Gulp fish cooling equivalence

[avc15]

Hi guys, I put my old results in a spoiler because I missed some relevant info. What I've discovered is that when gulp fish poop ice they do significantly less work, much less than you can explain by just deletion of specific heat.

Gulp fish do a great deal more cooling work when you put them in warm water. About 3 times more. Will have to try again with actually hot water near the top of their tolerable living range.

In a pool of cold pwater at -5C I discovered they cool at a rate of about 5 kDTU/sec per gulp fish. But, see experiment #2 below.

 

How much does a gulp fish actually cool? I've asked that question a few times, but I can never find the answer on google. So I ran an experiment.

 

The result:

110kg of water at -7.5C (seen this bug in actual gameplay too)

196 kg of pwater at -7C

3658 kg ice at -3.5C

trace amount of PO2

(small amount of mass deletion, about 35 kg)

Here are DTUs to heat everything back up to 5C (best way to look at it, put heat back in)

So, er, it takes (edit) 250 gulp fish to provide the same amount of cooling as one A/T that uses super coolant.

(edit) ~135 gulp fish to equal the cooling of one A/T using pwater.

1 gulp fish is about equivalent to the net cooling for an ice machine.

These aren't the results I was hoping for, but I'll put it up here anyway in case someone else wants to know.

(the results become much harder to interpret if you're processing colder pwater, because of the change in specific heat at temps starting below freezing)

 

Edit: If you keep your gulp fish in warmer water, they cool 7.3 kDTU/s, so, 11 of them would be about 1 AETN. Starting to look not as bad, but, still need a cold tank for breeding.

 

[Z0366]

Thats... truely much lower than I thought. Thanks for the result.

[avc15]

1 hour ago, Z0366 said:

Thats... truely much lower than I thought. Thanks for the result.

One thing to bear in mind is that gulp fishes never really stand on their own as a cooling situation, not even converting slush to ice. (and even that has debatable value from a cooling standpoint since doing so deletes heat capacity)

At best they're always the very last step of the process and offload your primary cooler somewhat. And, how many gulp fish you keep will have to do with how fast you want to process water, not how much cooling you're trying to get.

So for instance - if you needed 1kg/sec for a bristle berry farm, your source of pwater was at a temperature of 50C, and your end goal was to output 28C water:

- you'd maintain a tank of 5-6 gulp fish to process that 5kg/'sec.

- Your 5 gulp fish would always cool for 36.5 kDTU/sec (the working tank is at 28C)

- Total cooling to get 1kg/sec of pwater from 50C to 28C is 92 kDTU/sec; your gulp fish do 36.5 kDTU/sec of work;

- You just reduced your cooling load (and amount of heat you have to pump out) by 40%

 

I think this is the most useful way to think about it; the machinery equivalence isn't really easy to put into practice.

The most troublesome part of this is that the working tank is warm, your working school of gulp fish won't be stable and you'll have to spend algae to keep breeding them. Not sure about that.

[Z0366]

make sense. However, I think it is rather unstable solution, if you keep gulp fish at high temperature, eventually they waill lay normal fish eggs and destabilize the cooling loop.

[avc15]

1 minute ago, Z0366 said:

make sense. However, I think it is rather unstable solution, if you keep gulp fish at high temperature, eventually they waill lay normal fish eggs and destabilize the cooling loop.

yeah like i said you need a second tank for breeding. I'd keep it in clean water at 5C.

Would cost at least some algae.

Seems complicated.

[biopon]

Wait, what am I missing here? I thought gulp fish simply converted pwater to water, the temperature did not change. If so, and you keep them in sub-zero pwater, the resulting water will eventually turn to ice, and that has a lower SHC so you're not actually getting any cooling effect, but the opposite.

2 hours ago, avc15 said:

Seems complicated.

Assuming I missed something re. cooling, it wouldn't be hard to manage the fish. You can keep gulpfish in pwater up to 25C; when they lay pacu eggs you ship those to a sub-5C clean water tank, and you ship the eventual gulp fish eggs from there back to the pwater tank. There's still a small chance for tropical eggs so you'd need to maintain another tank for those :/ But no algae needed, just an initial population of fish, and shipping the eggs around.

[avc15]

1 hour ago, biopon said:

Wait, what am I missing here? I thought gulp fish simply converted pwater to water, the temperature did not change. 

200 g/s converted and also with a lowered temp.

Now, the clean water will quickly flow to the top equalizing temp with the surrounding pool, so it's really more of a gradual heat removal from the whole pool.

---

Okay, this was all wrong too. It seems like the gulp fish emit clean water at their body temperature, and their body temperature gradually changes to a few degrees below their surroundings.

Second time - 14.7 kDTU/sec

Third time - cooled to 287.6K or by 12.4C for an average rate of 10.4 kDTU/sec.

Fourth time - cooled to 291K or by 9C for an average rate of 7.5 kDTU/sec

Fifth time - cooled to 293.6K or by 6.4C, average rate 5.35 kDTU/sec

To get an actual result I'll have to look at a gulp fish across its entire life span in a pool that's temperature regulated by an A/T loop. The experiment I've been running is flawed.

 

This water, I painted in as 300K pwater. The gulf fish cleaned it all, and it's now 276k.

But wait, the fish started at 261K and now they're 272K. What happens if I run it again? (does the temperature of the fish affect how much they cool - I am hoping 'just a very small amount')

Okay, so yes, the temp of the gulp fish has an effect. But after they've warmed up to near their surrounding temp, they still lowered the temp of the water to 282.4 (averaging the 4 tiles) or by 17.6 Celsius. This result is *significantly* better than when I was letting them poop ice. And, no mass deletion. Let's see:

4000 kg of water * 17.6C delta T * 4.179 csp = 294,000 kDTU.

4000 kg of water / 0.2 kg/sec = 20,000 sec for 1 gulp fish to process

294,000 kDTU/20,000 sec = 14.7 kDTU per gulp fish.

Under these conditions, 5 gulp fish provide almost the same cooling as an AETN. 

 

1 hour ago, biopon said:

If ... you keep them in sub-zero pwater, the resulting water will eventually turn to ice, and that has a lower SHC so you're not actually getting any cooling effect, but the opposite.

Yes like I mentioned, keeping them in sub-zero pwater causes them to delete specific heat capacity, and so they don't do any real work.

But with this second experiment, the gulp fish did substantially more work. If you keep gulp fish in warm water, they each cool at a rate of 14.7 kDTU/sec. 5 gulp fish provide the same cooling as one AETN. 40 gulp fish provide the same cooling as one A/T that uses pwater as primary coolant, but you'd need to actually be converting & consuming 20 kg/sec of pwater for that build to matter.

[biopon]

3 minutes ago, avc15 said:

poop ice

You have to admit that looks *significantly* more awesome.

3 minutes ago, avc15 said:

14.7 kDTU/sec

That is really good. Better than a pre-nerf wheeze. And all you need to do is move some eggs around between 2 pools. Well, 3 if you want to protect against the odd tropical egg. And of course supply pwater, but that tends to not be an issue. I'll have to try this on a new map I started, this is way too complicated (in other words, cool) to pass up on; plus it's something extra to do for all the fish you probably keep anyway for lime. Honestly I have them above my great hall on my old map, in a tropical morph, just because I wanted them to provide some extra benefit, and it's fine - but it seems like gulp fish are better.