Is there an explanation for this [lore]

[RexySeven]

How and why did shadows tortured Maxwell? Why doesn't they do that to Charlie too?
I might be missing the lore bit but I don't understand why shadows actively made Maxwell's life miserable but for Charlie they just allow her to do whatever. 

Also I'm slightly missing more uncanny horror element of the shadow side: music box in the complete silence kind of vibe. How Shadow Throne room is just this giant empty place devoid of life and any reason, otherworldy place.
I hope last update in current arc will remember it's roots.

[cropo]

My headcanon is that Charlie is simply a better host than Maxwell and the shadows don't need to do much to her in order to get her obedience. When Charlie frees Wilson you can see a struggle for control happening, before what seems to be Charlie making peace with the shadows going half sweet and half sour. Something with Charlie clicked better than it did with Maxwell.

Also, Maxwell was bribed and actually benefited greatly from the shadows before they took their price from him. He became a masterful magician in life, and for a time being a god of an empty continent that you can do whatever you wish in was probably pretty amazing for the first...hundred or so years however long he's been on it. Maxwell also still retains much of what he got from the shadows, able to manipulate them very effectively to do his bidding.

Another headcanon I have is that the shadows are stealing the ideas of other people; they can't create on their own and need someone else to do it which they then steal for themselves.

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, RexySeven said:

How and why did shadows tortured Maxwell? Why doesn't they do that to Charlie too?
I might be missing the lore bit but I don't understand why shadows actively made Maxwell's life miserable but for Charlie they just allow her to do whatever. 

Also I'm slightly missing more uncanny horror element of the shadow side: music box in the complete silence kind of vibe. How Shadow Throne room is just this giant empty place devoid of life and any reason, otherworldy place.
I hope last update in current arc will remember it's roots.

In reality it's very simple. Charlie has been very very VERYYY infected with the shadows (probably she has inside a shard of them! A shard of tenebrau...) and thus they know and feel Charlie is on their side and being controlled as a puppet. We saw it even in these last years in her actions and dialogues. While Maxwell has been also infected with tons of nightmare fuel, colleting tons of tumors in his way I imagine lol, and has been in direct contact multiple of times with the shadows, he's free minded. Therefore he can betray and do his things, and he did, multiple times, and thus torturing him. It's very self-explanatory.

Also agree on the second paragraph.

Edited July 1, 2025 by Milordo

[RexySeven]

6 minutes ago, Milordo said:

n reality it's very simple. Charlie has been very very VERYYY infected with the shadows (probably she has inside a shard of them! A shard of tenebrau...) and thus they know and feel Charlie is on their side and being controlled as a puppet. We saw it even in these last years in her actions and dialogues. While Maxwell has been also infected with tons of nightmare fuel, colleting tons of tumors in his way I imagine lol, and has been in direct contact multiple of times with the shadows, he's free minded. Therefore he can betray and do his things, and he did, multiple times, and thus torturing him. It's very self-explanatory.

But how did Maxwell betray/disobey them, isn't Wilson the one that freed him? It's doesn't seem like Maxwell intentionally let Wilson reach him as he was throwing all the traps he could possibly do at the time. Maybe he did? I don't know why he got progressively deranged the more levels you complete in adventure mode.

[Milordo]

14 minutes ago, RexySeven said:

But how did Maxwell betray/disobey them, isn't Wilson the one that freed him? It's doesn't seem like Maxwell intentionally let Wilson reach him as he was throwing all the traps he could possibly do at the time. Maybe he did? I don't know why he got progressively deranged the more levels you complete in adventure mode.

Wilson freed him, because the all thing of the shadows was to use another puppet (Wilson) to convince him in opening the portals and destroy everything in the Constant and Earth, since that's always their goal. In fact he got deranged Maxwell during adventure mode because he wanted to stop and warn Wilson about it. He never intentionally let Wilson reach him. It could be discussed that maybbeee a part of him wanted this, because he was tired of being tortured and simply dump all the responsibility to other people.

You need to understand that Maxwell had powers, but not free of charge nor will. He had limitations imposed by Them.

[mkemal23]

3 hours ago, Milordo said:

Wilson freed him, because the all thing of the shadows was to use another puppet (Wilson) to convince him in opening the portals and destroy everything in the Constant and Earth, since that's always their goal. In fact he got deranged Maxwell during adventure mode because he wanted to stop and warn Wilson about it. He never intentionally let Wilson reach him. It could be discussed that maybbeee a part of him wanted this, because he was tired of being tortured and simply dump all the responsibility to other people.

You need to understand that Maxwell had powers, but not free of charge nor will. He had limitations imposed by Them.

This is not true. Maxwell did not warn anybody. 

