My Wish for Future Winona updates

[Master_NiX]

Hi, can you believe it's been nearly 2 years since Winona skill tree has been released?

Since then we got a lot of new toys to play, Wendy and Walter got their own portable storage for their unique items.
Walter learned to customize his slingshot. Wortox learned to teleport by clicking on the map. And now WX is able to invent transportation system that Winona apparently is unable to comprehend (which is strange, since she kinda fixed WX).

Most people agree one few things when talking about Winona:

1. Having multiple Teletransport Stations is inconvenient unless you abuse certain gimmicks (range and energy related).
2. Lack of Toolbox(currently fixed by mod), as mentioned Walter and Wendy have their own special container for their own unique items.
3. Rapid-Fire skill tree being lackluster disaster.

Now, here's one take that not many may agree with, but due to the new skill tree of WX, I came to the conclusion that Winona, WX and WILSON should be able to use each others features. Why Wilson? Because he and others worked with the mastermind himself, Wagstaff.

While this topic is about Winona, I wanted to get it out of the way, that this would give Wilson more purpose. He can't craft new technology, but he can understand how certain things work, this would limit his gameplay but give him second wind when playing with these two.

Now, back to Winona and WX.
As I mentioned in another topic, WX (and Wortox to be honest) is being able to use their own gimmick with open map. I believe this should be available to Winona as well. She already does have similar thing, but only when interacting with Wormholes, why not extend it to Teletransport Station? Open map to LINK portasol to specific Teletransport Station to teleport back, opening map and clicking different teletransport station each time would relink said portasol, but that way you can still instantly teleport back, but without any RNG, Kinda like Wanda's Backtrek watch works.
Speaking of Backtrek watch. I believe Portasol should bring surrounding players as well. They can't use it, but should be teleported similar to Riftwatch or Telelocator Staff.

Toolbox suggestion is currently temporarily fixed by either mod or by certain amount of Bundling Wraps, just give her her own container with 4-6 slots, should be enough.

Now... Rapid-fire, Due to the alignment talents, this skill tree is obsolete. There no reason to pick it up. Honestly, I was looking at Walter's skill tree and it gave me idea. What if you could customize Catapults and generators? What if we could turn on the afterburner increasing the energy consumption by turning catapult rate of fire closer to Precise Targeting? This is just an idea.

But TL;DR;
Winona, WX and Wilson, should be able to use each other's technology. (Again, Wilson cus of Wagstaff). Or Winona should be able to invent her own version of WX stuff (Her description even says "She invents stuff").
Winona should receive Toolbox, be able to link Portasol via map and other players should be teleported near Portasol.
Low Priority, Future reworks (I take it adjustments will happen at some point), Rapid-Fire Tree should go and be replaced with tech customizations.

EDIT: Since I don't want Winona to become a "Switch Character" for WX I meant it more like:
 

Spoiler

Winona
-Can send back WX's transportation drones or invent her own version of it
-Everyone should be able to fuel with Nightmare Fuel(and etc) if Winona is present with said talent on the server.
WX:
-Possibly able to use Portasol, but can't use Handy Remote
-Can redeploy Winbots
Wilson:
-Can send back WX's Transportation drones
-Can use Portasol
-Can redeploy Winbots
-CANT CRAFT WX's or Winona's technology

 

Edited March 27 by Master_NiX

[flamboyant wolf]

Maybe it's too much to ask, but another machine to craft, unrelated to Wagstaff, would be cool as well! I like Winona's tree a lot, but it is a bit of a shame that the only new machinery comes from Wagstaff's 2 skills(discounting the remote, ig?).

Telebrella being able to teleport nearby players would be nice. A bit 50/50 on the destination selection, cause I do kinda like the planning and precision it takes to set up an efficient network as Winona, fits the gameplay of an engineer/builder, and balances out it being pretty cheap to actually use(or completely free if you have crown shards to spare, but it does take time to get those tbf).

[Master_NiX]

3 minutes ago, flamboyant wolf said:

but another machine to craft, unrelated to Wagstaff, would be cool as well!

Which is why I hoped she would be able to scan WX's new technology and come up with her own.
She does have quotes for WX's Circuit Extractor ("They could just ask for my help!") which suggest that she could extract Circuits more efficiently with less harm to circuits.
While her quote for Portable Storage Unit makes me think that she would invent her own version of it ("Wish I had me a flyin' toolkit").

[flamboyant wolf]

24 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

Which is why I hoped she would be able to scan WX's new technology and come up with her own.
She does have quotes for WX's Circuit Extractor ("They could just ask for my help!") which suggest that she could extract Circuits more efficiently with less harm to circuits.
While her quote for Portable Storage Unit makes me think that she would invent her own version of it ("Wish I had me a flyin' toolkit").

more synergy between the two would certainly be interesting.

