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How many Winona's Catapults powered by one G.E.Merator?


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Note that some arguments here involve the mod Geometric Placement and Round Deploy for exact placing of Winona's structures, but should be theoretically possible without mods with clever pixel-hunting. Or at least, I am assuming this is the case, or else it might become an argument that such mods are not "Quality of Life". That would be an oof. 

Also, I might be about to put the "Geometric" in "Geometric Placement" with the incoming paragraph. 

The motive to this question is that I am curious about the highest number of powerable Winona's Catapults per unit area to get the maximal amount of damage, given a limited number of Winona's Generators/G.E.Merators. Applications include a solo Dragonfly scale farm. There are two ways to pack the circular hitboxes around each structure. As far as I can tell, the distance between placing Catapults and generators are the same as vice-versa and among themselves. (Note that this is distinct from the case of Crock Pots and Ice Boxes, where the Crock Pots are very sensitive when they are placed near pre-existing Ice Boxes but not vice-versa.) There are two ways to pack these circular hitboxes. A regular tiling of the 2-D plane or a regular polygon with side lengths equal to the diameter of the hitboxes. To simplify this further, i tried thinking about a regular tiling of the 2-D plane with each vertex being where one would place either a Winona's Catapult or Winona's G.E.Merator. It is known that square tilings are worse than hexagonal tilings in terms of vertexes per area given a radius. Besides, the diagonals of the squares in a square tiling are too large to be powered, resulting in each generator powering at most 4 Catapults. For a hexagonal tiling, you can achieve 6 Catapults being powered by one generator. Though it appears when placing a Catapult that the power will barely reach qbout half of the members of the hexagonal ring of 12 Catapults outside the inner 6, this is evidently not the case. The tilings are the best bet for filling an arbitrarily large area with Catapults, of which the  but this does not produce arbitrarily large DpS due to the limited range of each Catapult. 

If the number of generators is limited, but the Catapults can be as many as are able to be powered, the highest damage setup would be regular polygons centered at a generator with side lengths equal to the diameter of hitboxes.* We have already seen the case of 6 with a hexagonal arrangement of Catapults, which powers just fine. Using Round Deploy to place structures in a regular heptagon, it is clear that all seven Catapults can be powered. However, with a nonagon of Winona's Catapults, my one test revealed that only 5 of the 9 were able to be powered. It may be the case that the distance from the generators to the Catapults wasn't as small as possible given how the mod works, but they should all be the same distance away. This begs the question of whether there is some precedence of which Catapults are able at such a fringe distance from the generator. 

The real questions:

1) Given 1 G.E.Merator, what's the maximal number of catapults that can be powered?

2) For 3 G.E.Merators, what's the maximal number of catapults that can all target the same point in space?

3*: Does the pattern for this configuration reveal regular polygons around each generator? If so, how many Catapults does each generator get? 

4) What is the explanation for why some but not all 9 of the Catapults in a nonagon get powered by the G.E.Merator in its center? 

For the third, I am wondering if I can use trigonometry, but I am not sure with how finicky whether something gets powered can be at seemingly equal far distances. 

TL;DR Math in my DST? It is more likely than you think. 

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The max I can get is 8, I have to turn off geometric placement to fit them. The circle aoe around the catapult has to be completely in the aoe of the GEMerator for it to be powered up and I believe it needs to have an unobstructed path to place properly. As in catapults cannot block other catapults. That being said, there is a way for multiple catapults to be placed at the same point according to this video: 

I have not personally tested it though.

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2 hours ago, Fictitious said:

The max I can get is 8, I have to turn off geometric placement to fit them. The circle aoe around the catapult has to be completely in the aoe of the GEMerator for it to be powered up and I believe it needs to have an unobstructed path to place properly. As in catapults cannot block other catapults. That being said, there is a way for multiple catapults to be placed at the same point according to this video: 

I have not personally tested it though.

I've seen that video from Splorange. It implies that for any arrangement of Catapults, it can be doubled. This is good for DpS, but since it changes nothing about how the catapults themselves are arranged, I would prefer to think of it as a times 2 modifier applied after other optimizations, so as to guide the discussion. Thanks for bringing it up, though! It is pretty important and intriguing. 

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I think you should pay a visit to my post about Winona, but I will attempt to answer your questions:

1.- 8 catapults can be powered by a single generator, it doesn´t matter the type. The type of generator determines the time of usage. You can use Geometric Placement or not. You need to put them as tight as possible though. And each catapult must be completely inside the generator power radius.

2.- Depends on the size of the target. Supposing that you put the sets of catapults in a triangle way (each generator at the center of each peak) A large target like Toadstool can be hit by all 24 catapults (and potentially more if given more sets of catapults). However, for smaller targets it is inconsistent for the furthermost catapults. At a slighter less DPS but more reliable way to hit the target efficiently you should use 6 catapults (building them like an octagon like shape, excluding the fartests 2). So 18 catapults will be firing at all times at a single center point. Another point to make is that targets may not always be on that exact center.

