Wendy actually a bad glass cannon in boss combat and how to fix this

[Bumber64]

10 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Even if you have low HP thanks to the mechanics in this game the player can be a tank. Both Wanda and Maxwell can achieve higher  tank than Abby can  do in turn that makes Abby glass 

It's deceptive to lump the minions' health in with the player to begin with.

You're now neglecting that Maxwell's duelists are glass cannons, ergo Maxwell and duelists are even more glassy than Wendy and Abi.

[Lardee]

There's a difference between glass cannon on paper and in practice.

On paper, it might seem like Maxwell or Old Wanda are more squishy than Abigail, but anyone who's tried out all three knows Abigail is way harder to keep alive than the other two if you're fighting anything stronger than day to day mobs.

[DVGMedia]

4 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's deceptive to lump the minions' health in with the player to begin with.

You're now neglecting that Maxwell's duelists are glass cannons, ergo Maxwell and duelists are even more glassy than Wendy and Abi.

 

7 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

 

You don't want to get into a weird trivia battle with me. Thing about that though is that Maxwells summons are disposable that being their whole point while Abby isnt

[Bumber64]

16 minutes ago, Lardee said:

There's a difference between glass cannon on paper and in practice.

On paper, it might seem like Maxwell or Old Wanda are more squishy than Abigail, but anyone who's tried out all three knows Abigail is way harder to keep alive than the other two if you're fighting anything stronger than day to day mobs.

It's all irrelevant because Maxwell and Wendy are summoners.

It doesn't matter that Abi is weaker than a player character because she can be resummoned. Compare her to the duelists instead. Clearly a duelist is weaker, which reveals there was no intention to make an apples to apples comparison.

10 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing about that though is that Maxwells summons are disposable that being their whole point while Abby isnt

She can be resummoned all the same. If comparing to duelists is unsuitable, then comparing to players is right out.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Bumber64 said:

It's all irrelevant because Maxwell and Wendy are summoners.

It doesn't matter that Abi is weaker than a player character because she can be resummoned. Compare her to the duelists instead. Clearly a duelist is weaker, which reveals there was no intention to make an apples to apples comparison.

Abigail isn't a glass cannon. The glass cannon is Wendy w/ Abigail summoned.

 

She can be resummoned at 1HP at which point she immediately dies meaning she cannot be effectively resummoned.  Whereas duelists are summoned at full strength.

[DVGMedia]

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's all irrelevant because Maxwell and Wendy are summoners.

It doesn't matter that Abi is weaker than a player character because she can be resummoned. Compare her to the duelists instead. Clearly a duelist is weaker, which reveals there was no intention to make an apples to apples comparison.

She can be resummoned. Players can't.

Alrighty so let's talk mechanics! Duelists can tank a minimum of 75 damage  and a maximum of 40k  from single attacks  and they don't deal with multi well

Abby can tank an infinite ammount thanks to her shield but she first needs to  take damage to activate it

Where with single attacks Abby at best can tank 1200 plus her Regen in the attack time  that's both of these two mobs tank ability without intervention. Plus Abby if died she is permanently weaker in continued combat without intervention where duelists keep their max and minimum 

And against some bosses they are more tanky than base Abby and only slightly less tanky with sisturn Abby   so as I said before Abby is a tank against groups and weak against big bosses

While duelists are weak to mobs but more tanky to bosses  so by my logic duelists are glass to groups but tanky to bosses 

[Bumber64]

16 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Abigail isn't a glass cannon. The glass cannon is Wendy w/ Abigail summoned.

No, because Wendy doesn't die. Abi is glass, Wendy is a conditional cannon, but they don't sum to a glass cannon.

Imagine a powerup that doubles your damage until you're hit. Every character in the game is not suddenly a glass cannon playstyle. It's clearly a powerup. You don't die, you just need to grab another one.

Now remember void cowl exists.

16 minutes ago, Lardee said:

She can be resummoned at 1HP at which point she immediately dies meaning she cannot be effectively resummoned.  Whereas duelists are summoned at full strength.

Resummon, cure-all, unsummon (BS III nullified), 7 seconds, resummon, ghastly experience. Then you're good for longer than a duelist.

[DVGMedia]

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Imagine a powerup that doubles your damage until you're hit. Every character in the game is not suddenly a glass cannon playstyle. It's clearly a powerup. You don't die, you just need to grab another one.

Isn't that what most glass cannons use for their incentive to not take damage? And usually they have a method to avoid taking damage?

[Bumber64]

3 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Isn't that what most glass cannons use for their incentive to not take damage? And usually they have a method to avoid taking damage?

No, they die instead of losing attack. Usually they're mages with low HP/defense in games. The method is usually range, or other method of not being hit.

[DVGMedia]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

No, they die instead of losing attack. Usually they're mages with low HP/defense in games. The method is usually range, or other method of not being hit.

