Wendy actually a bad glass cannon in boss combat and how to fix this

[Cassielu]

A Bad Glass Cannon

• Wolfgang: have higher damage from might
• Wendy: have higher damage from abigail and vex
• Wanda: have higher damage from weapon by age

For Wolfgang now, he has is no worry about keep strength on combat. For Wanda, she has complete control over her position. But for Wendy, in order to avoid becom a girl Wes, the player must keep Abigail alive during the combat. It's kind of like a version of Wolfgang during his rework, when he would lose mightness by taking damage, but in here's Abigail's hp.

In theory, Wendy's combat gameplay logic is clearly should be "Players make sure Abigail stays alive and benefits from it." However, the game doesn't offer enough effective features and potential strategy to encourage players to do so, the only things that come close to it are (Vigor Mortis) Dodge Strategy and Spam Spectral Cure-All Tank Strategy.

Compared to Wolfgang keep his Might or Wanda keep her Age, player's attempts allowed to trying keep Abigail's HP can only be made to a fairly limited extent. And both of strategy gradually lose their effectiveness as more ACT combat content is added to the game.

Even the most skilled Wendy players will pick up Abigail and play as girl Wes when faced with about 50% of the boss, not to mention those non-top Wendy's players, using Abigail is really not an attractive option - the additional operational/skill or resource requirement to keep Abigail are simply too high compared to the additional benefit you get from it. And the time spent on dodge earlier or using potions makes it even less worthwhile.

Which starts to kind of enter the category of what we usually call "bad disadvantaged design" -- it doesn't encourage any particular strategy, it's just generic strategy and bad on it.

In all combat character, Wolfgang, Wanda, Wigfrid, Walter, Willow and Wurt are able to complete the any combat "as themselves" and are better than the generic strategy. Only Wendy that really made "not be herself, but a girl wes" truly a more valuable option in nearly half of the combats.

How does the current Skilltree deal with it

Long story short, basically zero.

Three skill: Lunar Sisterhood III (Gestalt Abby),  Team Spirit I ("Escape") and Team Spirit II ("Attack At")

TS is not enough too make "Players make sure Abigail stays alive and benefits from it." work. It does help a lot on it, I've seen players do a lot of things with it.  But... A "dodge" that need to open a roulette wheel selection command and stop moving stand still to use, seriously?

A other funny little fact about the Team Spirit is that "Attack At" is a better escape than "Escape" a lot of the combat because the former can make Abigail as far away as possible to avoid attack, while the latter just call back her to players position which the player has the enemy's aggro and stand still whisper to the flower almost unable to avoid the attack.

TS seem not designed for that fix her problem, but simply to serve the classic noob Wendy player that troubled by spiders and hounds as other whole skilltree. (otherwise, why would TS3 is more useless on this?)

Lunar Sisterhood III (Gestalt Abby) goes straight in the other direction, and instead of trying to make this kind of gameplay more feasible, it tries to kill it outright by creating an Abigail you don't have to care too much about.

This is surely a paradox: If it really worked, it would remove Wendy's uniqueness and turn her into a alter version of Wigfrid. if it doesn't really work this skill will be worthless. 

My Suggestions to fix this

There are quite people want Abigail to be more tank, player tag, planar entity, damage reduction, etc. Although I'm not a fan of this solution (too close to Bernie), I have to say that it is an improvement over the status quo. If better options (like the ones I've described below) don't work, it's best to consider options that make her tank.

I hope the skill tree can provide some better "methods" than her basekit that players can use to help Abigail dodge attacks. You'll still need to do specific dodging, but of course, it'll be easier than without skill, for making this kind of gameplay more feasible in battles where dodging is increasingly rigorous -- that's what skill is all about.

 

Let me introduce my "Business Ghost" skills.

These skills add new behavior modes that work in the same way as Abigail's two current behavior modes, “Rile Up mode” and “Soothe mode”, affect where Abigail tries to move herself, and you can't use them all together, they can only enable one at a time.  Similarly, as long as you choose one of these behavior patterns, Abigail will stay in that behavior pattern until you decide to change it, different from the TS "immediate release" command.

(This is one of the key Wendy mechanics that the current skilltree misses)

There are two levels, each providing a new behavior, Business Ghost I provides "follow closer mode" and Business Ghost II provides "Mirror mode".

