Nerf to summer watering can strategy

[Walrusst]

I honestly like it even if its on the level of being so strong it kinda centralized the game about a specific migration pattern yearly for a long time. (Or in public servers, people would scold you for trying to base postern or PK, as the oasis was always preferred. (Referring to the desert goggle plague from the last page.)

Makes me wish that it was slightly easier to start the larger than average tree because its that weird counter meta option that's extremely cool in all seasons but effectively enslaves one of the players to acting as a base guard for a season to set it up after rushing glommer and pearl.....

Edited Sunday at 06:33 PM by Walrusst

[Cruvimaster]

22 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

When everyone was basing near the oasis I remember desert goggles were like a plague.

But it seems like nowadays people only want to use Eyebrella. It’s like the modern plague. It reminds me of that idea that a boss design is only good if it can be beaten with a ham bat.

[Walrusst]

21 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

But it seems like nowadays people only want to use Eyebrella. It’s like the modern plague. It reminds me of that idea that a boss design is only good if it can be beaten with a ham bat.

I'd say this is more a symptom of the ham bats relative isolation in the alchemy engine pool as the one major weapon that is abundant and effective.

I'd love if a counter meta weapon that was weaker, tailored to fighting enemies in the 200 hp range, and safer to use was made out of one of the other blatantly useless alchemy engine weapons for players learning the game.

Say the fencing sword took a slightly rarer, abundant but still readily available resource like moon rocks, had double durability, did 42 damage, and had a 25%-33% reach bonus (Whips are 2x for reference. Doesn't have to be reach, could be something weird like the basket hilt giving 25% armor.) Its slower attack speed would be compensated for with slightly less punishing kiting patterns. Currently its just a tool for remedying player frustrations with fence placement, but if it had a combat utility beyond just being a cheap way of recycling spears....

You'd see less of a centralized combat focus of ham bat/glass cutter or nothing. (With rabid hatred being thrown towards unconventional fighters like walter, wanda, and wendy for not being permanently locked to a single combat style which I feel is undeserved.) One weapon isn't enough to fix this, but developing a reward system that makes diverse options enjoyable takes time and effort and a lot of care to make sure you don't overshoot your targets. The morning star buffs definitely were a good start of this tho.

Just like how nerfing watering cans doesn't meaningfully fix how cold works... Getting back on the main track as long as you have gold you'll probably never struggle to get cold.

Edited Sunday at 07:07 PM by Walrusst

[AliceShiki]

I certainly would like a Fencing Sword buff... I feel like the lower attack speed really really hurts it, and the extra range doesn't compensate for it.

42 dmg would be a nice start, but as long as the attack speed is terrible, I feel like the weapon would still be terrible... I wish it simply had the same attack speed as normal weapons, really. That would make it a nice upgrade over the Spear, but would still be weaker than Tentacle Spike, even if the extra range would make it fill a different niche.

[Walrusst]

14 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I certainly would like a Fencing Sword buff... I feel like the lower attack speed really really hurts it, and the extra range doesn't compensate for it.

42 dmg would be a nice start, but as long as the attack speed is terrible, I feel like the weapon would still be terrible... I wish it simply had the same attack speed as normal weapons, really. That would make it a nice upgrade over the Spear, but would still be weaker than Tentacle Spike, even if the extra range would make it fill a different niche.

So its attack animation is actually weird in that it actually is sped up by you kiting  is the thing, it force builds good habits since your damage over time is less penalized by you actually choosing to move instead of continuing to pummel. You get an extra attack off per pummel cycle since the enemy has to walk to actually hit you, but you lose an attack from the attack speed. Its....

Not as bad as you'd expect, on my old dead computer I did actually use a private mod to test these tweaked stats out with newbies once or twice with the note it was better but not explaining how to see if they'd get a feel for it. My values are very much a cautious defensive decision due to the uncertainty introduced by properties that aren't 100% standard.