Yeah ones that usually follow the standard aspects of a glass cannon but Abby and Wendy are different 

[Bumber64]

2 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Yeah ones that usually follow the standard aspects of a glass cannon but Abby and Wendy are different 

Because you're conflating an existing term with something else.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Bumber64 said:

Because you're conflating an existing term with something else.

I would consider old Maxwell as a glass cannon new Maxwell is not a glass cannon 

[Bumber64]

13 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I would consider old Maxwell as a glass cannon new Maxwell is not a glass cannon 

Cool. Wendy's never been one, nor Webber.

Wormwood, maybe, but old armor blocked all damage, IIRC. (Also no cannon.)

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Bumber64 said:

Cool. Wendy's never been one, nor Webber.

Wormwood, maybe, but old armor blocked all damage, IIRC.

She only is now against bosses previously she was not 

[Bumber64]

3 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

She only is now against bosses previously she was not 

She was better against bosses before? Just because there were fewer of them, or what?

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

She was better against bosses before? Just because there were fewer of them, or what?

Well just Abby was more of a summon where drop flower and kill a thing to bring her back to full  and now the incentive to fight with Abby to keep her alive b4 she had no incentive 

[Lardee]

27 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

No, because Wendy doesn't die. Abi is glass, Wendy is a conditional cannon, but they don't sum to a glass cannon.

Imagine a powerup that doubles your damage until you're hit. Every character in the game is not suddenly a glass cannon playstyle. It's clearly a powerup. You don't die, you just need to grab another one.

Now remember void cowl exists.

It's Wendy + Abigail that's the glass cannon, Wendy w/o Abigail is a peashooter. The character state Wendy + Abigail has the properties of a glass cannon (relatively speaking).

No, the void cowl that regains your max damage status 2 seconds after getting hit is not comparable to losing that status for the duration of the fight.

 

27 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Resummon, cure-all, unsummon (BS III nullified), 7 seconds, resummon, ghastly experience. Then you're good for longer than a duelist.

Yeah with unlimited resources and a bunch of time wasted, Abigail can be used as much as duelists, but by that logic life giving amulets, second chance watches, or any method of revive makes no one a glass cannon.

Duelists are meant to be spammable and expendable which is why you have limited control over them and they only cost 1/5th of a nightmare fuel.

[Steorra]

7 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

that has been the claim, but Abigail is inherently tankier than other characters (More hp than maxwell with a football helmet, and way more hp than Wanda with most armor) who are much closer to glass cannons, and has much better healing potential to boot

Abby got more damage when Sisturn III is unavailable. 600 hp without player tag is "tankier" than Maxwell is a simple lie.

[Cassielu]

I use the term "glass cannon" to refer to Wendy's boss battles that "require much higher input requirements to maintain rewards and avoid penalties, and have a lower fault tolerance rate per attempt," which is the usual glass cannon gameplay experience. Perhaps the use of the word for this purpose is debatable in a literal sense, but I don't think it affects the logical smoothness of the context.

She's a bad glass cannon because, of course, to make her work, you need a lot more input than the other characters, and the return is not equal.

And I don't mean to negate what experienced players can achieve with their excellent Abigail management skills, but the game doesn't reward that experience, and these players can simply choose another character to get more, or just play girl wes to do it much relaxed -- unless they can do it but are stuck with spiders and hounds, which is obviously impossible. This makes this act more of an "extra challenge" and less worthwhile for most players looking for a reward.

In the earlier time of beta, Wendy briefly had higher physical damage than Wolfgang to make this input requirement worther, and despite the fact that it required more time to domesticate beefalo, collect butterflies, and not have any planar damage, it caused a huge backlash.

Based on that, I guessed that the community and developers might not like the idea of making the reward higher, so I turned here to the idea of making the input requirements easier, namely tank / easier dodging. Maybe klei can find another way to make it work, that's also great, but I doubt on it.

[Gashzer]

Wendy is not a glass cannon, and even if abigail dies, the extra damage that both abigail and vex-boosted Wendy do compensates for Wendy's 0.75x damage after Abigail dies.

With the current skilltree you can boost Abigails boss resist with blessed sisturn 3. Abigail tanks (use some skilled "escape" dodges to make abigail last longer) then dies. Then use spectral cure all and ghastly potion to revive her, skipping the reduced healing and loss of abigails max hp. Stick on nightshade nostrum. 

Its like all these Wendy mains have never played Wendy before...

Wendy's skilltree has made obtaining and using potions 1000x easier, that's all Wendy really needed tbh. Ghastly potion does a great job of covering for abigails downside of losing max hp after dying which is only really an issue during a boss fight.

Dont understand all the complaining...

