Reasonable powerful Wendy

[Xu XiuHong]

This is a thread about Wendy. Before starting, I want to thank my two international friends for encouraging me to share this article.

 

 

 

Here we go.

 

Some view Wendy as strong, while others perceive her as weak. This is due to her polarizing combat style. The presence of Abigail makes Wendy exceptionally unique. When facing small animals, Wendy's combat requires almost no operational skill. However, in boss battles, it demands high-level operational skill to ensure Abigail's survival.

 

Some people may think wendy can fight against boss easily. No, it's probably not as easy as you think. I tried to beat the boss with Wendy, please let me explain. The questions are as follows:

1. When Wendy sends an “dodge” command to abigail, abigail does not execute it immediately but has a Pre-cast delay. This makes it difficult to control abigail to dodge.

2. When Wendy gave the command, she could not move herself, and there was a Post-cast delay. Although the Post-cast delay can be interrupted, it still affects Wendy's dodge.

3.Abigail Dodge Skill CD is 4 seconds long and shared. Abigail still takes a lot of damage when she encounters bosses whose attack intervals are less than 4 seconds. It will be difficult for the single player to keep abigail from getting killed for more than ten minutes when fighting with boss.

 

As a result, Wendy's rhythm of fighting the Boss is very different from other characters. I can use a metaphor for this experience. It’s like someone who used to eat with knives and forks now has to learn to use chopsticks.

 

 

 

However, if we simply boost Abigail's health and defense to help her survive boss fights, it would completely disrupt the game balance. Therefore, my adjustment suggestion is to lower Abigail's control difficulty while reducing her numerical values.‌‌

‌

My suggestions are as follows:

 

1. Cancel Wendy's action to issue the command. That is, cancel the pre-cast delay and post-cast delay. Let Wendy give commands on the move.

2. Change the invincibility time of the command "dodge" to Abigail from 1 SEC to 0.4 SEC, and CD from 4 SEC to 1.5 SEC.

3. As a balance adjustment, remove Abigail's damage reduction as a player unit and replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”.

4. Cancel shared CD.

Giving orders while on the move also ensures that Wendy can fight the boss the same way Wilson, Warly, and Wolfgang do, while paying more attention to Abigail. At the same time, with shorter CD and shorter invincibility time, Abigail will have more dodge opportunities but players need to pay more attention on attack rhythm of bosses. It will make Wendy less difficult than before but still more difficult than these characters and reasonably powerful.

 

Of course, the specific number still needs to be verified repeatedly by designers. I don't have the ability to design the entire skill tree. This is an ambitious task. But please ensure CD is not too long, as this directly impacts operational difficulty.

 

If you can see here, thank you. I'd be honored if you could take my advice.

 

Help me and click “like” for me. If you find my suggestions useful.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

However, if we simply boost Abigail's health and defense to help her survive boss fights, it would completely disrupt the game balance.

It won't if you have no problem with BERNIE!, nurse spiders or base resources dumping gameplay (which eating dumplings and pressing F for auto win).

[Xu XiuHong]

我只是建议。我现在有点看清楚这里的规则了。就是不要在一个角色的帖子下面刷其他的角色。之间那个沃尔特的帖子下面的温蒂发言都被删了。这是一个温蒂的建议帖子，别在刷其他角色了，我的建议帖子还不想被锁住。

I'm just suggesting. I'm starting to see the rules here. Just don't brush other characters under one character's post. All Wendy's comments under Walter's post between now and then have been deleted. This is a Wendy's advice post, stop brushing other characters, my advice post doesn't want to get locked yet.

 

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

我只是建议。我现在有点看清楚这里的规则了。就是不要在一个角色的帖子下面刷其他的角色。之间那个沃尔特的帖子下面的温蒂发言都被删了。这是一个温蒂的建议帖子，别在刷其他角色了，我的建议帖子还不想被锁住。

I'm just suggesting. I'm starting to see the rules here. Just don't brush other characters under one character's post. All Wendy's comments under Walter's post between now and then have been deleted. This is a Wendy's advice post, stop brushing other characters, my advice post doesn't want to get locked yet.

 

You misunderstood the guidelines.

If the thread got locked, it was because the discussion going uncontrollable off topic.

To comparing with other gameplay in DST is legal discussion. Don't be nervous.

[Reiko24]

28 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

This is a thread about Wendy. Before starting, I want to thank my two international friends for encouraging me to share this article.

 

 

 

Here we go.

 

Some view Wendy as strong, while others perceive her as weak. This is due to her polarizing combat style. The presence of Abigail makes Wendy exceptionally unique. When facing small animals, Wendy's combat requires almost no operational skill. However, in boss battles, it demands high-level operational skill to ensure Abigail's survival.

 

Some people may think wendy can fight against boss easily. No, it's probably not as easy as you think. I tried to beat the boss with Wendy, please let me explain. The questions are as follows:

1. When Wendy sends an “dodge” command to abigail, abigail does not execute it immediately but has a Pre-cast delay. This makes it difficult to control abigail to dodge.

2. When Wendy gave the command, she could not move herself, and there was a Post-cast delay. Although the Post-cast delay can be interrupted, it still affects Wendy's dodge.