[Evelo]

43 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

Rapid-Fire skill tree being lackluster disaster.

it is? My biggest issue with Winona's skill tree is the portable buildings being locked behind a skill point, the first row being requiring 3 points while not really being of interest. I would like more passive upgrades. I really like the extra battery life and the extra firing speed. The extra blast radius is cool. Extra range would be nice on the catapults and/or the generators. But I am very partial to passives.

[Kvetevk]

48 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

I came to the conclusion that Winona, WX and WILSON should be able to use each others features.

Yes

Also I would love for characters to have more synergy, especially with skill trees.

[Master_NiX]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

it is? My biggest issue with Winona's skill tree is the portable buildings being locked behind a skill point, the first row being requiring 3 points while not really being of interest. I would like more passive upgrades. I really like the extra battery life and the extra firing speed. The extra blast radius is cool. Extra range would be nice on the catapults and/or the generators. But I am very partial to passives.

You get more speed from clicking 1 button via Barrage talent, but Rapid-Fire (nor barrage) do not help you with Precise Targeting, Shadow and Enlightened Strikes.
The only Value you get if you play melee with Winona while having turrent, but even then, your DPS is gonna be doubled with Precise Targeting.

@Jakeyosaurusexplained it better in his video about Winona.

Edited March 27 by Master_NiX

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, Master_NiX said:

As I mentioned in another topic, WX (and Wortox to be honest) is being able to use their own gimmick with open map. I believe this should be available to Winona as well. She already does have similar thing, but only when interacting with Wormholes, why not extend it to Teletransport Station? Open map to LINK portasol to specific Teletransport Station to teleport back, opening map and clicking different teletransport station each time would relink said portasol, but that way you can still instantly teleport back, but without any RNG, Kinda like Wanda's Backtrek watch works.

I oppose this.

A Teletransport Statio network based on distance, which requires you to think creatively and build it yourself, is more interesting than simply arriving directly. That was one of major enjoyment for playing as Winona in the long run game, completely in line with Winona's character and make Charlie/Wagstaff branch have distinct characteristics., removing this element only make her bored and losing uniqueness.

And also you know, Winona is basically the only god in the later game now. She doesn't need too much buffs.

Edited March 27 by Cassielu

[Wikte]

The idea of interlocking them like this is cool, but honestly, Wx and Winona are already overpowered and don’t need it. However, Wilson should be able to interact with other technologies—that would be a nice boost for him.

 

 

 

[Master_NiX]

4 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

I oppose this.

A Teletransport Statio network based on distance, which requires you to think creatively and build it yourself, is more interesting than simply arriving directly. That was one of major enjoyment for playing as Winona in the long run game, and removing this element only make her bored and losing uniqueness.

Interesting, in other topics most people complained about it. Meanwhile here I see a few defending it.
But, honestly, Winona already has a feature that allows her to choose destination, which is her shadow tree in relation to wormholes.

Edited March 27 by Master_NiX

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

Lack of Toolbox(currently fixed by mod), as mentioned Walter and Wendy have their own special container for their own unique items.

Why does every character need a toolbox?

[Master_NiX]

2 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Why does every character need a toolbox?

Mostly because unlike WX's Portable storages, catapults can't stack.

[RowdyRooster]

While thinking through the WX Beta, and I know Winona is not the current focus, I also think the map based teleportation mechanic should be applied to Winona. In interest of consistent interaction design, which would be good QoL and intuitive playing across characters, I am hoping that porting this functionality/code to Winona would be minimal, non-disruptive, and related during a time the team is focused on WX.

For future focus on Winona, I do think having more synergy or interactions between Winona and WX would be positive. Right now WX benefits from Winona's generators and ability to collect scrap so it would be more balanced if Winona could also benefit. I personally never play Winona, and feels like she's a lesser picked character (along with WX), and this could help give more incentive for players to pick these characters.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Master_NiX said:

Mostly because unlike WX's Portable storages, catapults can't stack.

Neither can pickaxes. 

It’s a downside which doesnt let her easily be a portable catapult setup. Use bundles anyway.

Inventory isnt just an inconvenience it’s also a way to balance things.

[Sorceress2024]

 

6 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

1. Having multiple Teletransport Stations is inconvenient unless you abuse certain gimmicks (range and energy related).
2. Lack of Toolbox(currently fixed by mod), as mentioned Walter and Wendy have their own special container for their own unique items.
3. Rapid-Fire skill tree being lackluster disaster.