While we don't know how or when Maxwell started using Nightmare Throne's powers, we know that he did not want anybody to overthrow him. (This most likely includes shadows.)

In fact, entire reason why advanture mode exists is because Maxwell realised that Charlie(and most likely them) was after the throne, So he created a really complicated chain of worlds to keep himself safe. 

This is also why at the start of 'Two worlds' Maxwell want's a truce with Wilson saying ''I'll give you anything you want; food, gold, pigs..''. It's not because he warns Wilson about whats coming but because he slowly realises that Wilson might actually beat the avdenture mode and sit on the nightmare throne. These are all explained in the stage plays.

 

Not only that but stage plays also explain a lot of details like why did Maxwell turn into a dust pile or Why Shadow monster charlie always followed the player:

Spoiler

Edited July 1, 2025 by mkemal23

[RexySeven]

21 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

While we don't know how or when Maxwell started using Nightmare Throne's powers, we know that he did not want anybody to overthrow him. (This most likely includes shadows.)

 

I don't understand, if he didn't want to be overthrown, why did he allows to be actively tortured?

[mkemal23]

17 minutes ago, RexySeven said:

I don't understand, if he didn't want to be overthrown, why did he allows to be actively tortured?

Uh, I think I'm missing something. What do you mean by torture? The radio thing?

[RexySeven]

5 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

Uh, I think I'm missing something. What do you mean by torture? The radio thing?

Forced radio + he looks quite ... unwell to say the least.

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, RexySeven said:

How and why did shadows tortured Maxwell? Why doesn't they do that to Charlie too?

She was clearly tortured by insanity until she merged with her other half. She also hasn't been on the throne as long and doesn't have possession of the Codex.

Maxwell was probably tortured for some selfish betrayal or not delivering results.

Edited July 1, 2025 by Bumber64

[mkemal23]

7 minutes ago, RexySeven said:

Forced radio + he looks quite ... unwell to say the least.

The radio? I don't know.

But the reason why he looked terrible at the end of advanture mode(Checkmate) is not mainly because of torture but because of waiting. (Forgive me if I'm missing something with the torture part) 

Maxwell has been there for ethernity. So much so that only thing kept his body intact was the Nightmare throne. Which is probably why the second he got freed he also got thanos snapped.

[Chewabacca]

I don’t really think the shadows need a reason to hurt people. They’re demons from beyond even the world of the Constant, this is just what they do. There’s no reason for them to attack people in general and yet they do so anyway, because their nature is to prey on the vulnerable for sport. Charlie gets  special treatment because she’s one of them, or fused with one of them, anyways.

In the case of Maxwell, the only thing we see that happens to him on the Throne that doesn’t also happen to Wilson is just that Maxwell’s body gets much older and shabbier. Which only happens because Maxwell spent more time on it. 

 

[RexySeven]

1 hour ago, mkemal23 said:

The radio? I don't know.

But the reason why he looked terrible at the end of advanture mode(Checkmate) is not mainly because of torture but because of waiting. (Forgive me if I'm missing something with the torture part) 

Maxwell has been there for ethernity. So much so that only thing kept his body intact was the Nightmare throne. Which is probably why the second he got freed he also got thanos snapped.

I thought I remember someone explicitly stating that shadows actively torture mentaly and physically whoever is at the wheel. Might be wrong with that completely. 

[crushcircuit]

i believe its because maxwell actively tried to resist initially, but Charlie was a willing host (as she was already kind of infused with shadows when she initially hit the constant) so they dont need to "convince" her

from his compendium entry:

Quote

There he would remain for what seemed like an eternity, tethered to the Nightmare Throne and compelled to ensnare more victims in the Constant's trap.

i believe the "compelling" in question is the torture

2 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

(Forgive me if I'm missing something with the torture part) 

he's being physically restrained. he's "tethered" to the chair because they basically glued him on there. being stuck in the same position for an eternity is not good for the human body, as well as being forced to listen to the same exact song for equally as long. hes also shown mental distress with both sitting down and listening to music afterwards

Spoiler

		MAXWELL_ADVENTURETHRONE.LEVEL_6.PHONOGRAPHOFF.ONE = "Thank you. I have been listening to that song for an eternity." --when you turn the gramophone off
		MAXWELLTHRONE = "It's less painful than it looks. Barely."