[DVGMedia]

8 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

So its attack animation is actually weird in that it actually is sped up by you kiting  is the thing, it force builds good habits since your damage over time is less penalized by you actually choosing to move instead of continuing to pummel. You get an extra attack off per pummel cycle since the enemy has to walk to actually hit you, but you lose an attack from the attack speed. Its....

Not as bad as you'd expect, on my old dead computer I did actually use a private mod to test these tweaked stats out with newbies once or twice with the note it was better but not explaining how to see if they'd get a feel for it. My values are very much a cautious defensive decision due to the uncertainty introduced by properties that aren't 100% standard.

would play into the role of actual fencing.  And we need more things like that. Things that do it  differently  while achieving the same goal. 
Its kind of why i hate when klei makes random nerfs like this because  its not what the devs intended. 
Alot of the times it feels like the klei devs only want you to play a certain way. And if its not done that way its seen as an exploit or a bug.  

As we can see on here at least those that have posted they never even used the strategy. And they just coment let the will of the devs be as they are. 

But I remember a time when they made it so the player couldn't give monster meat to birds for eggs.  And that change didn't even last a day.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Walrusst said:

Say the fencing sword took a slightly rarer, abundant but still readily available resource like moon rocks

It is for rotating fences. It is not a weapon. 

[DinsdaleP]

13 hours ago, RubLog6 said:

I have to kill a raid boss to stay cool? Didn't you make two posts on 2 different platforms 5 days ago about how you were having a hard time with wx-78 and asking tips for willow (easy mode character, up there with wiggy, whom you also seemed to enjoy). I'm not ridiculing you, just have a little bit of sympathy.

I actually gave tips on WX-78 to multiple people and posted about him becoming BORING after you get the Shadow Maul, because you can just hold F in basically any fight. Y'know, the same weapon that requires AFW kill before spring so you can go on a Moose/Goose extermination. I've already done a complete run with Willow when she was released (hell, I've done so with pretty much all characters), I was looking on tips on how to make it more fun - the same reason I enjoy Wigfrid, btw. She's mechanically uncomplicated and just pure fun, though getting the Charged Elding Spear with her is kind of a pain and an extremely annoying chore.

And... killing a raid boss to completely nullify a whole deadly season, turning it into a second autumn? That kinda seems like a fair deal to be honest.

14 hours ago, RubLog6 said:

Do this again but c_skip(5), you do not overheat the first day of summer. Set boulders to less. No going to mosaic, there is no gold there. Assume it's already been mined by other people. Graves are not allowed either, they've already been dug. Unsure if this command will work with world temperature, so instead, join a server in the middle of summer. Not early summer. No one is giving you gears on day 1 at spawn. Btw ruins is raided and shadow rift is on. Cave rain is unlikely, but hey, it can happen.

Okay, so you go down to the caves, that'll pretty much provide everything you need, though you'll might have to use log suits as armor, what a horror.

Summer is the easiest season to solve for, no matter which way you cut it. Being dropped into a world in the middle of winter or spring is much more dangerous.

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, Walrusst said:

So its attack animation is actually weird in that it actually is sped up by you kiting

Uhn... Isn't that just the usual Animation Cancel thingy? It's certainly an option, but I usually don't evaluate items while assuming people are abusing game mechanics that are there for a completely different reason...

Unless you're talking about something completely different and I misunderstood your point, in that case, my bad.

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

And if its not done that way its seen as an exploit or a bug.  

I mean... Exploits are exploits and bugs are bugs.

It's not so much as the way Klei devs view things, and more like the way things are or aren't.

Sometimes devs might leave those around if they aren't harmful (like walls around Dragonfly ponds being a clear exploit), but I'm never gonna fault the devs from patching those up.

[Walrusst]

2 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Alot of the times it feels like the klei devs only want you to play a certain way. And if its not done that way its seen as an exploit or a bug.  

Honestly the major issue is they struggle with the deliberate unconventional options they have given us. I believe the core reason why a lot of the characters with unconventional core mechanics cause so much controversy and conflict is klei has failed to balance them consistently.

