Speedrunners' suggestions for combat characters are valuable. Give them a chance.

[DegenerateFurry]

5 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Arguing semantics.

Oh, okay, do you want me to propose another term for the group of people who:

• Prioritize killing bosses quickly.
• Emphasize individual player skill.
• Don't really care about the experiences of people who don't play like they do.
• Post videos to show off how quickly they can do things in the game.

Not all elitists are speedrunners and not all speedrunners are elitists, but the overlap is big enough that conflating the terms at times doesn't bother me. 

Doing so is also relevant and important because it points out the specific reason why these people don't understand the experiences of average players: because they play like speedrunners. So, no, I will not specifically view someone's opinion as valuable because they're a "speedrunner" like the title of this thread tells me to. I am actually inclined to dismiss it on matters of game balance because of how different their experiences are from those of most players, who haven't spent ages mastering obscure techniques that make the game's hardest challenges and longest fights feel like a gentle breeze to them. People who speedrun, and people who use speedrunning techniques like animation cancelling regularly in their gameplay, are effectively playing a different game than the rest of us. We should not balance our game around theirs.

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Oh, okay, do you want me to propose another term for the group of people who:

• Prioritize killing bosses quickly.
• Emphasize individual player skill.
• Don't really care about the experiences of people who don't play like they do.
• Post videos to show off how quickly they can do things in the game.

Not all elitists are speedrunners and not all speedrunners are elitists, but the overlap is big enough that conflating the terms at times doesn't bother me. 

Doing so is also relevant and important because it points out the specific reason why these people don't understand the experiences of average players: because they play like speedrunners.

29 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

one of them literally says "git gud". 

the person you're pointing at is a forum regular who has repeatedly expressed distaste for playing the game fast, who has never at any point made any post indicating that they animation cancel or can “kill 3 raid bosses before day 30” (oddly specific requirement), and who has mentioned in previous posts using slow and inefficient strats like weather pains for CC, and this person is, according to you, a speedrunner. ok

[_mylilsunshine_]

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

-spouting BS-

really nice of you to reduce my argument to "just semantics", when you're the one who weaponized semantics to accuse speedrunners. "hurr durr you're being petty and i'm still right." let me try that tactic.

7 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Not all elitists are speedrunners and not all speedrunners are elitists, but the overlap is big enough that conflating the terms at times doesn't bother me. 

not gonna ask how you know this because it sounds like personal petty crap, and you can't prove it anyway.

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Doing so is also relevant and important because it points out the specific reason why these people don't understand the experiences of average players: because they play like speedrunners. So, no, I will not specifically view someone's opinion as valuable because they're a "speedrunner" like the title of this thread tells me to. I am actually inclined to dismiss it on matters of game balance because of how different their experiences are from those of most players, who haven't spent ages mastering obscure techniques that make the game's hardest challenges and longest fights feel like a gentle breeze to them. People who speedrun, and people who use speedrunning techniques like animation cancelling regularly in their gameplay, are effectively playing a different game than the rest of us. We should not balance our game around theirs.

was never arguing with you about this point btw, only called out the part where you were (and still are) disingenuous against other players. 

[DegenerateFurry]

13 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

the person you're pointing at is a forum regular who has repeatedly expressed distaste for playing the game fast, who has never at any point made any post indicating that they animation cancel or can “kill 3 raid bosses before 30” (oddly specific requirement), and who has mentioned in previous posts using slow and inefficient strats like weather pains for CC, and this person is, according to you, a speedrunner. ok

That's just one of the people in one of the many, many, many Fuelweaver nerf threads I participated in and encountered this behavior in, most of which are from last year or longer ago, and many of which you were present in. You know well enough that person wasn't the only one saying stuff like that. Lardee is another. Grm9 is another, and is the one who'd reply to critiques of boss design with videos where he anim-cancels and exploits boss AI (like dodging Fuelweaver's bone cage by perfectly timing a sprint across the Atrium). DST_lover is another. The list goes on, as you well know. I feel like I probably shouldn't be doing the name-and-shame thing, but all of this "nuh-uh, I'm denying things that happened because you're not pointing out anyone specific" is getting on my nerves. 