3.Abigail Dodge Skill CD is 4 seconds long and shared. Abigail still takes a lot of damage when she encounters bosses whose attack intervals are less than 4 seconds. It will be difficult for the single player to keep abigail from getting killed for more than ten minutes when fighting with boss.

 

As a result, Wendy's rhythm of fighting the Boss is very different from other characters. I can use a metaphor for this experience. It’s like someone who used to eat with knives and forks now has to learn to use chopsticks.

 

 

 

However, if we simply boost Abigail's health and defense to help her survive boss fights, it would completely disrupt the game balance. Therefore, my adjustment suggestion is to lower Abigail's control difficulty while reducing her numerical values.‌‌

‌

My suggestions are as follows:

 

1. Cancel Wendy's action to issue the command. That is, cancel the pre-cast delay and post-cast delay. Let Wendy give commands on the move.

2. Change the invincibility time of the command "dodge" to Abigail from 1 SEC to 0.4 SEC, and CD from 4 SEC to 1.5 SEC.

3. As a balance adjustment, remove Abigail's damage reduction as a player unit and replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”.

4. Cancel shared CD.

Giving orders while on the move also ensures that Wendy can fight the boss the same way Wilson, Warly, and Wolfgang do, while paying more attention to Abigail. At the same time, with shorter CD and shorter invincibility time, Abigail will have more dodge opportunities but players need to pay more attention on attack rhythm of bosses. It will make Wendy less difficult than before but still more difficult than these characters and reasonably powerful.

 

Of course, the specific number still needs to be verified repeatedly by designers. I don't have the ability to design the entire skill tree. This is an ambitious task. But please ensure CD is not too long, as this directly impacts operational difficulty.

 

If you can see here, thank you. I'd be honored if you could take my advice.

 

Help me and click “like” for me. If you find my suggestions useful.

Yeah Wendy shouldn’t cast her commands to Abi so slowly. Why can’t she just say something into the flower during combat without picking it up and standing still?

changing this would still make Wendy’s combat skillful, managing elixirs and Abigail commands, but would actually be usable unlike now

[Xu XiuHong]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

It won't if you have no problem with BERNIE!, nurse spiders or base resources dumping gameplay (which eating dumplings and pressing F for auto win).

I thought for it for a long time. If Abigail is very tanky, what will wendy get? Wendy will get a BERNIE with ten skill points，as BERNIE doesn't have AOE without the tenth(ninth?) skill point. And willow herself won't waste her points on BERNIE! because she need her fire skill. Meanwhile, wendy herself can become nurse spiders, making spectral cure-all for abigail. 

The most straightforward way to put it is:Abigail can already dominate all small creatures. If Wendy players don’t need to manually control her because Abigail automatically draws attentions from all bosses and survives on her own, then there’s little reason for Wendy to invest in the command wheel skill tree. Instead, maxing out the mass-production potion skill tree and holding down the F key would suffice, as Abigail tanks all incoming attacks. In theory, the game would effectively be over by the third day when Abigail reaches max level. None of the creatures in DST could beat them. 

My advice is that players seize the moment. As long as the opportunity is seized and Abigail and she evade the Boss's attack at the same time, there will be a high profit, which requires some skills. It will change the dilemma that wendy has to be attacked by the Boss and consume a lot of resources if she doesn't want abigail to die

[Steorra]

36 minutes ago, Xu XiuHong said:

The most straightforward way to put it is:Abigail can already dominate all small creatures. If Wendy players don’t need to manually control her because Abigail automatically draws attentions from all bosses and survives on her own, then there’s little reason for Wendy to invest in the command wheel skill tree. Instead, maxing out the mass-production potion skill tree and holding down the F key would suffice, as Abigail tanks all incoming attacks. In theory, the game would effectively be over by the third day when Abigail reaches max level. None of the creatures in DST could beat them. 

Different playstyle for different players. That's healthy design.

We can't cut down resources dumping (CureAll spamming) gameplay to "teach" players about "what is right way to play as Wendy".

If you think the command wheel is enough, you could ignore the elixir line. Because you don't need it.

If someone think the command wheel is hard to use, they could go elixir line for resource dumping playstyle, leave the high skill needed playstyle away.

High skill needed playstyle should have more rewards than resources dumpling style. So give some limit to resources dumping is Okay. But it should be an valid option for those who prefer this style. The current stage resources dumping style is almost completely unavailable for Wendy and Abby. Only available for Wes version Wendy.

 

All above is my opinions towards our discussion.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

This is a thread about Wendy. Before starting, I want to thank my two international friends for encouraging me to share this article.

 

 

 

Here we go.

 

Some view Wendy as strong, while others perceive her as weak. This is due to her polarizing combat style. The presence of Abigail makes Wendy exceptionally unique. When facing small animals, Wendy's combat requires almost no operational skill. However, in boss battles, it demands high-level operational skill to ensure Abigail's survival.

 

Some people may think wendy can fight against boss easily. No, it's probably not as easy as you think. I tried to beat the boss with Wendy, please let me explain. The questions are as follows:

1. When Wendy sends an “dodge” command to abigail, abigail does not execute it immediately but has a Pre-cast delay. This makes it difficult to control abigail to dodge.

2. When Wendy gave the command, she could not move herself, and there was a Post-cast delay. Although the Post-cast delay can be interrupted, it still affects Wendy's dodge.

