cheese.

name any other ones beside those two?also if were talking about killing ancient guardian using pillars that isn't a cheese its intended and crab king is a lot harder to "cheese"if were talking about using ice staffs

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

5. You have only one armor (Damage reduction is counted by the higher one). So you never need second armor. (you will have football hat or thulecite crown all the time). Why Klei? This is such a bad design (with DR instead of armor)

i haven't been on forums long(almost a year)and i only started playing DST during december so i might not be correct on this but im pretty sure in DS both armors count and you become basically invincible(correct me if im wrong)and in my opinion that sounds absolutely lame 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

6. All enemies can be easily kitable. You just need to know how

that isn't a problem at all. in my opinion thats a good thing 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

7. Damage reduction is so imba (80%Football hat really?).

ok so you're telling that its bad design that you can't have two armors at the same time yet you're complaining about just one armor being too OP?

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

8. There is no reward in killing bosses - Scalemail from dragonfly have 70%DR but football hat 80%

there definitely is (examples deerclops eyeball=eyebrella,scales=scaled furnace,bearger fur=insulated pack,etc)if there was no reward in killing bosses i most probably wouldn't even be playing DST right now 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

9. Stun effects are sometimes ridiculous (crab king - permastun)

i agree with you on this one 100%

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

10. You dont need to extinguish fire. You just run out and the game stops the fire.

yeah thats kind of a problem but not everyone is gonna run out when they see a fire they will(most of the time)try to extinguish the fire

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

11. You acn heal by everything - butterflies gives 10 HP. Pierogi 40 HP and you need only egg and carrot and morsel. (or you can cook it with lichens)

not EVERYTHING but yeah you can heal from a lot of stuff and i don"T think that's a problem 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

12. Some characters are overall better than others - thats stupid. (Wickerbottom; WX; Wolfgang; Wortox are best)

have you seen people opinions on the wickerbottom nerf?people didn't like it because they like the character just the way they are (well not everybody but most people)so if you;re suggesting nerfing characters well then thats a no from me 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

13. You dont use most items - they are useless (boomerang; darts; rainometer; feather hat; napsack....)

i completely disagree first boomerang is needed for malbatross(one of my favorite bosses)darts are very good if mass produced. rainometer is really good because it tells you when its gonna rain. napsack can be used to obtain tons of shroom skin

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

14. And walls are completely useless (only for fire cheeses or Drygonfly)

thats kind of a insult to people who build mega bases and i disagree 

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

15. Ancient Library gives you free 4 stacks of full thulecite

are you sure?because i don't remember a place called the ancient library but i could be wrong but i highly doubt you got four stacks of thelecite from one location

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

16. Lunar cave biome is broken 

in what way?

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

17. Moon Islands are completely useless. For now.

completely disagree first glass cutters and axes are really good (for ancient fuelweaver and toadstool respectively)and some people (not me)live for stone fruit and they use nothing but stone fruit (which you obtain from lunar island)so calling lunar island useless is just wrong 

12 minutes ago, m14221 said:

Sounds like you just don't like the entire game and would maybe be happier playing something else?

maybe also i know this a bit late but welcome to the forums.glad to have you here

 

1 hour ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

Be well.

awww thank you 

anyways i wasted like half an hour on this so i hope you have a wonderful day or night wherever you are in the world and remember

don't be a stranger:)

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This sounds a lot more like making a whole new game, what you just described is pretty much just how the core game is, they really can't do a whole lot without changing everything anyone has ever known. If you're bored of how the game is right now. All I can suggest is take a break for a while every few months or so, then come back when there's some new content to explore, that's how I personally keep enjoyment in this game.

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1 hour ago, m14221 said:

Sounds like you just don't like the entire game and would maybe be happier playing something else?

Honestly. I havent played for six months or so. And I stopped for a reason - its too easy or grindy or broken (unfortunately). The game could be better and thats a reason why I stick with it. To help. To be creative and solve problems its design problems...

