Revert theShadow Abigail nerf

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, WilsonHiggs said:

go arround

You never learnt how to build a bee farm for fast catching didn't you? I was thought everyone would at least heard about it after Wortox's tree patched out.

[WilsonHiggs]

26 minutes ago, Steorra said:

You never learnt how to build a bee farm for fast catching didn't you? I was thought everyone would at least heard about it after Wortox's tree patched out.

Takes less time to pick what abigail kills than catching your own bees considering that bees become hostile when you catch them

You should learn many things before saying that to someone who was building beeboxes before you were able to tie your shoes by yourself 

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

bees become hostile when you catch them

Any problems when they are freezing? 

[Prinha]

51 minutes ago, Veklad said:

The problem is that to revive 20 butterflies you have to farm 40 mourning glories, keep that in mind for each battle in which you want to have 160s of shadow abi and you will realize how tedious it is.

Look,  I'm all for extending the duration or making it easier to keep this buff up. 

Farming 40 Mourning Glories is very easy for me now. It's two pipspook which conveniently spawn in my base because I moved three headstones.
However you don't have to farm MG and revice butterflies. You can also make two bugnets and catch the bees from your bee box after harvesting.

In case that isn't clear, I only use the shadow Abi buff for boss fights. Doing so for "every battle" seems overkill and a waste.

[Bumber64]

17 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Do you need that much time to click a crafting buttom? If you prefer to go arround wasting time catching bees with a bug net... that is on you

1 butterfly = 1 craft. 20 butterflies = 20 crafts.

That's on top of waiting around for the butterflies to spawn, and doing about two pipspook quests (40 MG). You can reuse the wings (if you don't get butter instead) but they spoil so you'll need to wrap them if you're doing other stuff.

Compare to just crafting two nets and grabbing some bees. (Or use 1/5 of a thulecite one.) Killer bees are preferable, but boxes work if you were willing to put in the effort to plant flowers.

[DVGMedia]

On 3/3/2025 at 4:22 AM, Prinha said:

 

In case that isn't clear, I only use the shadow Abi buff for boss fights. Doing so for "every battle" seems overkill and a waste.

It is supposed be be for more of the generic battles though that's why it has such a short duration the thought of shadow is that it's to help Abby in the everyday. However it doesn't really do that because it doesn't really save any time since need to go out of the way to do it 

I think what would be better is making it like the maul where Abby levels up over time doing more damage in all her forms 

It would still be the 25 planar but like every 100 kills Abby gains 1 planar which leads to Wendy still doing her usual gameplay  while slowly buffing Abby  to be stronger over time.  And if Abby dies she loses  half of her progress. 

[Prinha]

28 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

It is supposed be be for more of the generic battles though that's why it has such a short duration the thought of shadow is that it's to help Abby in the everyday.

How do you know what this skill "is supposed" to do? And how do you know why its duration is what it is?

What everyday situations does Abigail need help with? 

[DVGMedia]

15 minutes ago, Prinha said:

How do you know what this skill "is supposed" to do? And how do you know why its duration is what it is?

What everyday situations does Abigail need help with? 

Well just in the nature of the character she is commonly a mob resource character  easy to dispatch default mobs. And shadow incentivizes that by boosting her aoe  what else is it supposed to be? The only problem is that this little buff does nothing. And as you can see people only really use it by killings stacks for bonus boss DPS.  So then why have this short time period exist in the first place other than to incentivize  it's use in day to day fights.  However most fights don't really need that bonus damage as it would only cut the fight down by like 1 seconds  which is why this would be better as a gradual gain since it would help more in the day to day 

[Prinha]

15 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Well just in the nature of the character she is commonly a mob resource character  easy to dispatch default mobs. And shadow incentivizes that by boosting her aoe  what else is it supposed to be?

Judging from this post, I would assume that Shadow Abigail (shAbi) is supposed to be her damage form and Gestalt Abigail (gAbi) is supposed to be her survivability form. 
All of Abigails damage (unless turned into a Gestalt) is AoE so any buff to her damage will automatically buff her AoE damage. That does not mean that it's intended to be used for everyday mobs that she annihilates without trouble anyway.

Another possible explanation would be that the Shabi skill is a reference of the old pre refresh Wendy where you had to murder something with Abigail's flower on the ground to spawn her in the first place. As it was intended for damage it ended up being a temporal buff rather than a permanent one to keep with the high damage/high maintenance versus lower damage/ lower maintenance theme. 

In the end the "why" we ended up with the skill that we have and guessing at developer's intentions is moot though. I agree in that the skill should be less tedious to use. It's the "ultimate" of the shadow affinity, I want to be able to use that without farming large quantities of whatever every single time. 

[DVGMedia]

4 hours ago, Prinha said:

Judging from this post, I would assume that Shadow Abigail (shAbi) is supposed to be her damage form and Gestalt Abigail (gAbi) is supposed to be her survivability form. 
All of Abigails damage (unless turned into a Gestalt) is AoE so any buff to her damage will automatically buff her AoE damage. That does not mean that it's intended to be used for everyday mobs that she annihilates without trouble anyway.