If you're getting so hung-up on the term "speedrunner" being used to describe people who have an elitist attitude about game balance when most of these people either actively play like speedrunners as seen in videos they've posted, are "officially" speedrunners like Lardee (who exactly decides that?), or at least seem to agree with them consistently enough that I'd expect them to have some skin in the game, I don't really know what to tell you. 

[lowercase skye]

8 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Not all elitists are speedrunners and not all speedrunners are elitists, but the overlap is big enough that conflating the terms at times doesn't bother me.

This is a really mean stance to take. There's no reason to lump all of this category of hobbyist together under the term "elitists", if anything I would say the speedrunning communities for videogames generally seem to love their game's less-traditionally-"skill-based" quirks in a way that shows a certain level of whimsy and enjoyment that would not be found in an "elitist."

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, lowercase skye said:

This is a really mean stance to take. There's no reason to lump all of this category of hobbyist together under the term "elitists", if anything I would say the speedrunning communities for videogames generally seem to love their game's less-traditionally-"skill-based" quirks in a way that shows a certain level of whimsy and enjoyment that would not be found in an "elitist."

In other games, sure. In this one, it seems to correlate to toxicity, even in random Klei servers. Someone's probably gonna whine about me using an anecdote, but a good portion of the people who rush bosses and ruins in those will just hoard the loot or won't wait for anyone else who wants to join in because they're too set on beating a personal record. 

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 Lardee is another

link me to a single Lardee post where he is being in any shape or form condescending to anyone and not providing constructive feedback or his opinions

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 exploits boss AI (like dodging Fuelweaver's bone cage by perfectly timing a sprint across the Atrium)

kiting isn't a glitch

[_mylilsunshine_]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say this:

this is the internet, you communicate through text messages seen through a screen. it's very difficult to tell a person's tone, intention, or biases and such. how can we tell if a person is being serious and straight-laced, or a person is being petty and disingenuous? very hard to do. you can tell i'm being personal in this thread because i specifically worded myself to be like that, but any other day you can't tell what a person is thinking with just pixels on the screen.

so, with that being said: just because a "speedrunner" is being serious, monotonous, and straight-forward with their words doesn't mean that they're being harsh, elitist, or out-of-touch. doesn't mean that they're not being constructive and responsive. you are the one assigning tones and intentions for them, the voice of their opinion is the voice in your head. you are the one who is capable of deciding whether people are being pleasant or infuriatingg.

"speedrunning" or playing fast&efficient or boss-rush is a perfectly valid playstyle, just like megabasing or casual goofing. you should respect the opinion of "speedrunner" not because they're speedrunners, but because they're just as much a part of this game, this community, as you.

i'm not a speedrunner, i don't boss-rush or play the game efficiently (even though i try to). i don't use advanced mechanics (can't even anim cancel) or exploits, or sweat my brows over fighting bosses. i'm a noob first and a casual second. still, why am i "defending speedrunner"? because it would be unfair for me to dismiss their opinions just because i'm a casual, unfair for me to think of them as elitists.

[DegenerateFurry]

22 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

link me to a single Lardee post where he is being in any shape or form condescending to anyone and not providing constructive feedback or his opinions

Done. He even tries to play it off as a joke when someone calls him out. Also, just search his name, you'll find several posts where people reference him having a condescending and sarcastic attitude towards people he disagrees with.

22 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

kiting isn't a glitch

No, but what I'm describing is not kiting. Kiting is just leaving a boss's attack range when they're about to attack you, something everyone who can play the game at a basic level can do. I'm talking about the people who predict exactly when Fuelweaver's bone cage will come off of cooldown out of what amounts to muscle memory so that they can be in exactly the furthest away part of the atrium from him as possible when he casts it, so that it misses them, which it can't otherwise do.

But you know that.

12 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Baseless assumption that is rapidly disproven.

See the link in my post and then do some of your own research instead of just assuming I'm wrong. You know what they say about assuming.

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Done. He even tries to play it off as a joke when someone calls him out. Also, just search his name, you'll find several posts where people reference him having a condescending and sarcastic attitude towards people he disagrees with.