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1 hour ago, Adam_Webster said:

I'm sure klei is trying to expand the endgame content to be more challenging for experienced players, but creating a simpler early game for new players so they don't quit the game so easily.

I have a better system. Good players tends to rush. Newbies tries to grind. Lets make it Grind/Skill system. If you want to rush to kill a boss you must choose the gear of your level. The better player - the less gear he needs to do things. If you are very bad player - let him farm marble and make a marble suit. This system could be done. But not when ham bat deals 59 damage and you can get it in 5 minutes into the game.

1 hour ago, Adam_Webster said:

I don't think adjusting all the items and stats in the game is a good thing. DS alone is the base of the entire Don't Starve franchise and is a more challenging game, everything is adjusted for one player, while in DST it seems to be for +2 players.

So let it pierogi 40+ HP and everyone is happy? Im not. I would suggest difficulty levels by world generation. Ehmm... There would need to be some good working world generation. And As I mentioned above. If you can make Grind/skill system when there is more players you need less gear even if you are bad. And Good players usually make single player Boss runs...

1 hour ago, Adam_Webster said:

It is not an easy game to balance and I trust that klei is doing his best to give the best experience to all players.

You are surprisingly right. It is hard to balance game. Thats why I spend 2 weeks of studying it before I said anything there. I think anyone in Klei was looking at Damage reduction of every single armor and searched for its better use without much effort. Thats why we must help klei here at the forums.

And is Klei he? I would say Klei is it.

 

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@stranger again  Thank you for your half of hour and I think I'm able to show you the full meaning of my words.

 

The game is really about knowledge. When you know everything there is very small replayability - game feels repetetive. And you need very small amount of skill...

  My dream is to make the game more more skill based and rewarding. And it could be done by making crafting little bit harder (but the basics still in range of newbies). Like You can make alchemy engine in a day. What if you had it as a reward for gears and 5 electrical doodads. Is this more rewarding? Yes. Will this ruin game for newbies? They would need to stay at science machine tech for longer and what? As addition look please at my answer to Adam_Webster there is a column about Grind/Skill system.

Now my comments of your... comments:

1 hour ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

1. This game is not about survival - Thats wrong

when you start out the game the game is about survival its just the longer you play the less the game becomes about survival

Ok. All the game there is the hunger bar. But if you are good there is not and if you are bad you will suffer. But I was talking about the good players

1 hour ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

3. You will figure out there is no goal. Only killing bosses - which is pretty much all about preparation.

first killing bosses is a goal so yes there is a goal.second the game isn't only about killing bosses some people like to megabase so people like to live out on the ocean.just because you're goal is to kill bosses doesn't mean its everyone else's goal

Yes. Everyone have their own goal. But I wanted to say game gives you no goals on its own. And the first logical goal you can come up with is try to beat the game - beat the bosses. In most games there is at least a quest log (even in minecraft) and if game tells you - "you can do anything you want" the first thing coming to my mind is - why the hack Im in this game - I want to have some goal. (This approach is not good for game for lone players)
 

 

1 hour ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

4. You must cheese the game all the time (Ancient guardian; Crab king;). The game literaly wants you to cheese.

name any other ones beside those two?also if were talking about killing ancient guardian using pillars that isn't a cheese its intended and crab king is a lot harder to "cheese"if were talking about using ice staffs

Bee Queen when solo. But what I mean is the game create bugs and says - now its normal. They could try to come with better idea how to fix Ancient Guardian and make Crab King killing player rather than boat. Its all about numbers and design.

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

7. Damage reduction is so imba (80%Football hat really?).

ok so you're telling that its bad design that you can't have two armors at the same time yet you're complaining about just one armor being too OP?

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

5. You have only one armor (Damage reduction is counted by the higher one). So you never need second armor. (you will have football hat or thulecite crown all the time). Why Klei? This is such a bad design (with DR instead of armor)

i haven't been on forums long(almost a year)and i only started playing DST during december so i might not be correct on this but im pretty sure in DS both armors count and you become basically invincible(correct me if im wrong)and in my opinion that sounds absolutely lame 

No. I'm basicaly not dumb. They could change DR (Damage Reduction) Values on each armor. I would love to have miner hat with 40% DR and a backpack with additional 10%. It would be super Helpfull for newbies (they use miner hat alot but it has no damage reduction itself). And Football hat could have 50% DR or 45%DR. Balance needs testing.

