goatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 As shown in spoiler Spoiler No automation, only regular piping. Just a demo here Setup Steps Build 6 reservoirs in a row, and have 5 of them filled with 5t clean water Rough Math: 1. lavatory produce 11.7 kg water with 105,000 food poison (FP), we know that water in pipe come in 10 kg packets, let's assume all water is transferred in 10 kg packets for simplified calculation. 11.7 kg water with 105000 FP mean every 10 kg, there is 105000/11.7*10=89743 FP, about 90,000 FP in conclusion, Pwater output by lavatory have 90,000 FP per 10 kg packets. 2. FP transferred from reservoir is transferred proportionally. Imagine a reservoir with 5t water and 10,000,000 FP, 10 kg from it will carry (10kg/5t) of it 10,000,000 * 10kg / 5t = 10,000,000 * 10/5000 = 20,000 FP. 3. There is reservoir A, B, C, D, E, F. Among them, BCDEF all have 5 t clean water, for every 10 kg packets entering B, B is getting 20,000 FP, but its output water carries FP only 20,000 * 10kg / 5t = 40 FP in every 10 kg packets. those 40 FP entering C, but exiting with 40*10kg/5t, which is 0 FP 4. Of course, in real game it doesn't happen like this, since germy water goes into A continuously, it will add up probably to 1,000,000,000 FP, but for BCDEF, every following reservoir will have only 1/500 the amount of germ of previous reservoir. so if A is 1,000,000,000, B is 2,000,000, C is 4000, D is 8, which takes seconds to kill the germs by liquid, but then E, F will be clean water. You get the idea. To Deal With More Germs just ad more reservoirs. Or have same amount of reservoirs but reduce packets size by valves. Edit added: More Accurate Math Spoiler So the entering FP is always 90,000, when FP that's leaving the tank is less than 90,000, the tank will always gain FP ignore natural decay, so the leaving FP has to be 90,000 too in order to reach an equilibrium, at which point, the total FP should be 90,000/(10 kg / 5 t) = 90,000 * 500, = 45,000,000. For tank ABCDEF, since output from A is eventually 90,000, which is the same as output from water sieve, its functionality is like obsolete. As time goes by, same thing will happen to BCDEF, so the system will fail. So I think I have to include the 3% decay here. For a tank of 5t water, there is 500 packets of 10 kg water, each originally has 90,000 FP. the difference is that packet 1's FP: 90,000 packet 2's FP: 90,000 * 97% packet 3's FP: 90,000 * 97% * 97% ... packet's 500 FP: 90,000 * 0.97^499 we add them up, sum = original's FP * (1+0.97 + 0.97^2 + 0.97^3 + 0.97^4 + ... + 0.97^499) = original's FP * (1-0.97^500)/(1-0.97) = original's FP * 33. In conclusion, the max FP a tank can have is entering FP * 33. tank A's max FP = 90,000 * 33, its max leaving FP per packet = 90,000 * 33 / 500, the decay rate becomes 33/500 instead of 1/500. In the case of toilet, let the number of tanks = w, our goal is 90,000 * (33/500) ^ w < 1. w = log(33/500)(1/90000) = 4.2 take ceiling, which means 5 tanks of clean water is needed. + 1 empty buffer tank, in total 6 as minimun to handle non-stop incoming germy water, which is a heavier load than real game needs Math that include chlorine Spoiler So I was trying to find chlorine disinfecting rate, but couldn't find it, but i remember its half life is 11 seconds. I guess the decay rate is 0.5^(1/11). the ratio entering packet's FP : total tank FP = (1-0.5^(1/11)^500) / (1-0.5^(1/11)) = 16.37 the ratio between tanks = 16.37 / 500 min number of clean water tanks needed = log (16.37/500)(1/90000) = 3.33, ceiling to 4, plus 1 empty tank, so in chlorine 5 tanks are probably needed Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, goatt said: Math: Clap, Clap, Clap. I approve. Nice geometric series going on here. I'm gonna have to require ONI for college algebra students now. Nice use of rounding to zero. Haven't tried it yet, but I plan to. Thanks for the post. However, on more thought, here's what will happen. Over time, the first tank will equalize till you have 90000 FP entering and 90,000 (minus whatever is killed each second by clean water) leaving. The content of FP will continue to grow in the first tank until it reaches this equilibrium. At that point, the same thing will start to happen with tank 2, where the contents will continue to grow in the second tank until it reaches equilibrium. This may take quite a few cycles (several hundred) or may take very few (have to play with it), but eventually this method will fail, unless you just keep on adding more tanks to offset the inevitable equalization. Eventually, the tanks will do nothing towards eliminating FP. They will all reach an equilibrium, though it will take time. We could use difference equations or differential equations to analyze this (gosh, another 2 different courses - math modeling and ODEs). Wow. The uses of ONI in education are endless. (Of course, all the above assumes that the FP germs can continue to grow in numbers. If they have a population cap in a 5T tank, then this extra factor could make your system work and the number of tanks needed could be predicted for any amount of germs - another great add on to the model.) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 One last thought @goatt. Chlorine can easily kill 90000 FP germs per second. Take your entire setup above, and put it all in Chlorine (it might take another tank or 2). Even if FP has no population cap, and even with tanks equalizing, since chlorine kills a percentage of germs per second, you will eventually guarantee no FP leaves. It would remove all automation and only require a chlorine room. If automation is a lag issue, this would remove the lag and still get you clean water. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted March 24, 2019 Author Share Posted March 24, 2019 Thx bruh, 24 minutes ago, mathmanican said: Nice use of rounding to zero. This is a dangerous thing to say cuz some people think of rounding to zero as exploit. I would say the last germy tank has 1 germ, but it dies of in 1 second. lel. 25 minutes ago, mathmanican said: equilibrium I didn't want to calculate equilibrium, but now you brought it up, I suddenly got an idea. Ima give a try Spoiler So the entering FP is always 90,000, when FP that's leaving the tank is less than 90,000, the tank will always gain FP ignore natural decay, so the leaving FP has to be 90,000 too in order to reach an equilibrium, at which point, the total FP should be 90,000/(10 kg / 5 t) = 90,000 * 500, = 45,000,000. For tank ABCDEF, since output from A is eventually 90,000, which is the same as output from water sieve, its functionality is like obsolete. As time goes by, same thing will happen to BCDEF, so the system will fail. So I think I have to include the 3% decay here. For a tank of 5t water, there is 500 packets of 10 kg water, each originally has 90,000 FP. the difference is that packet 1's FP: 90,000 packet 2's FP: 90,000 * 97% packet 3's FP: 90,000 * 97% * 97% ... packet's 500 FP: 90,000 * 0.97^499 we add them up, sum = original's FP * (1+0.97 + 0.97^2 + 0.97^3 + 0.97^4 + ... + 0.97^499) = original's FP * (1-0.97^500)/(1-0.97) = original's FP * 33. In conclusion, the max FP a tank can have is entering FP * 33. tank A's max FP = 90,000 * 33, its max leaving FP per packet = 90,000 * 33 / 500, the decay rate becomes 33/500 instead of 1/500. In the case of toilet, let the number of tanks = w, our goal is 90,000 * (33/500) ^ w < 1. w = log(33/500)(1/90000) = 4.2 take ceiling, which means 5 tanks of clean water is needed. I can't believe I can still do math. So I think 5 tanks of clean water in the beginning can handle the toughest toilet task, of course with 1 empty reservoir in the head. I guess I'm lucky. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 This unfolds like a premium nerdbattle! ^^ Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted March 24, 2019 Author Share Posted March 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, mathmanican said: One last thought @goatt. Chlorine can easily kill 90000 FP germs per second. Take your entire setup above, and put it all in Chlorine (it might take another tank or 2). Even if FP has no population cap, and even with tanks equalizing, since chlorine kills a percentage of germs per second, you will eventually guarantee no FP leaves. It would remove all automation and only require a chlorine room. If automation is a lag issue, this would remove the lag and still get you clean water. you are right, it will save some space of water tanks! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, goatt said: This is a dangerous thing to say cuz some people think of rounding to zero as exploit. Oh, I said it on purpose. Very intentionally. But I'll use this approach regardless of the naysayers and exploit witch hunters. 4 minutes ago, Oozinator said: This unfolds like a premium nerdbattle! No meme? I'm disappointed. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, mathmanican said: No meme? I'm disappointed. It was hidden in plain sight, like the illuminati! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1168999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Oozinator said: It was hidden in plain sight, like the illuminati! I'm so blind! Gonna have to get some special glasses. Thanks for all the fun times @Oozinator. When this game leaves early release, what are we going to do for fun? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted March 24, 2019 Author Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, mathmanican said: Oh, I said it on purpose. Very intentionally. But I'll use this approach regardless of the naysayers and exploit witch hunters. XD. I'm scared of witch hunters. protect me pls Spoiler So I was trying to find chlorine disinfecting rate, but couldn't find it, but i remember its half life is 11 seconds. I guess the decay rate is 0.5^(1/11). the ratio entering packet's FP : total tank FP = (1-0.5^(1/11)^500) / (1-0.5^(1/11)) = 16.37 the ratio between tanks = 16.37 / 500 min number of clean water tanks needed = log (16.37/500)(1/90000) = 3.33, ceiling to 4, plus 1 empty tank, so in chlorine 5 tanks are probably needed So I guess in chlorine, this system will need 5 tanks for handling non-stop continuous germy toilet water. But in real game, that's not gonna happen, I guess 1 or 2 reservoirs are probably enough. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, goatt said: protect me pls Just stare em down with your one eye! They'll flee in terror. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, mathmanican said: Thanks for all the fun times @Oozinator. When this game leaves early release, what are we going to do for fun? Thank you for your kind words All in the name of science! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted March 24, 2019 Author Share Posted March 24, 2019 @Oozinator printing pod is new God Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, goatt said: @Oozinator printing pod is new God Mhh i do not really like the change, but i understand the additional intended addictive psychological impact behind such stuff in games. Some sort of hidden gambling minigame, like daily chests / similar. Idle clicker something. Perhaps it's the first step on a "portal/restart" mechanic. Settle on different asteroids, send stuff through portals, like dupes move with tubes. They could shrink mapsize then again and add additional biomes without problem. Nah i would not like it. I thought while supporting ONI in EA it would be like a "settlers" game with some sort of scientific background. Now it's so casual and raising germ/food level (harder game) does not change "sucking game mechanics" for me. ONI is so far away from releaseready, but you know.. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104140-primitive-way-of-sterilizing-toilet-water/#findComment-1169010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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