3.Abigail Dodge Skill CD is 4 seconds long and shared. Abigail still takes a lot of damage when she encounters bosses whose attack intervals are less than 4 seconds. It will be difficult for the single player to keep abigail from getting killed for more than ten minutes when fighting with boss.

 

As a result, Wendy's rhythm of fighting the Boss is very different from other characters. I can use a metaphor for this experience. It’s like someone who used to eat with knives and forks now has to learn to use chopsticks.

 

 

 

However, if we simply boost Abigail's health and defense to help her survive boss fights, it would completely disrupt the game balance. Therefore, my adjustment suggestion is to lower Abigail's control difficulty while reducing her numerical values.‌‌

‌

My suggestions are as follows:

 

1. Cancel Wendy's action to issue the command. That is, cancel the pre-cast delay and post-cast delay. Let Wendy give commands on the move.

2. Change the invincibility time of the command "dodge" to Abigail from 1 SEC to 0.4 SEC, and CD from 4 SEC to 1.5 SEC.

3. As a balance adjustment, remove Abigail's damage reduction as a player unit and replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”.

4. Cancel shared CD.

Giving orders while on the move also ensures that Wendy can fight the boss the same way Wilson, Warly, and Wolfgang do, while paying more attention to Abigail. At the same time, with shorter CD and shorter invincibility time, Abigail will have more dodge opportunities but players need to pay more attention on attack rhythm of bosses. It will make Wendy less difficult than before but still more difficult than these characters and reasonably powerful.

 

Of course, the specific number still needs to be verified repeatedly by designers. I don't have the ability to design the entire skill tree. This is an ambitious task. But please ensure CD is not too long, as this directly impacts operational difficulty.

 

If you can see here, thank you. I'd be honored if you could take my advice.

 

Help me and click “like” for me. If you find my suggestions useful.

Honestly this is a really good idea though this does even more than before make me wish we could bind the commands to a hotkey it would make Wendy's gameplay peak alongside your idea.

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

3. As a balance adjustment, remove Abigail's damage reduction as a player unit and replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”.

This should be fine to stay though just as a safety net for people who aren't as good at dodging.

[Yifei_]

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

Some view Wendy as strong, while others perceive her as weak. This is due to her polarizing combat style. The presence of Abigail makes Wendy exceptionally unique. When facing small animals, Wendy's combat requires almost no operational skill. However, in boss battles, it demands high-level operational skill to ensure Abigail's survival.

 

Some people may think wendy can fight against boss easily. No, it's probably not as easy as you think. I tried to beat the boss with Wendy, please let me explain. The questions are as follows:

关于这个强弱的问题，这个是我的看法。

其一，我认为温蒂易上手的同时有一定的上限，但是很多人忽略了要达到上限这个过程需要的学习、练习成本问题，而且即使掌握了相关战术，实际环境中的容错也相当的低。我自己温蒂玩了上千小时，温蒂各种boss的打法和速通我都练习尝试过，这个学习过程相当艰难，你要同时照顾两个单位的位置，容错率和其他角色比很低，稍有不慎就会成为女版维斯。况且在裂隙后新出的boss动不动就击飞，位面实体抵抗使得战牛的高额伤害大打折扣。

其二，国内公共服务器里的一种主流玩法叫“快餐档”（开局的时候商量位置，一般是以速通天体英雄为目标，15~30天内完成整个天体线并结档重置世界），其中温蒂的团队定位就是“划水的混子”，在团队中几乎没有什么贡献。我不知道你有没有玩过快餐档，根据我快餐档的经验，建家有奶奶老麦植物人（除了温蒂外我主玩奶奶也是这个原因），清远古有大力士火女女武神，猴月鲨有伍迪，珍珠有恶魔，档案馆有威尔逊。至于打蜘蛛蜜蜂，稍微有一点游戏经验的人就会知道如何不用温蒂处理这些小怪，而且aoe早就不是什么稀奇事了。在这种15~30天内速通天体的环境下温蒂几乎起不到什么独特的团队作用，就连威尔逊也因为能够搓彩虹宝石在快餐档里还会受到青睐。并且我在b站上也观察到了一个现象，那些研究温蒂速通、游戏时长四五位数小时的up主，反而认为温蒂很弱，需要技能树来弥补相关弱点。

Regarding the issue of strength and weakness, here are my opinions.

Firstly, I think Wendy is easy to pick up but has a certain ceiling. However, many people overlook the learning and practice costs required to reach that ceiling. Even if you master the relevant tactics, the margin for error in actual gameplay is quite low. I myself have played Wendy for over a thousand hours, and I've practiced and tried various boss strategies and speedruns with her. This learning process was quite arduous. You have to manage the positioning of two units simultaneously, and the margin for error is much lower compared to other characters. A slight mistake can turn you into the female version of Wes. Moreover, the bosses introduced after the Rifts often have knockback abilities, and the planar entity resistance significantly reduces the high damage output of the Beefalo.