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

6. All enemies can be easily kitable. You just need to know how

that isn't a problem at all. in my opinion thats a good thing 

There is no skill and fun in killing these creatures. I would suggest make additional random range which would count with the attack speed of each enemy - The Beefalo have something around 5 seconds before it attacks again (I dont know it correctly) and if there was a random number between 0.35 and -0.25 then it would not be still the same for me. I would really need to care if its going to be 4.75 or 5.25 for additional damage. Do you understand? This is dynamic not static second timer and then run. (The harder enemy the higher random number maximum and minimum)


 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

8. There is no reward in killing bosses - Scalemail from dragonfly have 70%DR but football hat 80%

there definitely is (examples deerclops eyeball=eyebrella,scales=scaled furnace,bearger fur=insulated pack,etc)if there was no reward in killing bosses i most probably wouldn't even be playing DST right now 

Okay. You are right. The ROG Bosses are only rewarding bosses + Klause + Bee Queen (kind of) + maybe the Albatros.

  What I wanted to say is - Toadstool.

Lamps are useless - yes only for decoration. (I'm always talking about the survival and boss killing; If you have other goals then use it)

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
3 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

11. You acn heal by everything - butterflies gives 10 HP. Pierogi 40 HP and you need only egg and carrot and morsel. (or you can cook it with lichens)

not EVERYTHING but yeah you can heal from a lot of stuff and i don"T think that's a problem 

Welcome to the game of Donť Starve! Do you see those three icons on the top right of your screen. Its Health; Health and Health. Yes. Hunger does not exists and sanity too. How can you die? You cannot because of Pierogi!

  And I really thing this is true. If you know the game then you can get 40 Blue caps on day one in caves. One blue cap - 20 HP. How Could you even dare to die (when you are really good)?

I love the Idea of tent or a small combat heal but if Dragonfly deals 15 damage to you with football hat then it makes this I'm Tank game where you just stand and press F to kill it. Klei should decide if combat is about Armor or Healing (I would prefer Healing because its more skill heavy - Eating when you have time)

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

12. Some characters are overall better than others - thats stupid. (Wickerbottom; WX; Wolfgang; Wortox are best)

have you seen people opinions on the wickerbottom nerf?people didn't like it because they like the character just the way they are (well not everybody but most people)so if you;re suggesting nerfing characters well then thats a no from me 

I would like if every character was good for his own thing. I dont like to see every game Wolfgang or WX. And Wortox is really ridiculous. My friend said - "This game become pay to win game when Wortox arrived". I dont say all of them must be balanced. But If there is so much advantage in A-tier characters it Feels bad when you like to play Wurt and then you cannot do as well as other characters. Wolfgang - Like double damage all the time (yes all the time). Dark sword - 68 dmg -> 136 dmg/hit.

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

13. You dont use most items - they are useless (boomerang; darts; rainometer; feather hat; napsack....)

i completely disagree first boomerang is needed for malbatross(one of my favorite bosses)darts are very good if mass produced. rainometer is really good because it tells you when its gonna rain. napsack can be used to obtain tons of shroom skin

I guess Dearclops is your favorite boss and Quacken in Shipwrecket.

  So you dont use boomerang - Malbatros only? It has only one use. And you think this is good. Mass produced darts - ok its kind of scifi but its the grindy style to kill things. Ok. Rainometer is not good. I would make Threat-o-meter instead and it would have use in seeing hound waves coming or bosees. napsack? How many times you used it tell me.

What about rabbit earmuffs? Is that a very used item. Or a beefalo hat? Or have you ever crafted rain coat? Or a night light? Or one single telelocator focus? Or a fire dart?