• "follow closer mode" similar to "soothe mode", but Abigail will closer, as soon as she crosses 1 distance (1/4 tile), she will start moving towards Wendy.
• "mirror mode" would have Abigail trying to keep herself in a position where she was centered on the exact mirror image of Wendy. centered on the enemy

Spoiler

mirror like this:

It will make Abigail Flower's UI look like this:

 

Edit for more:

On 2/27/2025 at 2:04 PM, Cassielu said:

I use the term "glass cannon" to refer to Wendy's boss battles that "require much higher input requirements to maintain rewards and avoid penalties, and have a lower fault tolerance rate per attempt," which is the usual glass cannon gameplay experience. Perhaps the use of the word for this purpose is debatable in a literal sense, but I don't think it affects the logical smoothness of the context.

She's a bad glass cannon because, of course, to make her work, you need a lot more input than the other characters, and the return is not equal.

And I don't mean to negate what experienced players can achieve with their excellent Abigail management skills, but the game doesn't reward that experience, and these players can simply choose another character to get more, or just play girl wes to do it much relaxed -- unless they can do it but are stuck with spiders and hounds, which is obviously impossible. This makes this act more of an "extra challenge" and less worthwhile for most players looking for a reward.

In the earlier time of beta, Wendy briefly had higher physical damage than Wolfgang to make this input requirement worther, and despite the fact that it required more time to domesticate beefalo, collect butterflies, and not have any planar damage, it caused a huge backlash.

Based on that, I guessed that the community and developers might not like the idea of making the reward higher, so I turned here to the idea of making the input requirements easier, namely tank / easier dodging. Maybe klei can find another way to make it work, that's also great, but I doubt on it.

19 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

After more full experience with Team Spirit, I think my "Business Ghost" proposal is a bad idea, not better than Team Spirit.

Still, I stand by the fact that the "broken glass cannon" is real problem that needs to be solved, Business Ghost  just doesn't solve it well: Wendy requires far more input in a boss fight than any other combat character, but there are no corresponding rewards to encourage her to do so. And Gestalt Abigail just remove Wendy's identity, both her advantages and disadvantages disappear, into a small Wolfgang with independent mightness bar.

At the same time, this requirement for input goes against DST new act style boss combat design, where the new bosses like Armored Bearger, Scrappy Werepig and Frostjaw require that you use all the maneuverability and reaction time you have at the current stage to dodge. Otherwise you'll take a more hit  punishment than old bosses. In this case, managing the Abby's position is conflict with enjoying the fun of dodge.

 

[YouKnowWho142]

The reason why Wendy's damage is lower than other combat characters is because it's aoe. Why does her dps need to be competitive with the hardest hitters? It's okay to accept that Wendy is just naturally weaker in some situations than others, she can handle a lot of bosses quite well if Wendy is also involved, and the last thing we need is more commands tbh

[Lardee]

 

4 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Even the most skilled Wendy players will pick up Abigail and play as girl Wes when faced with about 50% of the boss, not to mention those non-top Wendy's players, using Abigail is really not an attractive option - the additional operational/skill or resource requirement to keep Abigail are simply too high compared to the additional benefit you get from it. And the time spent on dodge earlier or using potions makes it even less worthwhile.

To my knowledge, the only boss that Abigail is not viable against is Celestial Champion Phase III. And that's Wendy pre-skill tree.

 

 

[Cassielu]

10 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

The reason why Wendy's damage is lower than other combat characters is because it's aoe. Why does her dps need to be competitive with the hardest hitters? It's okay to accept that Wendy is just naturally weaker in some situations than others, she can handle a lot of bosses quite well if Wendy is also involved, and the last thing we need is more commands tbh

Maybe you can read the topic carefully first.

[Bumber64]

She's a bad glass cannon because there isn't any glass. Maybe if Abi's death caused Wendy's own she'd qualify.

As it stands, Wendy can just revive Abi mid-fight, or finish off an injured boss at 0.75x.

[Debruh]

On 2/24/2025 at 9:18 PM, Cassielu said:

other funny little fact about the Team Spirit is that "Attack At" is a better escape than "Escape" a lot of the combat because the former can make Abigail as far away as possible to avoid attack, while the latter just call back her to players position which the player has the enemy's aggro and stand still whisper to the flower almost unable to avoid the attack.