Secondly, there's a mainstream playstyle on domestic public servers called "kuai can dang" (where positions are agreed upon at the start, usually aiming to speedrun the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days and then reset the world). In this context, Wendy's role in the team is often seen as a "slacker" who contributes almost nothing to the team. I don't know if you've played kuai can dang, but based on my experience, building the base is handled by characters like Wickerbottom, Maxwell, and Wormwood (This is why I also main Wickerbottom); clearing the Ruins is done by Wolfgang, Willow, and Wigfrid; dealing with Monkey/Moon/Shark Island is handled by Woodie; Pearl is handled by Wortox; and the Archives are handled by Wilson. As for dealing with spiders and bees, anyone with a bit of game experience knows how to handle these mobs without Wendy, and AOE damage is nothing new. In the context of speedrunning the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days, Wendy hardly plays any unique role in the team. Even Wilson is favored in kuai can dang because he can craft the rainbow gem. Additionally, I've observed a phenomenon on Bilibili where content creators who specialize in Wendy speedruns and have thousands of hours of gameplay experience actually consider Wendy to be weak and in need of a skill tree to compensate for her weaknesses.

[Xu XiuHong]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Different playstyle for different players. That's healthy design.

We can't cut down resources dumping (CureAll spamming) gameplay to "teach" players about "what is right way to play as Wendy".

If you think the command wheel is enough, you could ignore the elixir line. Because you don't need it.

If someone think the command wheel is hard to use, they could go elixir line for resource dumping playstyle, leave the high skill needed playstyle away.

High skill needed playstyle should have more rewards than resources dumpling style. So give some limit to resources dumping is Okay. But it should be an valid option for those who prefer this style. The current stage resources dumping style is almost completely unavailable for Wendy and Abby. Only available for Wes version Wendy.

 

All above is my opinions towards our discussion.

Many numbers can be changed.

 

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

2. Change the invincibility time of the command "dodge" to Abigail from 1 SEC to 0.4 SEC, and CD from 4 SEC to 1.5 SEC.

we can change the numbers above, like "Change the invincibility time of the command "dodge" to Abigail from 1 SEC to 0.6 SEC  ". that's easy, just some number, very easy for the designer. 

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

As a balance adjustment, remove Abigail's damage reduction as a player unit and replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”

this one can also be changed, like"replace it with“shorter the CD from 1.5 SEC to 1 SEC”or double cure for the elixir line ". it could be changed.

as i said below:

2 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

Of course, the specific number still needs to be verified repeatedly by designers. I don't have the ability to design the entire skill tree. This is an ambitious task. But please ensure CD is not too long, as this directly impacts operational difficulty.

 

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

其一，我认为温蒂易上手的同时有一定的上限，但是很多人忽略了要达到上限这个过程需要的学习、练习成本问题，而且即使掌握了相关战术，实际环境中的容错也相当的低。

是的，阿比盖尔的增伤深入人心。我是希望Wendy可以移动施法，并且阿比盖尔高频率的可操控无敌帧。可以类比一下王者荣耀里的貂蝉，如果你玩过王者荣耀的话。这个时候容错率会比以前高很多很多，并且不会让大佬们的练习白费。

 

4 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

国内公共服务器里的一种主流玩法叫“快餐档”（开局的时候商量位置，一般是以速通天体英雄为目标，15~30天内完成整个天体线并结档重置世界）

是的，我听说过，秋季战神。我并不是大佬，甚至可以说相当萌新了，在饥荒我主要玩沃利。我记住了全部的菜谱（可能会忘一两个额），所以我游玩的节奏比较慢。其实就是刚才那个人说的药膏战神。但是我在其他竞技类游戏里面还是很有实力的，玩饥荒主要是放松养老（因为这类游戏真的很适合干这个）。

如果希望用温蒂速通的话，我的建议也是可以的，只要无敌帧放的好，同时Wendy自己的走位好，几乎不需要资源消耗，这会让收集资源的时间节省下来。就是不知道会不会被看见了。

当然，也有可能是我想当然了，也许饥荒有一些boss是没有办法走位的，那么还是要准备好饺子和防具。abigail无敌帧的话只要不被冰冻，催眠。。技能都能用的吧。

[Yifei_]

15 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

是的，我听说过，秋季战神。我并不是大佬，甚至可以说相当萌新了，在饥荒我主要玩沃利。我记住了全部的菜谱（可能会忘一两个额），所以我游玩的节奏比较慢。其实就是刚才那个人说的药膏战神。但是我在其他竞技类游戏里面还是很有实力的，玩饥荒主要是放松养老（因为这类游戏真的很适合干这个）。

如果希望用温蒂速通的话，我的建议也是可以的，只要无敌帧放的好，同时Wendy自己的走位好，几乎不需要资源消耗，这会让收集资源的时间节省下来。就是不知道会不会被看见了。

当然，也有可能是我想当然了，也许饥荒有一些boss是没有办法走位的，那么还是要准备好饺子和防具。abigail无敌帧的话只要不被冰冻，催眠。。技能都能用的吧。

对的，也有人叫秋季战神，毕竟特点就是到了冬天基本上人都跑完了（雾）。

温蒂单人速通的强度和上限是有的，我记得有b站上有种子地图（我们是分得清楚随机图/种子图的区别的，不像某些人）29天完成温蒂全boss速通，技能树前。但在这种多人公共服务器的快餐档环境下温蒂的优势发挥不出来，最多就帮帮建家的打打杂，所以让人觉得温蒂很弱。

无敌帧这个用花语轮盘里的逃脱指令可以完成，效果还可以，尤其是对付天体和犀牛的时候。

40 minutes ago, Steorra said:

48 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

who cares

Pre-empitive.