Why? Well if the base kit cannot survive a compensation for walter/wanda/abagail/beefalo/spin cycle circuits kleis hands are tied. So long as the base kit flexibility is too low they don't really have the mechanical give or adaptability to allow us to solve problems that might arise from something actually being adequate to deal with the mechanics already in the game.

A less brittle base kit is the only real solution I see to this. As much as you can see there is a certain objection to the idea from some of the other players.

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

Uhn... Isn't that just the usual Animation Cancel thingy? It's certainly an option, but I usually don't evaluate items while assuming people are abusing game mechanics that are there for a completely different reason...

It kinda is but its not like the hat swapping exploit one. Its just that the frame windows on it are so bad that integrating movement and walking is at least as good as standing in place and attacking.

The hat swaps definitely an unintented feature style of exploit, where its too loved by hardcore players to fix, walking to compensate for a weapon that feels slow is more likely the primary intent of the feature that hat swappers are using. Even if the only real use for the probably intended flow of this is on an alarming clock that does so much damage that the game utterly breaks from it.

Edited Sunday at 10:33 PM by Walrusst

[AliceShiki]

10 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

It kinda is but its not like the hat swapping exploit one. Its just that the frame windows on it are so bad that integrating movement and walking is at least as good as standing in place and attacking.

The hat swaps definitely an unintented feature style of exploit, where its too loved by hardcore players to fix, walking to compensate for a weapon that feels slow is more likely the primary intent of the feature that hat swappers are using. Even if the only real use for the probably intended flow of this is on an alarming clock that does so much damage that the game utterly breaks from it.

Aaaaaaah, got it, got it! Thanks for clarifying!

[Cruvimaster]

17 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Sometimes devs might leave those around if they aren't harmful (like walls around Dragonfly ponds being a clear exploit), but I'm never gonna fault the devs from patching those up.

It is a fact that the devs tolerate various exploits they are clearly aware of. Shadow Pieces are a prime example.

After the Maxwell rework and the introduction of the T.I.N.G.L.E. Node, I see no reason for the devs to modify Dragonfly to prevent the use of walls anymore.

I would actually like the devs to put an end to the exploit by introducing a new type of wall made from scales—obtained via a blueprint after defeating Dragonfly for the first time. But that will never happen, of course.

[DVGMedia]

3 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Sometimes devs might leave those around if they aren't harmful (like walls around Dragonfly ponds being a clear exploit), but I'm never gonna fault the devs from patching those up.

Thats not even a exploit. 
Body blocking dragonfly so that she never spawns lavae in the first place was considered an exploit and was patched to make it so dfly didn't have collision while spawning lavae.  
Just the definition of exploit vs bug is very tight as some had mentioned already.  
its gotten so bad to the point that its memed that everything is working as intended.

 

[Walrusst]

40 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Thats not even a exploit. 
Body blocking dragonfly so that she never spawns lavae in the first place was considered an exploit and was patched to make it so dfly didn't have collision while spawning lavae.  
Just the definition of exploit vs bug is very tight as some had mentioned already.  
its gotten so bad to the point that its memed that everything is working as intended.

 

The biggest meme i've seen is people repeating there are no exploits in hamlet.
Its mildly rude given hamlets incredible, but the strange things that can happen are definitely a thing.

Edited yesterday at 01:02 AM by Walrusst

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

Thats not even a exploit. 
Body blocking dragonfly so that she never spawns lavae in the first place was considered an exploit and was patched to make it so dfly didn't have collision while spawning lavae.  
Just the definition of exploit vs bug is very tight as some had mentioned already.  
its gotten so bad to the point that its memed that everything is working as intended.

 

Dragonfly walls strat is absolutely an exploit. It uses the fact that lavae ignore ponds when pathing to prevent them from reaching the player without doing the much riskier, more time-consuming, and more expensive method of actually boxing them in (requires you to kill Dragonfly once or have someone distract her while you build for the central pond). It's the same as the exploit where you get Toadstool stuck on a pond to buy yourself more time to hit him, or using signs and walls or statues to do the moonstone event.