1. It literally was a joke
2. Those people were from Tieba, where they organized in a thread to deliberately attack Lardee

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Kiting is just leaving a boss's attack range when they're about to attack you

this is what the bone cage dodge is

5 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

predict exactly when Fuelweaver's bone cage will come off of cooldown out of what amounts to muscle memory so that they can be in exactly the furthest away part of the atrium from him as possible when he casts it, so that it misses them, which it can't otherwise do

this is not even remotely how you dodge the bone cage

[DegenerateFurry]

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

1. It literally was a joke
2. Those people were from Tieba, where they organized in a thread to deliberately attack Lardee

Woah, I didn't know goalposts could even move that quickly! Now I have to find people who can't nebulously be maligned as "from Tieba" and also find something where he doesn't get defensive if he gets called out? Nah, I think I'll pass, you're not gonna listen even if I do. Especially since he condescendingly told someone "i-it's just a joke, bro, chill out" and you're ignoring that part. 

Also, here's a thought: let's humor your claim that they organized a thread to "attack" him. Why would people do that? Maybe it has something to do with him being rude to them? I'd more readily believe that if such a thread exists, it's just people talking on a forum about him being rude and then saying they're gonna start calling him out for it.

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

this is what the bone cage dodge is

Literally misinformation, kiting Fuelweaver as you would to avoid his attacks will result in you getting caged. The only way I know of to "dodge" it is to just teleport out of it after getting caged, or to have the shadow thurible, but that's not too useful if you haven't yet killed him in your world.

 

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

this is not even remotely how you dodge the bone cage

It's what people seem to be doing in their videos.

[Guille6785]

12 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Literally misinformation

It's what people seem to be doing in their videos

please think for 5 seconds about the fact that you're trying to tell the person who popularized the technique in the west that they don't know how it works (I'm literally the author of the videos you're talking about??? like I'm the one doing the technique)

[Steorra]

39 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

link me to a single Lardee post where he is being in any shape or form condescending to anyone and not providing constructive feedback or his opinions

So many during this beta. Most of them already got hidden. Feel free to check this fact by DM our dear moderators.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

please think for 5 seconds about the fact that you're trying to tell the person who popularized the technique in the west that they don't know how it works (I'm literally the author of the videos you're talking about??? like I'm the one doing the technique)

I'm not saying you don't know how it's done, I said "it's what people seem to be doing in their videos". Also, I'm pretty sure it was actually a GRM9 video I saw? One where he was trying to show off how easy Fuelweaver is for him, or whatever.

But, go ahead, enlighten me. How does it actually work? Because it's not just kiting normally, I've tried that. I can avoid every smack of his skull and yet I still get caged, so just kiting normally (defined in this instance as kiting as you would to avoid the boss's attacks like any other boss, and which works for his normal attacks) doesn't work.

[Bumber64]

14 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Also, here's a thought: let's humor your claim that they organized a thread to "attack" him. Why would people do that?

Maybe because he debunked one of their talking points with a video? They certainly haven't gained a reputation for being civil during the Wendy debacle.

[Guille6785]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm not saying you don't know how it's done, I said "it's what people seem to be doing in their videos". Also, I'm pretty sure it was actually a GRM9 video I saw? 

But, go ahead, enlighten me. How does it actually work? Because it's not just kiting normally, I've tried that. I can avoid every smack of his skull and yet I still get caged. 

I already told you that bone cage dodge is just kiting the attack, the only thing that makes it unique is that it's the longest range kitable attack in the game (fuelweaver casts it within 12 units of the player and it hits all players in a 15 unit radius)

functionally it's exactly the same as dodging the dragonfly's basic attack, the radius is just 3 times as big which makes the positioning require precise timing

[Xu XiuHong]

No No No, Everyone. I don't want this thread to be hidden.  I think we have been off topic.

the topic is  "Because the normal players who play fighting characters is very similar to speedrunners as they all focus on better combat and less resourse consumption. As a result, when speedrunners suggest that a character for fighting is weak for fighting, many normal players agree them'' 

I want to make some combat characters reasonably suitable for combat, like wendy, wigfrid and so on. I want them will make poeple who love combat have a good combat experience while using them. 

 

[Guille6785]

4 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

No No No, Everyone. I don't want this thread to be hidden.  I think we have been off topic.

the topic is  "Because the normal players who play fighting characters is very similar to speedrunners as they all focus on better combat and less resourse consumption. As a result, when speedrunners suggest that a character for fighting is weak for fighting, many normal players agree them'' 

I want to make some combat characters reasonably suitable for combat, like wendy, wigfrid and so on. I want them will make poeple who love combat have a good combat experience while using them. 