Another possible explanation would be that the Shabi skill is a reference of the old pre refresh Wendy where you had to murder something with Abigail's flower on the ground to spawn her in the first place. As it was intended for damage it ended up being a temporal buff rather than a permanent one to keep with the high damage/high maintenance versus lower damage/ lower maintenance theme. 

In the end the "why" we ended up with the skill that we have and guessing at developer's intentions is moot though. I agree in that the skill should be less tedious to use. It's the "ultimate" of the shadow affinity, I want to be able to use that without farming large quantities of whatever every single time. 

But wouldn't it be better to be rewarded for doing the things the character already does? Like look at Willow her main power comes from lighting things on fire she benefits from using her powers why is it that Wendy should go and do this extra step to make her power stronger ? 

Thematics that's why. Thing is though this sacrifice thing was more so long as anything died near Abby's flower on the ground.  So it would be more fitting if with Abby's flower on the ground it counted sacrifices of creatures dying for the buff  instead of just the murder action  this would also prevent Wendy from controlling Abby  and I guess kill count would be individually flower Based  since can remake Abby's flower for the skins. 

[YouKnowWho142]

24 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

But wouldn't it be better to be rewarded for doing the things the character already does? Like look at Willow her main power comes from lighting things on fire she benefits from using her powers why is it that Wendy should go and do this extra step to make her power stronger ? 

You say that like willow wasn’t forced to get an extra step by having to collect embers before fights, which is tedious in itself, arguably more tedious than anything Wendy has to do now especially due to reliance on bee biome or bee box setups

Fire was also never something willow utilized in combat prior to her skill tree, unless you really hated mob loot. There’s nothing wrong with having to work towards power, and I don’t think most people disagree that shadow Abi needs a duration extension, but to consider shadow Abi to be too much work for too little when she can deal hundreds of extra damage especially to hordes is disingenuous 

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

You say that like willow wasn’t forced to get an extra step by having to collect embers before fights, which is tedious in itself, arguably more tedious than anything Wendy has to do now especially due to reliance on bee biome or bee box setups

Fire was also never something willow utilized in combat prior to her skill tree, unless you really hated mob loot. There’s nothing wrong with having to work towards power, and I don’t think most people disagree that shadow Abi needs a duration extension, but to consider shadow Abi to be too much work for too little when she can deal hundreds of extra damage especially to hordes is disingenuous 

But that's the thing that is what Abby did willow tree made her be able to use fire more effectively and fire stunning was always really strong. And the fact her build allows her to easily farm for her power there's a good positive feedback loop there willow can light something on fire and basically get the resources she used in that fight back

Wendy however is actively a negative loop since  you  don't get your resources back from fights this means a Wendy is  punished for using her special power for anything. Meaning she will only use it for very specific things.  Going against the concept of being able to use the skill freely wouldn't it be better if can use the skill freely? Maybe change it to be where can  the player can charge the skill with kills so that way it follows  standard gameplay of the character and then doing a murder activates it based on however long the skill was charged for then the player can turn it off to reserve the charge?  

 

Like I don't mind farming for an item to gain a benefit but there really is no reason to use shadow ATM because there is not much that benefits it.  I want to be able to use it on regular creatures and just doing a Wendy's job gain benefits for it that's the whole design aspect of characters. 

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

Like I don't mind farming for an item to gain a benefit but there really is no reason to use shadow ATM because there is not much that benefits it.  I want to be able to use it on regular creatures and just doing a Wendy's job gain benefits for it that's the whole design aspect of characters. 

It obviously doesn’t seem to be intended that way, and you don’t need that many sacrifices if you did want to. If you want to use shadow frequently that seems more like it’s on you, base Abigail already overkills most mobs 

Getting character specific resources back from a fight isn’t the standard either, it’s the exception 

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

It obviously doesn’t seem to be intended that way, and you don’t need that many sacrifices if you did want to. If you want to use shadow frequently that seems more like it’s on you, base Abigail already overkills most mobs 

Getting character specific resources back from a fight isn’t the standard either, it’s the exception 

No? The characters that have a resource  used in fights due to their skill tree gain that resources back by playing correctly wigfrid charge spear and armor regains durability if playing wigfrid  Wortox also gets back  his souls for farming and collecting.  And his limit is much larger  and it's just doing the same as Abby killing the mobs vs Wendy needing to capture mobs 

And well like said willow already does that with fire.

those that don't have that at least have their collection of resources mitigated Walter with more rounds and more storage with grip and bag Winona with alternative  and better fuel sources these types are better in line with the morning glory route however the cost of that is in a completely different task than what a player uses Abby for. And also eats into the standard usage of glories. While also needing to spend the time needing to craft every butterfly. Instead of you know just doing Wendy's job? this ability should be tied to Wendy's gameplay loop.  And not other tasks separate from it

[Prinha]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

No? The characters that have a resource  used in fights due to their skill tree gain that resources back by playing correctly wigfrid charge spear and armor regains durability if playing wigfrid

There is no "correct" way to play the game. This isn't chess with correct and incorrect moves. It's also not WoW with DPS meters and correct builds. Nor do we have to know the developer's intended use of a character and then limit our own creativity by that knowledge. However somebody plays is valid.