It doesn't stop being an exploit just because the devs are okay with it and you personally like it. Animation cancelling for extra DPS is also an exploit.

Edited yesterday at 02:10 AM by DegenerateFurry

[AliceShiki]

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

I see no reason for the devs to modify Dragonfly to prevent the use of walls anymore.

I agree, I see no reason to have this patched. I like Dfly as is. Fun to fight properly, easy to exploit and get the rewards from... I think all bosses should be like that, tbh.

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

Thats not even a exploit. 

I mean, you're clearly exploiting the Larvae AI that doesn't attack walls there to completely bypass Larvae phase... I don't see how that could be anything other than an exploit.

Pan Flute skipping Enraged Phase altogether OTOH, that's 100% intended game mechanic. The devs would have definitely made Enraged Dfly immune to sleep if they didn't want you to use Pan Flute to skip Enraged Phase.

The Larvae one though... I dunno how you can see it as not an exploit, honestly.

And again, not saying it's a problem. I think it's a good thing that Dfly is easy to cheese. I just think it's pretty reasonable to call the Walls as an exploit, because you're exploiting the Larvaes' dumb AI and stuff.

As for Exploit VS Bug... I think it's a pretty straightforward thingy...

Exploits are using the code as intended to create some sort of "abuse" that benefits the player.

Bugs are when the code stops functioning as intended.

Both can be left alone when they aren't harmful, but I'd say their definition is pretty different.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Dragonfly walls strat is absolutely an exploit. It uses the fact that lavae ignore ponds when pathing to prevent them from reaching the player without doing the much riskier, more time-consuming, and more expensive method of actually boxing them in (requires you to kill Dragonfly once or have someone distract her while you build for the central pond). It's the same as the exploit where you get Toadstool stuck on a pond to buy yourself more time to hit him, or using signs and walls or statues to do the moonstone event.

It doesn't stop being an exploit just because the devs are okay with it and you personally like it. 

Its literally the same as boxxing yourself in with walls.  Walls are ment to do that.  you can complain about the ponds but then it would just lead to people building it with a statue. 

for some reason people only ever want to have something if its intended.  And it kind of ruins things.  Is it really better if they make it so have to get a tingle node to make  transparent impathable wall that block creatures?

I cant get into conversation about what is and isn't exploitative because then there are crowds that would ruin the game because they think certain things shouldn't exist despite them never interacting with it.  

And then stuff that gets added doesn't even address the inital response in the first place. (bridges)

I am only hoping they are going to be doing some interesting new temperature mechanics with this change on the water can because it also affects players too.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

Its literally the same as boxxing yourself in with walls.  Walls are ment to do that.  you can complain about the ponds but then it would just lead to people building it with a statue. 

for some reason people only ever want to have something if its intended.  And it kind of ruins things.  Is it really better if they make it so have to get a tingle node to make  transparent impathable wall that block creatures?

I cant get into conversation about what is and isn't exploitative because then there are crowds that would ruin the game because they think certain things shouldn't exist despite them never interacting with it.  

And then stuff that gets added doesn't even address the inital response in the first place. (bridges)

I am only hoping they are going to be doing some interesting new temperature mechanics with this change on the water can because it also affects players too.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm actually in favor of the devs leaving exploits in the game if people tend to use them, I just don't think it's helpful to say things that are good exploits (pond walls, etc) aren't exploits because it fuels the "all exploits bad" crowd's argument. 

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, AliceShiki said:

The Larvae one though... I dunno how you can see it as not an exploit, honestly.

well you got to look at history. Lavae used to be infinite. The only way of dealing with them was to kill them.  ice staffs could work because they would 3 shot them. They would litterally chase after you until dragonfly despawned and at that point they would just sit there untill they were unloaded. 

