Icker rounds makes walter uninteresting

[Dyzrespect]

I think no matter what way you slice it, this is just picking between which is more boring to you: holding F while kiting an icker slowed enemy for 30 seconds, or holding F while kiting a non icker slowed enemy for 60 seconds because you have to back up more. There really is not much difference (when you're alone), Icker pretty much just increases your dps window, the enemy was never going to catch you either way, it's just now you can maybe use void grip over royal jelly grip.

3 hours ago, Nini voovoo said:

i think having a ranged option that is decently lower dps but a lot safer

I wonder why nobody played Walter the past 5 years with his 'ranged option that was decently lower dps but a lot safer'...?

[Chewabacca]

22 minutes ago, viblym said:

Hey no offense, but you don't have to use them.

While that is technically true, that doesn’t make it good for icker rounds to be able to slow the enemy down so absurdly much when stacked with other slows, especially when Walter has an extremely fast mount and ranged combat becomes more fun when you actually have to use that speed. The poster is pretty clearly trying to say “icker currently is so powerful and cheap that it's not fun to use”, not just “there is no fun way to play Walter”.

3 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

I think no matter what way you slice it, this is just picking between which is more boring to you: holding F while kiting an icker slowed enemy for 30 seconds, or holding F while kiting a non icker slowed enemy for 60 seconds because you have to back up more. There really is not much difference (when you're alone), Icker pretty much just increases your dps window, the enemy was never going to catch you either way, it's just now you can maybe use void grip over royal jelly grip.

I wonder why nobody played Walter the past 5 years with his 'ranged option that was decently lower dps but a lot safer'...?

I think there's a meaningful difference between fighting an enemy that's been slowed to 30% of its original movement speed where you have to keep reapplying the stack to keep the slowing effect, and being able to slow an enemy down to 5-9% of its original movement speed by stacking icker with his other slows.

[Dyzrespect]

3 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

I think there's a meaningful difference between fighting an enemy that's been slowed to 30% of its original movement speed where you have to keep reapplying the stack to keep the slowing effect, and being able to slow an enemy down to 5-9% of its original movement speed by stacking icker with his other slows.

I feel like if there was a meaningful difference you could just quantify it. I can, it's about 1.5-3x the fight length from my testing, barring Bee Queen where it's about 5x longer when you can't slow down the grumble bees. And you do have to keep reapplying the slows, even moreso if you're using different types in tandem. If you're with friends however, there is 0 difference, as by default they will be 'tanking' and you will just be holding F from afar as usual.

There are 0 gameplay changes between slowed and non slowed, it just takes longer. You are never going to be dodging melee attacks as Walter, you're just going to hit and run. Even if you were dodging and weaving in melee, then slowdown is completely pointless and also changes nothing.

Does Walter have the most simplistic approaches to most bosses in the game now? Yes. Does slowdown make those approaches even faster/easier? Yes. Would removing/lessening slowdown change any of this in the slightest? No, outside of Bee Queen.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Walrusst said:

AI mostly want more windup grips to be part of the progression because windup grips are sort of walters form of the elevated risk.

The highest reward for a windup grip like silk or void cloth is taking shots even if it means letting the enemy get close enough that you are likely to get hit, calling off engagements is huge drops in rewards where you need to do a manual charged attack and overcommit again to preserve your dps.

Having 99% of your run be done with a grip that encourages you to forgo your most interesting limitation (Royal jelly) is what bothers me the most with walter, since with his no wind up grips the core criticisms of range are exaggerated extremely. I've suggested a scale grip that competes with royal jelly for the mid game as a windup alternative to jelly and slurtle slime ammo as an elemental vulnerability round over time but, its likely too late for these.

Still, its not like walters highest DPS isn't going to be with using stuff like burst/elemental damage, since well. He has some curious tricks that let him farm positively insane amounts of burst damage if you are willing to invest in some tools to set it off. (Its just also sort of cheesy elemental damage.)

The funny thing was, when I hadn't used the non-windup grips much I had shrugged off most the criticisms of walter for a while because I found the windups interesting as a way to encourage ranged to stay risky. When I realized it was nearly always optimal until the end of the game to never use a windup grip, I got concerned. (+ Slow stacking exists as a secondary issue.)