What method did this person use to provoke some players this time? I'm quite curious. It seems he has already grasped the style of our dear forum administrator.

[Walrusst]

18 hours ago, Steorra said:

It won't if you have no problem with BERNIE!, nurse spiders or base resources dumping gameplay (which eating dumplings and pressing F for auto win).

I mean resource dumps and fetching exotic allies are cases where the prep time is the bossfight.
A slam, a fire attack, or an epic roar can stun the nurse spiders long enough you lose your unit mass, so that isn't quite so foolproof.

And the difference between reviving abby with potions, and having the beardhair for several bernies in prep work isn't really that different.
Yes you need to kite/accept reduced damage for her recovery window, but good vex abby builds are among the highest damage setups anyhow, with relatively low running costs once you set her up. So you have longer down windows then swapping out several bears, cool, but your payoff when you are engaging a target is massive.

People who dump 12 stacks of resources into a fight probably find the resource gathering part interesting and less the kiting combat integrity.
After all, there were people who were proud to show they could formulate ways to hard facetank dragonfly without sleeping it.

[YouKnowWho142]

15 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Secondly, there's a mainstream playstyle on domestic public servers called "kuai can dang" (where positions are agreed upon at the start, usually aiming to speedrun the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days and then reset the world). In this context, Wendy's role in the team is often seen as a "slacker" who contributes almost nothing to the team. I don't know if you've played kuai can dang, but based on my experience, building the base is handled by characters like Wickerbottom, Maxwell, and Wormwood (This is why I also main Wickerbottom); clearing the Ruins is done by Wolfgang, Willow, and Wigfrid; dealing with Monkey/Moon/Shark Island is handled by Woodie; Pearl is handled by Wortox; and the Archives are handled by Wilson. As for dealing with spiders and bees, anyone with a bit of game experience knows how to handle these mobs without Wendy, and AOE damage is nothing new. In the context of speedrunning the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days, Wendy hardly plays any unique role in the team. Even Wilson is favored in kuai can dang because he can craft the rainbow gem. Additionally, I've observed a phenomenon on Bilibili where content creators who specialize in Wendy speedruns and have thousands of hours of gameplay experience actually consider Wendy to be weak and in need of a skill tree to compensate for her weaknesses.

Character balance absolutely shouldn't revolve around speedrunning in the slightest and the fact that some characters speedrun better than others does not invalidate the characters who can't. thinking every character needs to be able to clear everything in the game immediately is not at all a healthy way to view the game

that isn't even to mention that it is a co-op survival/sandbox game and doesn't need a meta, some things are better than others but most people don't mind not playing fully optimally and that should be respected just as much as the people who do

[Yifei_]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

Character balance absolutely shouldn't revolve around speedrunning in the slightest and the fact that some characters speedrun better than others does not invalidate the characters who can't. thinking every character needs to be able to clear everything in the game immediately is not at all a healthy way to view the game

Where did I mention balance? Where did I say that the game should be changed because of speedrunning? Where did I claim which playstyle is healthy or unhealthy? I was merely explaining why many domestic players don't consider Wendy to be strong; this difference in playstyle leads to varying perceptions of her strength. Honestly, I was simply analyzing this phenomenon from my perspective, I have no idea how you came up with the accusation of "thinking every character needs to be able to clear everything.".

[Walrusst]

3 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Character balance absolutely shouldn't revolve around speedrunning in the slightest and the fact that some characters speedrun better than others does not invalidate the characters who can't. thinking every character needs to be able to clear everything in the game immediately is not at all a healthy way to view the game

that isn't even to mention that it is a co-op survival/sandbox game and doesn't need a meta, some things are better than others but most people don't mind not playing fully optimally and that should be respected just as much as the people who do

Ah yes lets obliterate walter again because uh...

Carries chess pieces slightly faster and can concentrate on fewer overall tasks earlier in a run because he got half the objectives in the first week because of hyper specific routing quirks that you lose automatically if you aren't exactly on point the first day.
Speedrun times are a tiny part of the player experience, and to back who here up a bit.

I kinda value the people who play the games experience more than the stream viewer audience, both matter cause twitch introduces people to the game, but obviously, the players need to have fun first.

[Xu XiuHong]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

温蒂单人速通的强度和上限是有的

其实我觉得速通这件事情应该是角色自己跟自己来比较。或者是一个固定的团队自己跟自己比较。跟其他角色比较还是太难比较了。每个角色都不同，只要wendy比改之前的速通速度要快，就可以了。

问题在于一个角色速通如果很慢的话，这个角色本身也不会太强。这一点应该很符合直觉，所以要是真的想让速通被看见可以从这个方向论证。会更容易被接受。

In fact, I think the matter of speedrunning should be compared with the character himself. Or a fixed team comparing itself to itself. It's hard to compare to other characters. Every character is different, and as long as wendy is faster than she was before, that's fine.

The problem is that if a character's speed is slow, the character itself is not too strong. This should be intuitive.

[Evelo]

I think Wendy is in a good spot right now and needs no changes.

[Xu XiuHong]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I think Wendy is in a good spot right now and needs no changes.

The thread “The main problem with Windy and her skill tree” by Cremelover has explained it in detail. Plz read it carefully, and you will know why.