??? No. Escape turns Abby invulnerable. As well as being faster than attack at. Attack at is for positioning, while escape is more of a dodge command

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

Maybe you can read the topic carefully first.

Odd that you deleted your previous comment that included damage numbers and promptly edited your topic, it comes off as you wanting to make others think that I was incorrectly reading the topic

And you still do not address how Wendy is a glass cannon. Wendy herself has average defensive stats, and Abigail's commands are effective when applied correctly. As unpopular as it is, Blessed Sisturn 3 does make a difference in letting her take a lot more damage, and if she gets too low from repeated errors you can recall her and quickly heal her as the heal rate penalty is gone when she's unsummoned or, even simpler, let her die, heal her, and use ghastly experience, which brings her back into the fight within 30 seconds. She also has her previous tools to help with survivability, namely spectral cure all. She seems to have plenty of ways to survive better as long as Wendy is taking aggro and being proactive with elixirs, and i've both seen and performed it in practice. Abigail is not designed or supposed to survive forever in a fight, and gets worn down the same way Wendy does.

[Debruh]

Just now, Bumber64 said:

She's a bad glass cannon because there isn't any glass. Maybe if Abi's death caused Wendy's own she'd qualify.

As it stands, Wendy can just revive Abi mid-fight, or finish off an injured boss at 0.75x.

Yea. I have no idea where the glass cannon idea came from.

Honestly, in DS, glass cannons never work. Unless it harms armor's effectiveness, which considering that now armor's protection is shown in the scrapbook, players would actually know how much armor protects you from without a wiki, and a character that has a like -30% armor or something, could work.

[Echsrick]

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

She's a bad glass cannon because there isn't any glass. Maybe if Abi's death caused Wendy's own she'd qualify.

As it stands, Wendy can just revive Abi mid-fight, or finish off an injured boss at 0.75x.

same what i would say, cant be glass cannon without the glass, she would be if there was something like the ghost doin more damage the closer wendy is to death, that would be glass

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

The reason why Wendy's damage is lower than other combat characters is because it's aoe. Why does her dps need to be competitive with the hardest hitters?

AoE is now possessed by almost half of all of the characters, so it is no longer her uniqueness... Even the characters with the highest single target DPS have AoE.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164001-prevalence-of-aoe/

[DVGMedia]

i think the concept or wendy being a glass canon is not a bad view of her. she is just not the conventional type of glass cannon where her mistakes take her life

its more that she has to really work to keep abby alive to ensure she gets her strengths. So yeah i would consider her a glass cannon.

 

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Even the characters with the highest single target DPS have AoE.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/164001-prevalence-of-aoe/

ah yes....the dumbbel throw that cost a skill tree and is not even good at all

[DVGMedia]

3 hours ago, Echsrick said:

same what i would say, cant be glass cannon without the glass, she would be if there was something like the ghost doin more damage the closer wendy is to death, that would be glass

that would be a conventional glass cannon  but wendy does kind of fall into a glass cannon archetype  Its just the glass part is abby. Its kind of why the concept of more surviabilty for abby came to be because she is the glass of our cannon.

The definition of glass cannon originally says they have lowered defensive properties. however the sterotypical glass cannons in this game isn't really all that glassy since they both have their own defensive measures to ensure they don't take damage.  Snares traps watches and also access to some of the strongest armors in the game as well as some of the best healings.

So in reallity ya wendy is a glass cannon in the way klei has created glass cannons

[Bumber64]

9 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

So in reallity ya wendy is a glass cannon in the way klei has created glass cannons

Not even in that metric because she doesn't have reduced health beneath her armor.

Even Walter's more of a glass cannon with sub-Wilson health and a bee allergy.

[SebastianGraveS]

Just my 10 cents, almost never post here just checking out the forums lately because of the beta branch. I main Wendy and Wigfrid, mostly Wendy. I don't have trouble keeping Abigail alive. It's micro managey when I play solo, but the power the character gets from doing it successfully is very rewarding. I think Wendy is sitting in a great place currently.

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Not even in that metric because she doesn't have reduced health beneath her armor.