3.- Use Geometric Placement mod, it will help you for many utilities. You do not need to do fancy math. What you need to do for placing catapults is to put the first catapult as far away as possible but still be powered by the generator, if done correctly, both structures will be lighted up. For the next catapult, go clockwise or counterclockwise and put it as close as the first catapult as possible, as far away from the generator but still being powered. Continue that way until you cannot fit more catapults, it should be 8.

4.- As said before, the 3 unpowered catapults probably were not engulfed by the generator radius.

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44 minutes ago, maquinarara1 said:

I think you should pay a visit to my post about Winona, but I will attempt to answer your questions:

1.- 8 catapults can be powered by a single generator, it doesn´t matter the type. The type of generator determines the time of usage. You can use Geometric Placement or not. You need to put them as tight as possible though. And each catapult must be completely inside the generator power radius.

2.- Depends on the size of the target. Supposing that you put the sets of catapults in a triangle way (each generator at the center of each peak) A large target like Toadstool can be hit by all 24 catapults (and potentially more if given more sets of catapults). However, for smaller targets it is inconsistent for the furthermost catapults. At a slighter less DPS but more reliable way to hit the target efficiently you should use 6 catapults (building them like an octagon like shape, excluding the fartests 2). So 18 catapults will be firing at all times at a single center point. Another point to make is that targets may not always be on that exact center.

3.- Use Geometric Placement mod, it will help you for many utilities. You do not need to do fancy math. What you need to do for placing catapults is to put the first catapult as far away as possible but still be powered by the generator, if done correctly, both structures will be lighted up. For the next catapult, go clockwise or counterclockwise and put it as close as the first catapult as possible, as far away from the generator but still being powered. Continue that way until you cannot fit more catapults, it should be 8.

4.- As said before, the 3 unpowered catapults probably were not engulfed by the generator radius.

This is my set up for hound attacks, frog rain and deerclops (bearger was captured, muahahaha)

dst defense set up.png

This is my set up for Beequeen (extremelly efficient)dst beekiller set up.png

My Dragonfly setup, notice that the bottom set only has 5 catapults, the other 3 couldn´t hit the boss if it were on top of the flingo, which was my intended centerdst dfly set up.png

And my antlion set up, horrible set up but gets the job done reliably. They had to be so far apart of the center because the boss raises sandcastles that destroys constructions.dst antlion set up.png

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I don't have a screenshot because I mostly just play on public servers, but I did rush 18 catapults on 2 generators to take down Dragonfly when a Wigfrid asked for help to kill it. That makes it 9 catapults each generator. Having a backpack full of rocks for 10 days wasn't fun, but it was an uncoordinated game so I just had the materials ready to lay them down on request. I don't recommend it though as mining for 300 rocks at the start of the game is just no fun.

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2 hours ago, ryvrdrgn14 said:

I don't have a screenshot because I mostly just play on public servers, but I did rush 18 catapults on 2 generators to take down Dragonfly when a Wigfrid asked for help to kill it. That makes it 9 catapults each generator. Having a backpack full of rocks for 10 days wasn't fun, but it was an uncoordinated game so I just had the materials ready to lay them down on request. I don't recommend it though as mining for 300 rocks at the start of the game is just no fun.

Interesting, did you use a generator or a GEMerator? Someone in a public server told me he usually can rush bee queen in 18 days using catapults, and then repeat every 20 days afterwards.

I'd like to try something like that, maybe paired with a maxwell collecting all the stones while the winona player gathers all the grass, silk and twigs.

5 hours ago, Plentelle said:

This means that for 3 generators, thats 27 catapults. For one generator including structure stacking, that's 18. As for the placement mod I used, it was Round Deploy. 

The funny thing about structure stacking is that it is not limited to 2 players, so technically with 5 Winonas you can have 5 catapults in the same spot (maybe even 6 or more, haven't tried more than 5). Nice tip on the mod, I'll try that out!

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8 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Interesting, did you use a generator or a GEMerator? Someone in a public server told me he usually can rush bee queen in 18 days using catapults, and then repeat every 20 days afterwards.

I'd like to try something like that, maybe paired with a maxwell collecting all the stones while the winona player gathers all the grass, silk and twigs.

 

Normal generators that use Nitre. I usually have zero help since it's a public game with randoms I don't know. I do all the farming for stone, grass, silk and also feeding myself so I have no time to get gems in the first 20 days. You usually end up with like 80 nitre after farming the rocks so it's not really an issue.

The earliest I've had the materials ready for 18 catapults is on day 16. I am sure it will be faster if you are not competing with randoms for resources and your friends actually help you.

Also note that I cannot put down my materials in a public game to free up inventory space because other people will get my stuff without asking. This means once I get the materials I'm pretty much locked into not farming anything else due to lack of space until I decide to put the catapults down somewhere.

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