My thread mainly talks about fighting. And Cremelover talked about wendy's life. His profile avatar is woomwood too. Maybe you will share the same idea.

Oh,no. maybe he change his avatar.

[SilverSpoon]

19 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Secondly, there's a mainstream playstyle on domestic public servers called "kuai can dang" (where positions are agreed upon at the start, usually aiming to speedrun the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days and then reset the world). In this context, Wendy's role in the team is often seen as a "slacker" who contributes almost nothing to the team. I don't know if you've played kuai can dang, but based on my experience, building the base is handled by characters like Wickerbottom, Maxwell, and Wormwood (This is why I also main Wickerbottom); clearing the Ruins is done by Wolfgang, Willow, and Wigfrid; dealing with Monkey/Moon/Shark Island is handled by Woodie; Pearl is handled by Wortox; and the Archives are handled by Wilson. As for dealing with spiders and bees, anyone with a bit of game experience knows how to handle these mobs without Wendy, and AOE damage is nothing new. In the context of speedrunning the Celestial Champion within 15~30 days, Wendy hardly plays any unique role in the team. Even Wilson is favored in kuai can dang because he can craft the rainbow gem. Additionally, I've observed a phenomenon on Bilibili where content creators who specialize in Wendy speedruns and have thousands of hours of gameplay experience actually consider Wendy to be weak and in need of a skill tree to compensate for her weaknesses.

Local specialty of the OFFICIAL Don't Starve Together forums, the discussion has gone off topic due to unnecessary toxicity(And the Community Manager of Fairness never punish people who do it repeatedly), but I must agree that it is not a good idea to base balance adjustments on performance under specific rules, including speed runs. The game should be balanced not only around defeating the Celestial Champions, but around the overall gameplay include defeating the Ancient Fuelweaver and after they are defeated ant other thing.

Also, even under that "kuai can dang" rules, Wendy has high suitability against Crab King in terms of Scare and Healing interrupt, so I think she will actually be able to perform well.

21 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

However, if we simply boost Abigail's health and defense to help her survive boss fights, it would completely disrupt the game balance. Therefore, my adjustment suggestion is to lower Abigail's control difficulty while reducing her numerical values.

I agree with you about "easing the difficulty of playing as Wendy," but the game balance would not be disrupt even Abigail did not die. This game already allows you to cheese most of the bosses, and Woodie's Treeguard Feller III can even kill bosses with AFK, so even if Abigail doesn't die, it's a small issue.

So to prevent casual players who are not good at keeping Abigail alive from being forced to play as "Damage Multiplierx0.75 Wilson", I've said that it's not appropriate to "make it impossible" to use "Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All Spam" as a last resort to tank Abigail,  (I'll tell everyone in advance, Forget-Me-Lots is not at all casual player-like.) I think that the penalty for Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All Spam should be to reduce the recovery time rather than the recovery amount, so that appropriate resource consumption is required, or to reduce damage while healing.

 

[Xu XiuHong]

9 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think that the penalty for Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All Spam should be to reduce the recovery time rather than the recovery amount, so that appropriate resource consumption is required, or to reduce damage while healing.

yes

[Yifei_]

22 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Local specialty of the OFFICIAL Don't Starve Together forums, the discussion has gone off topic due to unnecessary toxicity(And the Community Manager of Fairness never punish people who do it repeatedly), but I must agree that it is not a good idea to base balance adjustments on performance under specific rules, including speed runs. The game should be balanced not only around defeating the Celestial Champions, but around the overall gameplay include defeating the Ancient Fuelweaver and after they are defeated ant other thing.

Also, even under that "kuai can dang" rules, Wendy has high suitability against Crab King in terms of Scare and Healing interrupt, so I think she will actually be able to perform well.

Oh, my apologies, I didn’t notice earlier. “Kuai can dang” was a mistranslation; the correct translation should be “fast-food-style servers.” Also, I should clarify that not all Chinese public servers follow this playstyle—it’s just one of the more popular ones.

There seems to be a misunderstanding: I’m not using this to demand balance adjustments or character tier lists. I’m simply explaining how different playstyles lead to different understandings of the game. This is partly why “too strong” became a meme in the community: there’s a noticeable discrepancy between the developers’ and the community’s perception of character strength (though fast-food-style servers are only one factor, as not everyone plays this way. In my previous post, I identified the steep learning curve and low margin for error as the more significant reasons).

Now, some people seem deeply offended by this playstyle, and I don’t understand why. Why such strong opposition to a different pace of play? Is it somehow an “inferior” way to play? In fast-food-style servers, every character’s depth and strengths are pushed to their limits, essentially exploring the optimal solution for celestial content. For example, I’ve seen a Wilson complete the Archives and Pearl’s questline in 8 days (of course, this depends on mod configurations and team coordination) and a Wortox (without a skill tree) obtain the Pearl in 6 days. This process of research and practice is highly rewarding. I’m not saying everyone must follow this “optimal” path—play however you enjoy it. Why impose so many restrictions on a game?

As for Crab King, he’s a fairly simple boss, and whether or not Wendy is used doesn’t make much difference (though using Abigail’s scare ability against him is a great idea). While fast-food-style servers often focus on speedrunning celestial content, sometimes they also take advantage of the moonless phase after defeating the Celestial Champion to kill the Ancient Fuelweaver with shadow atrium. In multiplayer, my experience with Wendy against the Ancient Fuelweaver is either the boss gets killed too quickly due to the number of players, or the chaotic aggro makes it hard to position Abigail, causing her to die fast.