Even Walter's more of a glass cannon with sub-Wilson health and a bee allergy.

but that doesn't really matter the glass part is abby.

Wendy is the bernie for abby wendy is the defensive option for the glass cannon in this case.

[Bumber64]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

but that doesn't really matter the glass part is abby.

Wendy is the bernie for abby wendy is the defensive option for the glass cannon in this case.

Then Abi's the glass cannon.

[Arcwell]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Then Abi's the glass cannon.

Yes, that is the point of this thread.

[kroban]

I really don't understand where this "Wendy glass cannon" idea comes from, Wanda IS a glass cannon by definition because she gains a lot of damage at the cost of basically having "1 hp". She has iframes with the tp and can also cancel out some damage with healing clock sure, but at the end of the day shes still at 1hp. And this is something we all saw in the game, the average Wanda player is constantly dying over and over again because they are gambling their HP bar for "STRONK DAMAGE" lol.

Wendy on the other hand.....has the average 150 hp, a follower that can tank damage for her and regens hp on top of also having a BIG heal, now can also revive Abigail and put her back to max hp in a matter of seconds. Even in the case she loses Abigail, shes just "Wilson with less damage".

And im not saying that Wendy is OP or anything, im asking this honestly, how is she exactly a glass cannon? Because in any other game or story a character like this would be considered like, a "summoner" that uses her summon to tank damage, not a glass cannon, specially since she has the average HP bar. Imo her being glass cannon would be idk, "if Abigail dies she dies too", or "she receives extra damage because shes fragile", or having a really low hp bar.

[Dr. Safety]

Needing to manage a minion, or risk losing the minion and becoming a weaker version of most alternatives isn't a glass cannon. It's a summoner.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but I'd say a glass cannon summoner would be someone like Terraria summoner, where the minion doesn't take aggro. Regardless, Wendy is not a glass cannon, and a 600 health minion is not a glass cannon either.

[Peasant]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

Needing to manage a minion, or risk losing the minion and becoming a weaker version of most alternatives isn't a glass cannon. It's a summoner.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but I'd say a glass cannon summoner would be someone like Terraria summoner, where the minion doesn't take aggro. Regardless, Wendy is not a glass cannon, and a 600 health minion is not a glass cannon either.

Terra summoner's minions can't die, dst minions can. Besides most bosses can deal 600 damage with 4 blows, it's not that Abigail can equip armor or has planar entity

4 hours ago, Echsrick said:

ah yes....the dumbbel throw that cost a skill tree and is not even good at all

And don't forget Willow's fire magics, Weremoose's charge, Wigfrid's fancy electric spear, Winona's portable catapluts, Wormwood's self-active armor, Walter's aoe ammos, and Wortox's soul pierce and shadow affinity. You really are being forgetful aren't you?

Oops, sorry, forget soul decoy 3 is also aoe, the forgetfulness infects!

[kikia]

Yes，this is exactly what I want - a more flexible abby. Currently，the recovery frames during Wendy's summoning/recalling Abby and the process of opening the wheel to issue orders make coordinated combat against bosses uncomfortable.

I must emphasize this coordination isn't simply difficulty reduction as some might assume. It effectively requires simultaneous control of two characters where you cannot afford to neglect one for the other. While dodging boss attacks，you must protect Abby from taking damage，yet over-focusing on Abby may cause you to miss damage windows or even fail to react to incoming attacks. The current mechanics inadequately support this dual operation，which is why many players prefer solo combat.

While Wendy's 0.75 attack multiplier is the price for having Abby，such drawbacks should provide compensatory mechanisms rather than becoming character constraints. The design philosophy should encourage overcoming weaknesses through skillful utilization of strengths - in this case，mastering seamless coordination with Abby.

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Yes, that is the point of this thread.

But you can't play as Abi, nor Maxwell's duelists, nor Webber's spiders.

The fight continues after their death, and only the spiders can't be restored mid-fight.

[Peasant]

4 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Then Abi's the glass cannon.

Abi is the glass, Wendy is the cannon, cause it's Wendy dealing damage after all

[Bumber64]

21 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Abi is the glass, Wendy is the cannon, cause it's Wendy dealing damage after all

You can't blend them together like that. If the glass breaking doesn't kill you, then you're just losing a powerup.