These things could easily get use for everyone. They would need to change crafting or just number somewhere. I would love Beefalo hat to be an armor - better than football hat. Or summer frest to have 40% Damage reduction. My favorite idea is to make Weapon class of ranged - but boomerang and darts would need to change crafting and damage. But it would be a brand new damage class and you could chooose melee or ranged.. or traps. There can be done so much things with it but now no one is using dapper vest for example. Because why? Thermal stones and football hat does everything you need.

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

14. And walls are completely useless (only for fire cheeses or Drygonfly)

thats kind of a insult to people who build mega bases and i disagree 

Yes. But again I'm talking in survival and boss-killing sphere (and I think I was doyng rock lobster-spider farm in caves with stone walls). But I mean the wall system is broken because everything automaticaly attacks them and they have so low hitpoints.

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

15. Ancient Library gives you free 4 stacks of full thulecite

are you sure?because i don't remember a place called the ancient library but i could be wrong but i highly doubt you got four stacks of thelecite from one location

Sorry I was talking about ancient archives. There are walls completely unprotected and gives you 1-4 thulecite fragment each (or something near it)

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

16. Lunar cave biome is broken 

in what way?

There are no enemies (when turned off) and there is no sanity drain

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

17. Moon Islands are completely useless. For now.

completely disagree first glass cutters and axes are really good (for ancient fuelweaver and toadstool respectively)and some people (not me)live for stone fruit and they use nothing but stone fruit (which you obtain from lunar island)so calling lunar island useless is just wrong 

Yes. There are some uses. But you agree propably just because you like the idea (and the albatros). You visit this place once - create stacks and stacks of axes and cutters and then you are happy you never need to go there again. (its very boring land with no thread like a tutorial island - I hope you get what I mean)

 

2 hours ago, stranger again said:
4 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

Be well.

awww thank you 

Thank you for your thank you. I hope I wrote it best I could

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I think this is important to mention, who decides how to play DST is the player himself, for example: a challenge of only being able to heal using healing salves sounds quite curious. Setting yourself challenges is a good idea to not only improve as a player, but also to see Don't Starve in a different way.!

And don't forget about the mods!
Try uncompromising mode! The changes to the world and the characters are quite a lot and I think they give a more challenging game experience, in addition to giving some uses to those forgotten items.

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3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Wow that list have that many mistakes that isnt worth the time to explain it...

I will keep standing for my opinion then.

 

5 hours ago, Adam_Webster said:

I think this is important to mention, who decides how to play DST is the player himself, for example: a challenge of only being able to heal using healing salves sounds quite curious. Setting yourself challenges is a good idea to not only improve as a player, but also to see Don't Starve in a different way.!

And don't forget about the mods!
Try uncompromising mode! The changes to the world and the characters are quite a lot and I think they give a more challenging game experience, in addition to giving some uses to those forgotten items.

You got it absolutely right. But if you look at any game. It has rules and a goal. And Klei as a nice game developer should know and copy the pattern of any other successful game. That means make the game not relly on mods itself and make its own system to do things and not just randomly add updates (its not that random but still. Klei don't really solve gameplay problems like meatballs (to make game overall better))

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2 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

It has rules and a goal

i think this video might interest you 

im not gonna reply to everything you said that would take another half an hour so ill just leave my point here(but thanks for making a long reply it shows that you care)

look man i get most of your points but i just don't agree that klei should change DST so heavily and make the game entirely different when right now the game is doing really well 

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3 hours ago, stranger again said:

look man i get most of your points but i just don't agree that klei should change DST so heavily and make the game entirely different when right now the game is doing really well 

I haven't said it is not going well. I say it can be better. And I know it could be done easily just by changing numbers (no effort for programmers). But it needs a strong designer.
  But yes people are happy because it is working but it could be better. Thats my whole point.

 

3 hours ago, stranger again said:
6 hours ago, jardaxiiiiik said:

has rules and a goal

i think this video might interest you 

1st - There are limited sources

2nd - I think there is wrong correlation

When random guys make videos it do not really mean they say true. Even if they try.

@stranger again Thank you for this discussion. Be well.

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