I mostly play Wendy in single-player and Wickerbottom in multiplayer. In fast-food-style servers, I usually main Wickerbottom. If you’re interested, you can check the hidden contents in this post for my approach to building base with Wickerbottom in fast-food-style servers—aiming for a balance of speed, practicality, and aesthetics.

 

[Prinha]

3 hours ago, Xu XiuHong said:

The thread “The main problem with Windy and her skill tree” by Cremelover has explained it in detail. Plz read it carefully, and you will know why.

My thread mainly talks about fighting. And Cremelover talked about wendy's life. His profile avatar is woomwood too. Maybe you will share the same idea.

Okay so Asian players with highly organized cooperative play are aware that Wendy has weaknesses and that the mass destruction of spiders/bees/splumonkeys is not all that meaningful when trying to rush bosses.
 
That doesn't mean that Wendy needs buffs or is weak. Wendy is one of the most popular characters. She is thematically popular (little goth girl obsessed with death anyone?) and she trivializes a lot of everyday combat. You can literally just run around any number of spider dens and pick up loot while Abigail rains death and destruction. That's very appealing to newer player who haven't learned how to fight yet. Wendy also loses less sanity than other characters and thus has an easier time avoiding her downside of fighting shadows with a 75% multiplier. Another thing that makes her appealing to newer players. She's also less reliant on weapons and armor in these situations so that she's easier to do stuff with in public severs where pigskin and gold have already been looted by others.

When it comes to bosses Wendy's strength varies much more than other characters. Abigail dies very quickly in any bossfight without additional maintenance and that turns Wendy into a 75% dmg character with no meaningful perks. Some bosses are easy to fight on a beefalo and also do barely any dmg to Abigail for example Dragonfly. Those bosses make Wendy look incredibly strong. And then we have bosses where it's almost impossible to keep Abigail alive like the tier 3 shadow rook. We have bosses that are much harder or riskier with a beefalo like Crabking or Nightmare Werepig. Bosses that can't be fought with a war saddle. Bosses that are very risky to fight with AoE like Klaus. 

Yet for some reason people on this board make excel sheets comparing Wendy's dps on a war saddle beefalo with Abigail hitting the same target to mighty Wolfgang who does not have to manage a second body, can row a boat or wear a magi while fighting. And then they say that Wendy needs to be nerfed.
A day later the same people show up and demand that Wendy be buffed because as it turns out the theoretical super dps with warsaddle and Abigail can only ever be achieved in very few select fights.

Klei gave Abigail two forms. Gestalt Abi is much easier to keep alive. So how about we wait until things have settled and the global community has figured out what is and isn't possible before crying. The most played character can't be so weak that she needs desperate help through a skill tree. She's a low skill floor high skill ceiling type of character.

And yes I get tired of managing Abi/Beefalo, too. Sometimes I just want to hit things with the pointy end of a stick without all this other extra hub hub that's necessary for Wendy. And then I simply play as a different character for a while.

edit: As for CC. In my opinion Wendy is the best character to do the moonstorm events with.

[Helenar]

I love the concept of fast-food style public servers. The way I usually play the game is rushing bosses solo, so it would be super fun to just hop into a big world to optimalise boss killing with a team. 

That being said, I don't think characters should be balanced around this style per se. The amount of characters that are optimal for this style are limited, and making Wendy optimal for it would just kick out a different character from that role. 

I think that overall, the Wendy skill tree does what it needs to do. Wendy was already popular and had a solid gameplay loop. The Tree made her flaws a bit lesser - mainly that potions are easier to amass, and she got a bit more tanky against bosses. She also got some fun, interesting stuff; the affinities are really cool, and both are viable, and drinking potions yourself is a fun gimmick. 

I do agree with points made about Wendy's skill tree having some flaws that really need to be ironed out, and I have faith that Klei will do that over time. The most reasonable complaints I have heard is that giving Abby player status is a weird way of giving her defensibility against bosses, as it's pretty inconsistent, and the command wheel has some response issues. 

All in all: I think Wendy has a perfectly fine niche in the game, and it's okay that that niche isn't multiplayer bosses. I think her skill tree is fine, but does need some minor attention. People just had very high expectations of Wendy, which were impossible for Klei to meet. 

[Yifei_]

3 hours ago, Prinha said:

Okay so Asian players with highly organized cooperative play are aware that Wendy has weaknesses and that the mass destruction of spiders/bees/splumonkeys is not all that meaningful when trying to rush bosses.
 
That doesn't mean that Wendy needs buffs or is weak. Wendy is one of the most popular characters. She is thematically popular (little goth girl obsessed with death anyone?) and she trivializes a lot of everyday combat. You can literally just run around any number of spider dens and pick up loot while Abigail rains death and destruction. That's very appealing to newer player who haven't learned how to fight yet. Wendy also loses less sanity than other characters and thus has an easier time avoiding her downside of fighting shadows with a 75% multiplier. Another thing that makes her appealing to newer players. She's also less reliant on weapons and armor in these situations so that she's easier to do stuff with in public severs where pigskin and gold have already been looted by others.