 

Respectfully I don't think this topic is really gonna result in any meaningful discussion on these forums for the simple reason that speedrunning in the west vs in the chinese community is a completely different concept, and the western community doesn't really have any mainstream equivalent to the “fast food” playstyle (I do think a productive discussion can be had about how these differences in character perception between communities should be examined by the developers though)

[Xu XiuHong]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I do think a productive discussion can be had about how these differences in character perception between communities should be examined by the developers though

It's like the difference between a professional go player and an amateur go player. You know about Go, a kind of chess. There are differences but not much, everyone's purpose is actually faster. 

[DegenerateFurry]

35 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I already told you that bone cage dodge is just kiting the attack, the only thing that makes it unique is that it's the longest range kitable attack in the game (fuelweaver casts it within 12 units of the player and it hits all players in a 15 unit radius)

functionally it's exactly the same as dodging the dragonfly's basic attack, the radius is just 3 times as big which makes the positioning require precise timing

...

Look at what you're saying here, please.

"You just have to run three times as far away as Dragonfly's attack radius!"

"What do you mean, run across the Atrium to be as far as you can from Fuelweaver? That's ridiculous and not at all what I'm saying!"

I'm gonna ignore the fact that it's utterly ridiculous to expect a single person to know to do this given that it's not indicated in any way by the game that you should. Hang on, let me make a mock-up of what the attack radius would be compared to the size of the Atrium.

Okay, the above image shows Dragonfly's attack radius, as indicated by the Insight mod. I simply traced it with a circle in Paint.NET (as indicated in red) and then sized it up by 300% (to match your three times figure, and as indicated in pink-purple), and it takes up basically the whole Atrium, so you'd need to have Fuelweaver positioned well in addition to running across the entire thing just like I said.

I'm gonna go a step further: going that far away isn't indicated as something you should do by the game, and since Fuelweaver standing in the center of the arena would take up close to the whole thing (save for a couple corners), Klei does not intend for you to be able to outrun the bone cage. They would not have made the radius that big, with basically no warning on the cast, if they wanted you to be able to avoid it. This is thus an exploit. Now, personally? I'm against those being patched when they're this difficult and obscure to pull off, but I know plenty of people here don't see it that way. 

28 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

(I do think a productive discussion can be had about how these differences in character perception between communities should be examined by the developers though)

I think what we're seeing here is honestly not dissimilar to the disconnect between competitive and regular players in Team Fortress 2. Valve decided they'd balance things around the preferences of competitive players and made an effort to make both player groups happy because they wanted TF2 to be an E-sport - neglecting that they were compromising between a tiny minority and the majority - and ended up making decisions that displeased both groups, because they failed to recognize that competitive is a fundamentally different game from the normal one.

There's a parallel between that and how vastly different the experiences of a practiced speedrunner and someone who just plays with their friends or plays DST semi-casually are. Some things in both this game and in TF2 can be used to do crazy stuff by really experienced players, but seem honestly underpowered to regular players, or are way too easy to the speedrunner types, but are way too hard to everyone else.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

Maybe because he debunked one of their talking points with a video? They certainly haven't gained a reputation for being civil during the Wendy debacle.

So what?  He made a video titled "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" what Abigail can tank bosses with Blessed Sisturn III, but I proof "Woodie's Treeguard Feller III can not only tank but also kill the bosses featured in the video", so are the forum residents systematically attacking me? Forum Residents of course hasn't gone that far.

Please stop attacking specific people or proposing conspiracy theories just because they are "Wendy Player", "Chinese", "Brigade" or "from Tieba". It's been 5 months already. They have only shown the same level of behavior and civillity as the Forum Residents. There were bad people among them, but there were also bad people among Forum Resident.

I also want to emphasize that I say it really, really, really not only to you, but to EVERYONE here.

[Dear Community Manager, I am writing this to refute the baseless publicity of things like "Those people were from Tieba, where they organized in a thread to deliberately attack Lardee". It would be really unfair if you just silence the counterarguments without punishing the people who spread these rumors. I trust that you will always be fair.]