        WOOD_CHAIR =
        {
            GENERIC = "I'm appalled by the idea of sitting for some reason.",
            OCCUPIED = "Good. You sit. Forever.",
            BURNT = "Better that way.",
        }

		TRINKET_45 = "At least it's not ragtime." -- Odd Radio ONI trinket
        PHONOGRAPH = "That accursed thing!"
        RECORD = "Destroy it!"
        RECORD_CREEPYFOREST = "Forgive me if I've lost my taste for music." --these two lines are repeated for other records
        RECORD_DANGER = "Silence would be preferable." --these two lines are repeated for other records

RECORD = "T'would be a kindness to keep it from reaching the ears of my ally." --wigfrid

also, one of his lines seems to imply that he tried to kill himself to leave at a point, which would certainly mean that it was torturous for him

MAXWELL_ADVENTURETHRONE.LEVEL_6.HIT.ONE = "The throne won't allow that. I've tried." --when attacking him on the throne

 

Edited July 1, 2025 by crushcircuit
added another adventure mode line

[Milordo]

3 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

This is not true. Maxwell did not warn anybody. 

While we don't know how or when Maxwell started using Nightmare Throne's powers, we know that he did not want anybody to overthrow him. (This most likely includes shadows.)

In fact, entire reason why advanture mode exists is because Maxwell realised that Charlie(and most likely them) was after the throne, So he created a really complicated chain of worlds to keep himself safe. 

This is also why at the start of 'Two worlds' Maxwell want's a truce with Wilson saying ''I'll give you anything you want; food, gold, pigs..''. It's not because he warns Wilson about whats coming but because he slowly realises that Wilson might actually beat the avdenture mode and sit on the nightmare throne. These are all explained in the stage plays.

 

Not only that but stage plays also explain a lot of details like why did Maxwell turn into a dust pile or Why Shadow monster charlie always followed the player:

Yes, sorry my bad. I knew all this but explained it bad. Thanks for the correction 👍 

[viblym]

Innnn my interpretation of things I think that Maxwell, who had the chance to acquaint himself with the shadows slowly over time with the Codex in the real world? (human world? Earth? I'll go with on Earth) Where the shadows had limited power over him. Despite how much Maxwell had indulged himself in the shadows, even then he still resisted, which is why the shadows were torturing him in his apartment's creepy room and such. The final act went wrong because he lost control of the shadows and they had likely gotten fed up with him, or decided that the time was right.

While "The Doll" stageplay is very biased and unreliable as a source, I do think that some of what the Shadows told to Charlie was true, in that Maxwell accepted power from them but refused his end of the bargain (releasing them / making them whole). Charlie had very scarce interactions with the shadows prior to entering the Constant, and unlike Maxwell was not privy to their methods of manipulation, making her a very vulnerable target to them, especially when Maxwell kept so many things hidden from her. She had no insight, no familiarity with the shadows at all, so when she ended up being their contingency plan if Maxwell fell through as King: she ended up being perfect. Charlie doesn't need to be kept in place by the shadows because she's been made to believe that there is some sympathetic aspect between them, that both of them are incomplete and can be made whole. Charlie isn't going to resist or leave because this is what she thinks she wants. 

Edited July 1, 2025 by viblym

[Uedo]

Isn't it quite clear in the stage play? Max used it to create a world for himself and utilised power without giving back. Charlie is going to help 'fix' the shadow entity, probs why.

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, RexySeven said:

How and why did shadows tortured Maxwell? Why doesn't they do that to Charlie too?
I might be missing the lore bit but I don't understand why shadows actively made Maxwell's life miserable but for Charlie they just allow her to do whatever. 

Also I'm slightly missing more uncanny horror element of the shadow side: music box in the complete silence kind of vibe. How Shadow Throne room is just this giant empty place devoid of life and any reason, otherworldy place.
I hope last update in current arc will remember it's roots.

I think it's because they couldn't exert much control over Maxwell while Charlie they do.

[cropo]

7 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

The radio? I don't know

IF we go with my interpretation that the shadows are stealing ideas and culture, it's actually possible in my opinion that they don't realize they are torturing Maxwell with it. They only know "music is a cultural phenomenon of humans and therefore they must enjoy and like it" without fully understanding the entire context behind it. They play the song endlessly thinking it will ease and sooth the host; the song itself is quite disarming and pleasant on first impressions. There is nothing evil or malicious in it, just a good merry tune to dance to and have fun with.

I just see a desire for the culture of sentient beings as their endgoal in every decision Klei makes. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the introduction of the stage play setpiece is yet another representation of something humans have made and is pretty exclusively a human invention. They only crudely understand culture and try to imitate it the best they can, whether out of malice or genuine desire is unclear. They've taken human art and performance and now have a way to manifest themselves into the world through the words of the actors using the unique method of conveying messages and themes to an audience and can now do so in a tangible and comprehensible manner,

[Milordo]

7 hours ago, viblym said:

Innnn my interpretation of things I think that Maxwell, who had the chance to acquaint himself with the shadows slowly over time with the Codex in the real world? (human world? Earth? I'll go with on Earth) Where the shadows had limited power over him. Despite how much Maxwell had indulged himself in the shadows, even then he still resisted, which is why the shadows were torturing him in his apartment's creepy room and such. The final act went wrong because he lost control of the shadows and they had likely gotten fed up with him, or decided that the time was right.