It's multiple issues really as you mentioned the earliest you get a good windup grip is post rifts and that late into a run the benefits of a stable dps source really start to shine but even without that there's little things that make people not want to commit to the void grip. When changing ammo on the void grip you need to time your shots on a very small window right after Walter fires a shot to maintain your fire rate without dropping the firing speed it's a cool thing when you pull it off but not something everyone is going to be able to do or even willing to do in the heat of combat. The instant speed boost only works on scrappy frames meaning your options are being limited and you still might miss wasting more time. Another thing that happens at least on my end is that sometimes even when the shot connect rather than going into fast firing mode after a charge shot Walter will just hold his slingshot back without firing for some reason. Finally the grace period between shots for fast fire being really small meaning things like changing targets or small gaps will greatly drop your dps.

Don't get me wrong despite all that I do still like the windup grips but there's just too many disadvantages to using them vs what your actually getting.

[V2C]

For now, we are looking at making the shadow ones (Icky and Slow-Down) not stack with each other.
They will still stack with Sticky(Honey).
Slow-Down will stack up to 3 times with itself.

[Walrusst]

It must be something having such a show on the forums after getting back from your vacation.
Well good luck with the final prep out there!

[kroban]

The argument of "you don't have to use them" may sound memey but its true in my case. I can see why many people like icker rounds, it makes combat way safer on a character that has it pretty rough if you get hit, but personally I hate icker rounds because they feel "cheesy", like almost at Maxwell's cage level of cheese, which is why I just don't choose it.

Slow-rounds are (imo) okay because it has a low duration, needs 3 shots for the max slow and extra shots to keep it on, and in some bosses is a waste of time applying it (like Crystal Deerclops, Frostjaw, CC, or Toadstool for example). But icker rounds almost completely ruin a lot of bossfights, and icker itself isn't even that hard to get.

Ironically icker rounds made me appreciate way more the lunar side, it has pretty good damage without having something cheesy, its "cheaper cursed rounds 2.0" and a debuff for extra damage, thats it.

But who knows, maybe Klei wants people to have an easier time with him so theres more Walter players, it could be that they will nerf or remove it later and replace it with something else, or add post-rift bossfights around slows, like idk, some boss saying **** YOU to ickers and tp-ing in your face if you are too far.

[aidankocherhans]

4 hours ago, V2C said:

For now, we are looking at making the shadow ones (Icky and Slow-Down) not stack with each other.
They will still stack with Sticky(Honey).
Slow-Down will stack up to 3 times with itself.

Do slowdown rounds currently stack 4 times?

[_mylilsunshine_]

2 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Do slowdown rounds currently stack 4 times?

no it's 3

Quote

• What are the values on Walter's slows, and what's the max slow he can achieve? Honey is a 40% slow, Icker is a 70% slow and Slow-down rounds are 33.33% slows that can stack up to 3 times multiplicatively (up to about 71%), applying icker and 3 slowdown rounds will make mobs move at 8.7% (or a 92.3% slow) of their original movement speed. Further applying honey rounds turns this into a whopping 5.22% (or 94.88% slow) . In a way, he's a baby Maxwell.

 

[Crimson Hollow]

2 hours ago, kroban said:

The argument of "you don't have to use them" may sound memey but its true in my case. I can see why many people like icker rounds, it makes combat way safer on a character that has it pretty rough if you were to get hit, but personally I hate icker rounds because they feel "cheesy", which is why I just don't choose it, I think it makes Walter combat boring, like almost at the same level as Maxwell's cage.

Slow-rounds are (imo) okay because it has a low duration, needs 3 shots for the max slow and extra shots to keep it on, the target still moves at a decent pace, and in some bosses it is a waste of time applying it (like Crystal Deerclops, Frostjaw, CC, or Toadstool for example). But icker rounds almost completely ruins some bossfights, and icker itself isn't even that hard to get.

Ironically icker rounds made me appreciate way more the lunar side, it has pretty good damage without having something cheesy, its "cheaper cursed rounds 2.0" and a debuff for extra damage, thats it.

But who knows, maybe Klei wants people to have an easier time with him so theres more Walter players, it could be that they will nerf it or remove it later and replace it with something else, or add post-rift bossfights around it, like idk, some boss saying **** YOU to ickers and tp-ing in your face if you are too far.

I believe it already applies to ink blights, except for the flying one. They will just break free from the icker.

[Catuna_]

8 hours ago, V2C said:

Slow-Down will stack up to 3 times with itself.

Does it already not work that way?

[_mylilsunshine_]

3 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Does it already not work that way?

he probably meant that slow-down will still stack up to 3, and with honey but not icker anymore

icker will stack with honey, but not with slow-down anymore

[Steorra]

10 hours ago, V2C said:

For now, we are looking at making the shadow ones (Icky and Slow-Down) not stack with each other.
They will still stack with Sticky(Honey).
Slow-Down will stack up to 3 times with itself.