When it comes to bosses Wendy's strength varies much more than other characters. Abigail dies very quickly in any bossfight without additional maintenance and that turns Wendy into a 75% dmg character with no meaningful perks. Some bosses are easy to fight on a beefalo and also do barely any dmg to Abigail for example Dragonfly. Those bosses make Wendy look incredibly strong. And then we have bosses where it's almost impossible to keep Abigail alive like the tier 3 shadow rook. We have bosses that are much harder or riskier with a beefalo like Crabking or Nightmare Werepig. Bosses that can't be fought with a war saddle. Bosses that are very risky to fight with AoE like Klaus. 

Yet for some reason people on this board make excel sheets comparing Wendy's dps on a war saddle beefalo with Abigail hitting the same target to mighty Wolfgang who does not have to manage a second body, can row a boat or wear a magi while fighting. And then they say that Wendy needs to be nerfed.
A day later the same people show up and demand that Wendy be buffed because as it turns out the theoretical super dps with warsaddle and Abigail can only ever be achieved in very few select fights.

Klei gave Abigail two forms. Gestalt Abi is much easier to keep alive. So how about we wait until things have settled and the global community has figured out what is and isn't possible before crying. The most played character can't be so weak that she needs desperate help through a skill tree. She's a low skill floor high skill ceiling type of character.

And yes I get tired of managing Abi/Beefalo, too. Sometimes I just want to hit things with the pointy end of a stick without all this other extra hub hub that's necessary for Wendy. And then I simply play as a different character for a while.

edit: As for CC. In my opinion Wendy is the best character to do the moonstorm events with.

The fast-food-style playstyle does lead to different perceptions of character strength among players, but I agree with your point that there’s no need to base balance and character strength solely on this one playstyle, and I’ve never suggested otherwise. I introduced this playstyle to analyze why some players don’t consider Wendy to be strong. Additionally, fast-food-style servers are only part of the reason; the steep learning curve and low margin for error also need to be taken into account.

As for Lunar Abigail, I’ve personally tested her performance against all bosses in Don’t Starve, and based on the results, I don’t believe her advantages over Normal Abigail are particularly significant. However, I should clarify that this might be influenced by my proficiency with Normal Abigail, and the tests were conducted in the beta version, so the findings may no longer be relevant.

Regarding Shadow Rook III, a viable strategy is to rile up Abigail and position her on the opposite side of you, with Shadow Rook III between her and you. When Shadow Rook attacks, dodge away from Abigail, causing Shadow Rook to land precisely between Abigail and Wendy, ensuring both survive. And at this point, do not use the player tag of the Blessed Sisturn III, as it is ineffective against the Shadow Rook.

In fast-food-style servers, Moonstorm-related tasks are usually completed more efficiently by several players working together, and Infused Moon Shards are typically collected using Wickerbottom’s The End is Nigh.

44 minutes ago, Helenar said:

I love the concept of fast-food style public servers. The way I usually play the game is rushing bosses solo, so it would be super fun to just hop into a big world to optimalise boss killing with a team. 

That being said, I don't think characters should be balanced around this style per se. The amount of characters that are optimal for this style are limited, and making Wendy optimal for it would just kick out a different character from that role. 

I think that overall, the Wendy skill tree does what it needs to do. Wendy was already popular and had a solid gameplay loop. The Tree made her flaws a bit lesser - mainly that potions are easier to amass, and she got a bit more tanky against bosses. She also got some fun, interesting stuff; the affinities are really cool, and both are viable, and drinking potions yourself is a fun gimmick. 

I do agree with points made about Wendy's skill tree having some flaws that really need to be ironed out, and I have faith that Klei will do that over time. The most reasonable complaints I have heard is that giving Abby player status is a weird way of giving her defensibility against bosses, as it's pretty inconsistent, and the command wheel has some response issues. 

All in all: I think Wendy has a perfectly fine niche in the game, and it's okay that that niche isn't multiplayer bosses. I think her skill tree is fine, but does need some minor attention. People just had very high expectations of Wendy, which were impossible for Klei to meet. 

I also enjoy playing fast-food-style servers. This playstyle encourages players to explore the full potential of a character and places high demands on teamwork and role division, fitting perfectly with the "Don't Starve Together" vibe. Additionally, each game typically lasts around 2 to 4 hours, which falls within an acceptable timeframe. This is also the origin of the name "fast-food": to experience as much of the game content as possible in a short amount of time.

Regarding the statement, "I think Wendy has a perfectly fine niche in the game, and it's okay that that niche isn't multiplayer bosses," I agree with this perspective. This is also the main reason why I love playing Wendy in single-player modes but seldom choose her in multiplayer modes.

Some branches of Wendy’s skill tree are well-designed, but overall, it still feels like there’s a lot of unnecessary tedium in her skill tree, as discussed in many other threads.

[Helenar]

18 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

also enjoy playing fast-food-style servers. This playstyle encourages players to explore the full potential of a character and places high demands on teamwork and role division, fitting perfectly with the "Don't Starve Together" vibe. Additionally, each game typically lasts around 2 to 4 hours, which falls within an acceptable timeframe. This is also the origin of the name "fast-food": to experience as much of the game content as possible in a short amount of time.

I'm definitely gonna force the friends that I introduced to the game that are not that good at it to do a fast food world with me. I think that'd be super funny.