I woudlnt consider it abuse to use an item as intended, you could argue that for the energy but even then a teleport from far enough causing a single enlightned shard depower for a bit feels like an intended late game methode
When a character has long distance teleportation without cooldown/the ability to send items anywhere, it doesnt really feel like you need storage containers for certain items in your inventory. In winonas case teleporting causes items on the ground near you to teleport as well, so when using that skill over shadow seeker 2 you do have a easy way to transport a lot of catipults already.
Winona is also a character who has easy access to getting bundles, beyond just killing bq you can also just scan the bunldes that klaus drops.

Its also nice that so far, each characters long distance teleportation is a bit different then eachother. Wortox is anywhere, winona is distance based, wanda needs an item per location that has a cooldown but can go between caves and surface. And wx-78, where you're limited in number and moving after "teleporting" moves your teleport spot

I do think it would be nice for winona to have an easier way to plan out her teleportation network, there are some mods that help with precise distances but having that in vanilla for console players would be lovely.

The only long distance teleport id like to see some changes to is wanda's. just in terms of making it easier to access so hoping it will happen in her skilltree.

But ya Rapid-fire does suck, having that changed to something else, and if it isnt changed maybe it could be moved to be bottom shelf perks, but even then im not sure if i would take them

[Dingle]

8 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I oppose this.

A Teletransport Statio network based on distance, which requires you to think creatively and build it yourself, is more interesting than simply arriving directly. That was one of major enjoyment for playing as Winona in the long run game, completely in line with Winona's character and make Charlie/Wagstaff branch have distinct characteristics., removing this element only make her bored and losing uniqueness.

And also you know, Winona is basically the only god in the later game now. She doesn't need too much buffs.

Did you use the mod?

[Evelo]

9 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

You get more speed from clicking 1 button via Barrage talent, but Rapid-Fire (nor barrage) do not help you with Precise Targeting, Shadow and Enlightened Strikes.
The only Value you get if you play melee with Winona while having turrent, but even then, your DPS is gonna be doubled with Precise Targeting.

Fair I suppose, but I'm a disabled gamer so I only use the keyboard to play. Swapping to the mouse is relegated only for building stuff, can't be doing that in combat. Not saying it isn't a valid comment, it's a balance issue, clearly.

[Cuernito.]

I like your enthusiasm but i think you dont understand Winona at all. First you start comparing Winona with wendy and walter, then you compare her with wortox and what do they have to do with her?

10 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

Most people agree one few things when talking about Winona:

I have never seen people agree with those things outside of the beta winona time, right now those thing are not as you describe them.

1.-No, its not inconvenient, at first yeah you only need 2 teleport stations but after you make a good gems farm(Winona is realy good at this) you can make a good net of teleports using the energy of gems.

2.-Idk why some people are obssesed with toolbox lmao, yeah ik she do have one in some animations but she doesnt need one cause she has her teleports, its not a fair comparison winona's catapults and gens with wendy's flask and walter pebbles, those characters have so much differnt items while winona its the same item, catapults. its just they dont stack but she does have the tp to compensate and to be honest she can just make a set up of catapults per location and dont move them around all the map, moving cataults instead of crafting new ones per boss area looks more like a speed run than a normal gameplay if you ask me.

3.-This is the point that makes me think you dont main the girl, while its true rapid fire is the worst skills in the middle tree they still have their use, if we check the vid of your content creator jake he actually struggle with some bosses, with others he didnt use catapults, this is cause he was speed running not playing normally, i have to say that even if i like explosive volley more in my first play with skill tree Nona i picked rapid fire for a simple reason, there are bosses that can be killed a lot easier with rapid fire and explosive volley can cause some boss fights to be really inconveninet, one example is klaus or even the shadow pieces, with explosive volley you can esily kill the deers or a shadow piece you dont inteded to kill first like it happens to jake in his video, but if you use rapid fire the fight is gonna be a breeze. 

Rapid fire is actually an underrated skill, this comes mainly from people that use the facetank method to kill bosses, with Nona there are 3 ways to deal with bosses using catapults,

1 Precise targeting-facetank: This is what i call the rich strategy, you need at least 9 catapults and 1 gen, you are gonna need strong tanky armor and some healing food as well as precise targeting skill. The strategy is simple just try to do as much damage as possible to the boss using only cataoults as main dps, you can`t attack yourself, the more catapults the better.

2 Barrage-passive/supportive catapults: I call this the poor strategy cause you need few resources, with this you can use the catapults to make some damage to the bosses but you still need to move and do damage yourself, using barrage from time to time to buff the catapults, this strat can be used against any boss and unlike the tanky one you arent gonna have problems with some bosses especially if you use rapid fire instead of explosive volley.

And as a Nona main i have to say that if you learn to use both strats and combine them during combat you are gonna have better results.