Thanks for clarifying! May I ask a question - would we make slowdown rounds become more cheaper (change the moonrock material into a more achievable item?) but have the slowing effect weaker slightly?

At the current stage even after the changes applied as you said, the slowdown rounds is still a better choice than icker rounds... (Especially when we considering the Lunar rounds benefits) I guess this was a bit weird?

[Catuna_]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Thanks for clarifying! May I ask a question - would we make slowdown rounds become more cheaper (change the moonrock material into a more achievable item?) but have the slowing effect weaker slightly?

At the current stage even after the changes applied as you said, the slowdown rounds is still a better choice than icker rounds... (Especially when we considering the Lunar rounds benefits) I guess this was a bit weird?

The point is that slow-down require not-so-cheap materials and require 3 rounds at once + refreshing them within every 30 seconds which makes them have a recurring cost which is fair game imo in exchange for the AoE potential

Meanwhile Icker rounds are easily mass produced and need to be refreshed on a single target less often (60s duration) which makes them much cheaper and preferable for a lot of situations, only really not being preferable for bee queen

[SilverSpoon]

I would like rather keep Icky and Slow-Down stacking, but make not have the Slow-Down effect self stack.

I think managing multiple types ammo to neutralize enemies is enough called a challenge and it's balanced after the lift, simply spamming Slow-Down to neutralize enemies feels cheesy.

[Mysterious box]

Also sticky rounds are meant to be the cheap early game variant to slowdown rounds.

[YouKnowWho142]

13 hours ago, kroban said:

The argument of "you don't have to use them" may sound memey but its true in my case. I can see why many people like icker rounds, it makes combat way safer on a character that has it pretty rough if you get hit, but personally I hate icker rounds because they feel "cheesy", like almost at Maxwell's cage level of cheese, which is why I just don't choose it.

Slow-rounds are (imo) okay because it has a low duration, needs 3 shots for the max slow and extra shots to keep it on, and in some bosses is a waste of time applying it (like Crystal Deerclops, Frostjaw, CC, or Toadstool for example). But icker rounds almost completely ruin a lot of bossfights, and icker itself isn't even that hard to get.

Ironically icker rounds made me appreciate way more the lunar side, it has pretty good damage without having something cheesy, its "cheaper cursed rounds 2.0" and a debuff for extra damage, thats it.

But who knows, maybe Klei wants people to have an easier time with him so theres more Walter players, it could be that they will nerf or remove it later and replace it with something else, or add post-rift bossfights around slows, like idk, some boss saying **** YOU to ickers and tp-ing in your face if you are too far.

to your credit, the "just dont use them" argument does actually work in this case since it's an affinity and you can choose the lunar rounds instead (which is far less cheesy). Just sucks if you want to use shadow Woby but not the ammo

[Walrusst]

21 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

to your credit, the "just dont use them" argument does actually work in this case since it's an affinity and you can choose the lunar rounds instead (which is far less cheesy). Just sucks if you want to use shadow Woby but not the ammo

I mean the dot + dreadstone combo is still a huge element of shadows damage output.
Its not like iker is gone it just isn't a 30 second lockdown.

Sure lunar does more damage in a pure honest dps race, but you still have the dodge roll.
(And like, a lot of lunar players were considering being in it only for woby and not the ammo anyhow, it being a choice whether you go all in on the affinity or focus on other things is still a valid design.)

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Walrusst said:

I mean the dot + dreadstone combo is still a huge element of shadows damage output.
Its not like iker is gone it just isn't a 30 second lockdown.

Sure lunar does more damage in a pure honest dps race, but you still have the dodge roll.
(And like, a lot of lunar players were considering being in it only for woby and not the ammo anyhow, it being a choice whether you go all in on the affinity or focus on other things is still a valid design.)

That's fair, the lunar affinity has been slightly growing on me since gaining full speed after a dash is really strong in combat even if it isnt a teleport and the lunar ammo is just a lot more convenient to get. I still generally prefer shadow affinity since the teleport has a lot of applications and I really like dot rounds for that hybrid playstyle I've been looking for (Stinger rounds should've been dot :((( ), but I have been seeing the potential for lunar affinity more and more 

The lunar rounds are noticeably less interesting than the shadow rounds though

[Walrusst]

2 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

The lunar rounds are noticeably less interesting than the shadow rounds though

Its also your only non-slow/deaggro debuff so we take what we can get.