I personally think its nice to have multiple ways to fight a boss. Dragonfly has alot of small things that you can do to avoid her mechanic beyond just sleep. 

But you shouldn't limit people just because 1 seems cheesy.

7 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Exploits are using the code as intended to create some sort of "abuse" that benefits the player.

isn't that funny to think though cause shouldn't that be the point of a survival game?

 

[DinsdaleP]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Dragonfly walls strat is absolutely an exploit. It uses the fact that lavae ignore ponds

...and not only is it an exploit, it somehow became the accepted strategy while fighting Dragonfly, despite being so painfully boring. Going into that fight with ice staffs is not only fun, but basically free, since you get back all the blue gems which you aren't using for much anyway. The wall nonsense? It's just dull.

[Walrusst]

I kinda want to figure out a good water balloon farm design so I can try doing the fight with the item that sort exists to extinguish lavae and the enraged state. You know, DFly has the old wetness mechanic specifically so we can use that item on her.

There's just no flycatcher and people.... Aren't going to stand next to the swamp ponds for three weeks per dragonfly fight.

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

Lavae used to be infinite.

Oh, I didn't know that... Cool to know!

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

I personally think its nice to have multiple ways to fight a boss.

I agree! Part of why I love Dfly!

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

But you shouldn't limit people just because 1 seems cheesy.

We are in agreement there, hence why I said that Dfly being fun to fight normally and easy to cheese is great.

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

isn't that funny to think though cause shouldn't that be the point of a survival game?

Yep, I think there are 0 issues with exploits existing in Survival Games for as long as they aren't harmful.

And by harmful I mean like... Stuff people could accidentally stumble upon that would negatively affect their experience, like getting stuck in place, dying, losing all their items or whatever.

Otherwise, no issues with exploits existing. I'll never blame devs for fixing them, but I see no harm in their existence.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, DinsdaleP said:

...and not only is it an exploit, it somehow became the accepted strategy while fighting Dragonfly, despite being so painfully boring. Going into that fight with ice staffs is not only fun, but basically free, since you get back all the blue gems which you aren't using for much anyway. The wall nonsense? It's just dull.

Either you're talking about the max level ice staff upgrade or you've never done the fight with a normal ice staff, because you're going to use up far more than just two of them. The lavae each take many hits to freeze and Dragonfly spawns a ton of them. 

The "wall nonsense" is a necessary evil because of the fight's flawed A New Reign-era design philosophy and a lack of tools available for players before the endgame that actually deal with it well, since ice staves are sorely lacking before their upgrade.

1 hour ago, Walrusst said:

I kinda want to figure out a good water balloon farm design so I can try doing the fight with the item that sort exists to extinguish lavae and the enraged state. You know, DFly has the old wetness mechanic specifically so we can use that item on her.

There's just no flycatcher and people.... Aren't going to stand next to the swamp ponds for three weeks per dragonfly fight.

The best water balloon farm is to literally just put Chester by some mosquito ponds. His HP regen is too high for mosquitos to actually kill him and they'll blow themselves up biting him. I think you do need the ponds on-screen for that to work, though.

Also, if you're using volt goat jelly, you'll only need about 10 water balloons per Dragonfly fight. 

Edited yesterday at 04:50 AM by DegenerateFurry

[lowercasename]

9 hours ago, Walrusst said:

I'd say this is more a symptom of the ham bats relative isolation in the alchemy engine pool as the one major weapon that is abundant and effective.

I'd love if a counter meta weapon that was weaker, tailored to fighting enemies in the 200 hp range, and safer to use was made out of one of the other blatantly useless alchemy engine weapons for players learning the game.

Well some characters do have ways to farm tentacle spikes from big tentacles safely for very little cost (WX's axe spin, Wendy's Abigail, Wormwood Bramble Specialist) which does fill that role.
But yeah, that's more of a character specific thing and other characters without it are better off with Ham Bat.

[BB Marioni]

For anyone not familiar: Pearl also now has a tea that reduces temp. 1-2 teas lasted me the entire summer.