While "The Doll" stageplay is very biased and unreliable as a source, I do think that some of what the Shadows told to Charlie was true, in that Maxwell accepted power from them but refused his end of the bargain (releasing them / making them whole). Charlie had very scarce interactions with the shadows prior to entering the Constant, and unlike Maxwell was not privy to their methods of manipulation, making her a very vulnerable target to them, especially when Maxwell kept so many things hidden from her. She had no insight, no familiarity with the shadows at all, so when she ended up being their contingency plan if Maxwell fell through as King: she ended up being perfect. Charlie doesn't need to be kept in place by the shadows because she's been made to believe that there is some sympathetic aspect between them, that both of them are incomplete and can be made whole. Charlie isn't going to resist or leave because this is what she thinks she wants. 

"Iiiiissaaaacc..... isaac.....make us wholllleee...."

[RexySeven]

16 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

This is not true. Maxwell did not warn anybody. 

While we don't know how or when Maxwell started using Nightmare Throne's powers, we know that he did not want anybody to overthrow him. (This most likely includes shadows.)

In fact, entire reason why advanture mode exists is because Maxwell realised that Charlie(and most likely them) was after the throne, So he created a really complicated chain of worlds to keep himself safe. 

This is also why at the start of 'Two worlds' Maxwell want's a truce with Wilson saying ''I'll give you anything you want; food, gold, pigs..''. It's not because he warns Wilson about whats coming but because he slowly realises that Wilson might actually beat the avdenture mode and sit on the nightmare throne. These are all explained in the stage plays.

 

Not only that but stage plays also explain a lot of details like why did Maxwell turn into a dust pile or Why Shadow monster charlie always followed the player:

  Reveal hidden contents

But we have to keep in mind that stage play is very biased and naive recollection of events by Charlie - even Maxwell points that out. 
So might as well not be completely true that he hid away from Charlie willingly. 

One thing that don't add up to me is if Maxwell was the one holding power and hiding from Charlie - then why does we find him so fatigued on the throne, even attempting fruitless suicides to escape it, be bound to it and tortured by music for eternity. I don't get why he just willingly disallow Charlie to save him or at least help him escape this misery via turning into dust? But for some reason allowed that to some rando he pulled from real world? Why go with all this work setting up this trap course to protect himself when he doesn't even want to be king at all. I feel like there's more to it than meets the eye. 

[mkemal23]

2 hours ago, RexySeven said:

One thing that don't add up to me is if Maxwell was the one holding power and hiding from Charlie - then why does we find him so fatigued on the throne, even attempting fruitless suicides to escape it, be bound to it and tortured by music for eternity. I don't get why he just willingly disallow Charlie to save him or at least help him escape this misery via turning into dust? But for some reason allowed that to some rando he pulled from real world? Why go with all this work setting up this trap course to protect himself when he doesn't even want to be king at all. I feel like there's more to it than meets the eye. 

Because those two events (Charlie confronting Maxwell, and Wilson beating advanture mode) are most likely gazilion years apart.

Meaning that when Charlie faced him, Maxwell was most likely fine.

But when Wilson faced him he was there for gazillion years listening the same ragtime. So basically didn't care if they beat the advanture mode.

This is also supported by his quote:

"You've been an interesting plaything, but I've grown tired of this game."

So in conclusion:

Maxwell wanted to stay as a king when he saw Charlie so he created adventure mode.

Maxwell still wanted to stay as a king when he saw Wilson but was way to tired to continue.

These whole "if he wanted Wilson to reach him then why didn't he help him?"

And the " if he didn't want Wilson to reach him why didn't he just trap him in a basalt box?" 

Questions are overcomplicating things. This arc was written 13 years ago when dst wasn't even a thing in klei's mind.

So even though its from Charlie's perspective i highy doubt that there was a "deeper meaning" behind the Stage plays. They do a good job explaining the basic idea.

(I also don't know much about the lore, so if there is a misinformation please forgive me )

Edited July 2, 2025 by mkemal23

[Bumber64]

17 hours ago, RexySeven said:

I don't get why he just willingly disallow Charlie to save him or at least help him escape this misery via turning into dust?

He possibly didn't want Charlie to suffer on the throne, considering he already blames himself for her being turned into a monster that attacks survivors in the dark. He didn't care if Wilson, a complete stranger, got stuck on the throne forever.

Edited July 3, 2025 by Bumber64