[Steorra]

51 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

to your credit, the "just dont use them" argument does actually work in this case since it's an affinity and you can choose the lunar rounds instead (which is far less cheesy). Just sucks if you want to use shadow Woby but not the ammo

If such argument had not work for "Sisturn III made Abby become immortal" before, then same for Walter's Shadow Prison.

[Catuna_]

6 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I would like rather keep Icky and Slow-Down stacking, but make not have the Slow-Down effect self stack.

I think managing multiple types ammo to neutralize enemies is enough called a challenge and it's balanced after the lift, simply spamming Slow-Down to neutralize enemies feels cheesy.

that just removes the only cool slowing ammo he has for no real reason, I don't really support this idea...
All the slows are fine in isolation but when they're packed up together then they start being an issue because enemies become too slow to catch up to Walter .
Walter's slingshot play-style would still be to shoot and walk away from enemies when they get close, so it's important that he has a tool to deal with it when fighting a boss that's constantly in your face like Bee Queen (Phase 1-2) and Dragonfly... All you do by removing the slow-down round stacking is making it even more important to stack slows which I think is a bad thing to have to do. Slow-down rounds allow him to keep

50 minutes ago, Steorra said:

If such argument had not work for "Sisturn III made Abby become immortal" before, then same for Walter's Shadow Prison.

I'd understand wanting slow stacking gone, but I feel like if we started arguing this way then a lot of the characters would lose their charm and color.

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

If such argument had not work for "Sisturn III made Abby become immortal" before, then same for Walter's Shadow Prison.

i said the argument was different because icker rounds are tied to affinity and the other path is completely viable to use. I don't know why you're bringing Wendy into this discussion when sisturn 3 isnt remotely similar to what i said

[Well-met]

ickers are end game and out of reach to everyone who isnt capable of rushing fuelweaver on year 1.

the effectiveness is justified by how late you get them

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

that just removes the only cool slowing ammo he has for no real reason, I don't really support this idea...
All the slows are fine in isolation but when they're packed up together then they start being an issue because enemies become too slow to catch up to Walter .
Walter's slingshot play-style would still be to shoot and walk away from enemies when they get close, so it's important that he has a tool to deal with it when fighting a boss that's constantly in your face like Bee Queen (Phase 1-2) and Dragonfly... All you do by removing the slow-down round stacking is making it even more important to stack slows which I think is a bad thing to have to do. Slow-down rounds allow him to keep

Walter is a character who is in immediate danger zone with just one hit, so I agree that extreme slowing is necessary to get away from enemies like Bee Queen and Dragonfly, who are very difficult to kiting.

What I'm concerned about is that "it's too easy to slow down enemies to a neutralize level for 30 seconds with just Slow Down Rounds," and "not just bosses where slowing is essential, it works on about half of the bosses." (My topic about that)

If the current Slow Down Round 3 stack level of slowing can be achieved with "a Sticky Round + a Slow Down Round," it would only last 8 seconds, and it would be enough to call "Effort" that constantly shooting two types of bullets and choosing shots or escape while timing, so I don't have a problem with it. But I think it have a issue with the current ease + almighty.

Another problem is that if players rely too much on only Slow Down Round, it will consume a lot of the party's Purple Gems and Moon Rocks by itself. If you need to combine it with other rounds, the resources consumed will be spread out. Honey in particular is easy to produce.

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

I'd understand wanting slow stacking gone, but I feel like if we started arguing this way then a lot of the characters would lose their charm and color.

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

i said the argument was different because icker rounds are tied to affinity and the other path is completely viable to use. I don't know why you're bringing Wendy into this discussion when sisturn 3 isnt remotely similar to what i said

I'm not Steorra, but I am one who agree that. I think Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All spam and Slow Down round spam have a lot in common point.

Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All spam

• This absolves most of the effort for keeping Abigail alive.
• To do this, all you need to do is using Spectral Cure-All periodically throughout the fight.
• It works on many bosses, but there are some that it doesn't work on.
• This in itself is not a way to kill the boss, but merely exempts you from certain efforts.
• It consumes a lot of resources (though to be fair it's cheaper than slowdown rounds, so I think it's okay to reduce the duration of healing elixir under Sistern III).

Slow Down Round spam

• This absolves most of the effort for kiting.
• To do this, all you need to do is shooting Slow Down round periodically throughout the fight.
• It works on many bosses, but there are some that it doesn't work on.
• This in itself is not a way to kill the boss, but merely exempts you from certain efforts.
• It consumes a lot of resources,

Also, I'm a big believer in "just don't use it" so I think it's Okay to keep both. However if we discard one it must discard the other too by same reason, it is unfair to leave only one.