 

[SilverSpoon]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Abigail tanks

Due to the 01/23/25 update, Blessed sisturn 3 Abigail can no longer tank.

Quote

When the Sisturn is filled with Lune Tree Blossoms, while Abigail is summoned, elixirs heal at half rate.

Quote

Its like all these Wendy mains have never played Wendy before...

Ummmmmｍ, I don't think so...

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Wendy is not a glass cannon, and even if abigail dies, the extra damage that both abigail and vex-boosted Wendy do compensates for Wendy's 0.75x damage after Abigail dies.

With the current skilltree you can boost Abigails boss resist with blessed sisturn 3. Abigail tanks (use some skilled "escape" dodges to make abigail last longer) then dies. Then use spectral cure all and ghastly potion to revive her, skipping the reduced healing and loss of abigails max hp. Stick on nightshade nostrum. 

Its like all these Wendy mains have never played Wendy before...

Wendy's skilltree has made obtaining and using potions 1000x easier, that's all Wendy really needed tbh. Ghastly potion does a great job of covering for abigails downside of losing max hp after dying which is only really an issue during a boss fight.

Dont understand all the complaining...

 

these words have never been more true

[Gashzer]

8 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Due to the 01/23/25 update, Blessed sisturn 3 Abigail can no longer tank.

Ummmmmｍ, I don't think so...

Blessed sisturn 3 Abigail can tank 7 full hits from a deerclops without dying, 8th hit kills her. That's quite abit of tanking.

After the 7th hit you can unsummon abigail for 30sec and reheal her at full healing rate then resummon her.

Blessed sisturn 3 abigail with nightshade nostrum can do 1120 damage excluding Wendy damage to deerclops before needing unsummoned to heal. This is 1/4 of deerclops hp plus boosting Wendy's damage for 28 secs. This is more than enough to increase wendys dps beyond wilsons even if abigail dies before the fight is over.

Tell me again how Wendy is this failed glass cannon? Abigail is pretty dam tanky now and it only takes a ghastly potion and 30 secs with spectral cure all to get abigail back to full hp.

[YouKnowWho142]

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Blessed sisturn 3 Abigail can tank 7 full hits from a deerclops without dying, 8th hit kills her. That's quite abit of tanking.

After the 7th hit you can unsummon abigail for 30sec and reheal her at full healing rate then resummon her.

Blessed sisturn 3 abigail with nightshade nostrum can do 1120 damage excluding Wendy damage to deerclops before needing unsummoned to heal. This is 1/4 of deerclops hp plus boosting Wendy's damage for 28 secs. This is more than enough to increase wendys dps beyond wilsons even if abigail dies before the fight is over.

I think most people who complain about blessed sisturn 3 have never really given it a fair shot. It makes a huge difference in Abigail's uptime, allowing her to stay alive much longer and also prevent getting bursted down. When she's low you can unsummon her, use cure all, and resummon, which brings her back into the fight in her tanky state in roughly 15-20 seconds. The uptime provided by blessed sisturn 3 has been massive for a lot of fights for me (I only had to unsummon her 2-3 times during the cc fight), and if you're using cure all while she's still summoned you're losing a lot of dps anyways since chances are you just cancelled out nightshade, and using cure all on a summoned Abigail is still very susceptible to burst damage which puts her at risk of dying while still healing (so unsummoning her to heal her would be better anyways). Also, it doesn't reduce Abi's natural healing, so the idea that Abi is worse against normal mobs is only relevant if you're using cure all against basic mobs, which is really questionable and usually overkill

Trust me, I was not a fan of it initially either, but after proper testing i keep the lune blossoms even when I'm not fighting bosses now since the healing penalty it makes basically zero difference and the player tag is really helpful in boss fights. The only boss that blessed sisturn will actively work against you is crab king since you need Abi to be summoned as long as possible and none of Crab King's attacks are actually considered giant attacks (probably an oversight), but it will be helpful against most everything else

[Yaorin yon]

26 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Blessed sisturn 3 Abigail can tank 7 full hits from a deerclops without dying, 8th hit kills her. That's quite abit of tanking.

After the 7th hit you can unsummon abigail for 30sec and reheal her at full healing rate then resummon her.

Blessed sisturn 3 abigail with nightshade nostrum can do 1120 damage excluding Wendy damage to deerclops before needing unsummoned to heal. This is 1/4 of deerclops hp plus boosting Wendy's damage for 28 secs. This is more than enough to increase wendys dps beyond wilsons even if abigail dies before the fight is over.

Tell me again how Wendy is this failed glass cannon? Abigail is pretty dam tanky now and it only takes a ghastly potion and 30 secs with spectral cure all to get abigail back to full hp.

Are you saying that an enemy that Bernie can easily kill requires you to die many times with Abigail to defeat, while Willow just needs to stand by and not even bother to use fire magic?