3 Nuclear explosion farm: This is the last way to kill bosses using catapults but this is really late game and i think it explains itself.

Now while i dont agree with most your opinions especially the rapid fire stuff i have to say that i like the idea of Nona, Wilson and Wx-78 having a good sinergy but my ideas would be:

Wilson: He should deploy winbot and he should fast arm individuals catapults too like Winona. He should be able to use zap drone and storage drone too.

Nona: Right now she can get easy nitre with wilson transmutation skills and she can provide energy to robot and his zap drone.

Wx-78: He shoul be able ro recharge generators if he is using electric circuit and he is about to make the electric AoE attack and i think he should be able to use his Rangebooster circuit to mod generators and gemerators so any catapults using that gen get a boost in range, this could be cool cause you know catapults have a max distance and buffing this just a little would be a good little interaction between robot and Nona. Right now the robot only takes but dont offer anything to his teammate Nona

7 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

Mostly because unlike WX's Portable storages, catapults can't stack.

She has a great teleport that can teleport items with her so i dont see any incoveninent with her not having a way to storage catapults, maybe if you try to play her normally instead to speed run you are gonna find the true nature of Nona. She is a set up character, she takes time and if you dont speed run with her you can just make one catapult's set per boss location so you dont need to move them around as much.

Plus you do have to remember that in this beta Nona is being indirect buffed so we should wait to see her new potential!

Edited March 27 by NekoSoulx

[Master_NiX]

1 hour ago, NekoSoulx said:

irst you start comparing Winona with wendy and walter, then you compare her with wortox and what do they have to do with her?

I wasn't comparing it with them directly, I was talking about the fact that Klei implemented a lot of "toys" to play with. The only comparison I had was with Walter's customization, but that was just an idea.

As for toolbox, this idea is mostly because the unique character inventories started appearing during the next rework. And I did specify the small container, not large, I am not a fan of backpack sized inventories. I do not main her, yes. But that doesn't mean that I didn't do runs with her, however I do agree that I didn't consider using teleportation as means for transportation of catapults (used bundling wraps in my inventory to carry over, haha). I do use Precise Targetting in early game tho, I'd rather have more utility over small percentage of attack speed. Having Nightmare fueled generators in early game is very useful to me as well as wine bridges.

Perhaps you're right, that I need to play more with her, but I still believe she could benefit from new features that has been added since her rework.

At very least we agree on the fact that these three could benefit from synergy.

[Cuernito.]

11 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

I still believe she could benefit from new features that has been added since her rework.

Maybe i was too harsh my friend but i do main her and i think she doesnt need more atm and yeah i like funny interaction between characters so i hope klei can make more during this beta. And about the indirect buff to Nona i invite you if you are playing the beta, to play with her using the Morning star as an  early main weapon and tell me how you feel when using it(you can recharge the weapon using generators). I wanna hear more opinions about this and if this can or can't change Winona early game meta.

[flamboyant wolf]

5 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

Maybe i was too harsh my friend but i do main her and i think she doesnt need more atm and yeah i like funny interaction between characters so i hope klei can make more during this beta. And about the indirect buff to Nona i invite you if you are playing the beta, to play with her using the Morning star as an  early main weapon and tell me how you feel when using it(you can recharge the weapon using generators). I wanna hear more opinions about this and if this can or can't change Winona early game meta.

I've been playing with it past few days and it's certainly nice. With energy efficiency maxed out & nightmare fuel skill you can recharge it very easily, and since you can put down a generator anywhere, you can recharge it anytime, so I've been using morning star as my primary hand light source and weapon. 

its damage is not too crazy outside of spring, but stun is nice, and no durability(technically) makes it a decent day to day weapon, even if it doesn't break 50 dmg mark on dry enemies. 

[Master_NiX]

21 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

play with her using the Morning star

I too use Morning Star as main weapon for her, but more as terms for CC. I would strike once or twice and queue 3 shots.

[Cuernito.]

2 hours ago, flamboyant wolf said:

I've been playing with it past few days and it's certainly nice. With energy efficiency maxed out & nightmare fuel skill you can recharge it very easily, and since you can put down a generator anywhere, you can recharge it anytime, so I've been using morning star as my primary hand light source and weapon. 

its damage is not too crazy outside of spring, but stun is nice, and no durability(technically) makes it a decent day to day weapon, even if it doesn't break 50 dmg mark on dry enemies. 

 

2 hours ago, Master_NiX said:

I too use Morning Star as main weapon for her, but more as terms for CC. I would strike once or twice and queue 3 shots.

Nice, maybe it does have the great potential i saw in it.

[Master_NiX]

We need more'ning star skins