And what do you mean by "Wendy's gameplay loop"? 

[DVGMedia]

You can play the game however you want but inherently characters do fall within a certain gameplay loop in the way that they operate you're not going to be going in farming hundreds of spiders as Wilson just using a spear. Characters tend to have incentives to do different tasks within the game some more than others and they can kind of mix and match them sometimes based on the tools the character has. Maxwell is probably the one that has the most tools since he's able to summon resource minions as well as combat minions so a Maxwell's game play might be closer to farming or maybe more about aggression and collecting Shadow equipment to do the most damage. Even if the player doesn't do that there still is an established gameplay loop that a character does

Heck people would get mad at me for using beefalo as wigfrid because its not as efficient as just using her other tools.  But i like doing that and her skills incentivize that type of playstyle. 
The gameplay loop is what is a characters skills incentivizing them to do?  Some characters excel incombat others are resources and some are better at exploration or survivabilty.

 

[Prinha]

9 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

You can play the game however you want but inherently characters do fall within a certain gameplay loop in the way that they operate you're not going to be going in farming hundreds of spiders as Wilson just using a spear.

Alright, I asked google about the term "gameplay loop". Apparently this term originates in game design and refers to any activities within a game that a player repeats. It's a technical term that refers to programing loops that make up little independant subsystems within a game players interact with.

Let me ensure you that I don't farm hundreds of spiders with any of my characters not even Webber. If I need that much spider loot I'll set up a bunny/spider farm. Anything else requires my repeated attention that I prefer to invest in other things.

The only thing that I do repeatedly with Wendy but not with other characters is pipspook quests. There is no other Wendy specific gameplay loop.

Wendy is a strong early game combat character. Her Fuelweaver rush for example is quite potent.
 

9 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Characters tend to have incentives to do different tasks within the game some more than others and they can kind of mix and match them sometimes based on the tools the character has

Maybe in multiplayer? I switch to the characters for their perks (aestaethics, quotes and playstyle), I don't suddenly start farming extra ressources because I happen to be on a character that does it well. Want to build a lot of stuff? Winona. Want to do Misery Toad? Wolfgang. Want to clear the ruins? WX. Want to make some giant crops? Wormwood. Cook bundles for the entire year? Warly.

Are you claiming that using a crockpot is Warly's gameplay loop? And that he regains ressources for doing so?

[DVGMedia]

18 hours ago, Prinha said:

Alright, I asked google about the term "gameplay loop". Apparently this term originates in game design and refers to any activities within a game that a player repeats. It's a technical term that refers to programing loops that make up little independant subsystems within a game players interact with.

Let me ensure you that I don't farm hundreds of spiders with any of my characters not even Webber. If I need that much spider loot I'll set up a bunny/spider farm. Anything else requires my repeated attention that I prefer to invest in other things.

 

thing is that is part of her gameplay loop now if you go into shadow. The need to farm and collect resources for nets to be able to use her abilities.  it does fall into that does it not?

[Prinha]

11 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

thing is that is part of her gameplay loop now if you go into shadow. The need to farm and collect resources for nets to be able to use her abilities.  it does fall into that does it not?

You mean that Wendy needs more bugnets than other characters?
I don't think so necessarily though I can see an argument for it being made. Like it's either mourning glories or bugnets.
Since it's not necessary to continously farm bugnets becasue Abi can afk farm butterfly wings which can be crafted into live butterflies.

But really my point is that one bunny/spider farm drops so much silk while needing no maintenance whatsoever that going around killing spiders manually is something I won't do with any character not even Wendy who's really good at it. Therefore repeatedly having Abigail kill large amounts of spiders is NOT "Wendy's core game loop". Core game loops in this game look more like collect ingredients -> process ingredients -> eat food and are not really character specific.

Again I'm all for changing this skill in a way that makes it less tedious to have Abi's shadowform active for a decent amount of time. Not because of some supposed gameplay loop or whatnot but mostly because it's tedious and unfun to maintain. 

[DVGMedia]

25 minutes ago, Prinha said:

You mean that Wendy needs more bugnets than other characters?
I don't think so necessarily though I can see an argument for it being made. Like it's either mourning glories or bugnets.
Since it's not necessary to continously farm bugnets becasue Abi can afk farm butterfly wings which can be crafted into live butterflies.

But really my point is that one bunny/spider farm drops so much silk while needing no maintenance whatsoever that going around killing spiders manually is something I won't do with any character not even Wendy who's really good at it. Therefore repeatedly having Abigail kill large amounts of spiders is NOT "Wendy's core game loop".

 It  is more of a personal thing yeah I as a Wendy do like to farm smaller creatures to some that's not fun. But I always am farming spiders and bees and the shadow form does enforce that with the gather methods.  Butterfly  farming may be passive in big groups but I find just sitting at base not fun. So I prefer active farming. So to me The butterfly revive is actually a waste because I already have the other mentioned farm sources. She is incentivize to despite it not being required nothing is required of a character but there are things a character does better than others And I follow that with Wendy even if you don't.

I know others don't usually need that mass farming but if it's the niche the character fills in going to fill it.