Were Wendy's Nerfs appropriate?

[SilverSpoon]

• Blessed Sisturn III Healing amount Penalty

Previously, Sistern III was nerfed with a healing penalty to prevent Abigail from being tank by Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All spam.

However, Walter can slow down many bosses to a point where they are slower than a spider by Slow-Down Round Spam. This seems to about neutralize boss for Walter. Slow-Down Rounds would slow down enemy for 30 seconds with one hit so not difficult to use. Furthermore, Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds can slow them down even further.

Confirmed Boss List
・Ancient Guardian
・Bearger(Armored Bearger)
・Dragonfly
・Klaus(It can also prevent against magical attacks.)
・Nightmare Werepig
・Shadow Knight Level 3
・Queen Bee(Thulecite Frame)

(Please note that this is just a test of how slow it will be, not a serious fight.)

About this has been discussed in the past, but people considered it a "victory by spending resources" and it was considered acceptable.

Then "Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All spam" also should be acceptable since it's "victory by spending resources" too and also it only makes Abigail hard to die. If the cost is not worth the return, then it's fine that to change the healing penalty to "reduced heal duration" and make more Spectral Cure-Alls necessary. Then it would be a win-win for both Wendy Player and those who don't want Walter to be Nerfed.

---

• Cursed Vex now deals +10 plane damage

The current estimated DPS of Cursed Vex (+Shadow Sisterhood III+Nightshade Nostrum) is as follows

- Enlightened Crown+Thulecite Club=402
- Enlightened Crown+BS Sword = 374
- Coul+Reaper = 290
- BS Helm+BS Sword = 260
- Thulecite Club = 238

For comparison, Wolfgang's estimated DPS is as follows
- Enlightened Crown+BS Sword = 381
- Coul+Reaper = 342

Spoiler

Evidence

It is true that under certain conditions, she can achieve DPS higher than Wolfgang, but this is limited to enemies that don't move around much, and has to give up head armor, and that has no ability to continue fighting because sanity drain (1/hit of Enlightened Crown,  40xn/min of Shadow Tentacle, aula of bosses) will quickly disable Enlightened Crown, so it is not very practical.

Also, even if consider she has AoE, even if you consume elixir, make sure Abigail doesn't die, kill mobs at hand every few seconds, and fight at night or limit Abigail healing, she still can't reach Wolfgang's DPS, so she seems to be overly Nerfed as a combat character.

Another problem is that while normal Vex is more effective for Wendy than other characters, Cursed Vex is a flat +10 for all characters, which is inconsistent.

Therefore, it seems that the balance would be appropriate if Cursed Vex were to deal more additional damage to Wendy's attacks.

[chimiya]

with things as such,you think wendy have chance to change?who care.

[Edible Coal]

Just now, chimiya said:

with things as such,you think wendy have chance to change?who care.

you dont need to be so negative , things can always change

[SilverSpoon]

9 minutes ago, chimiya said:

with things as such,you think wendy have chance to change?who care.

Rather if I miss this last chance to ask more improve for Wendy, I'll never get another chance!

[WilsonHiggs]

Icker rounds being totally broken doesnt justified having other stuff being unbalanced.

By you logic, anything should be nerfed because maxwell and wolfgang exists...

The game would be very poor and unfun if everything is compared to Wolfgang...variety of strength is what keeps some players still playing the game despite klei's efforts of making the game so casual so it hooks more whales starving for buying skins

[SilverSpoon]

41 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Icker rounds being totally broken doesnt justified having other stuff being unbalanced.

By you logic, anything should be nerfed because maxwell and wolfgang exists...

I did not use Icker Round for my post, only Slow-Down Round been used for verification and the subject is about that.

Icker Round add an animation of Ickers dripping from enemies.

Quote

The game would be very poor and unfun if everything is compared to Wolfgang...variety of strength is what keeps some players still playing the game despite klei's efforts of making the game so casual so it hooks more whales starving for buying skins

Winona's Enlightened Strike can already produce an extremely high DPS of "Number of Catapults x 120 Planer Damage " . With just 4 catapults, she can produce DPS that surpasses both Wolfgang and Wendy, and by simply adding more catapults, DPS will go over the sky...

If each character, especially a combat character, can produce Wolfgang-level DPS under certain conditions, I think it won't spoil variety of strength, but rather it will diversify the variety of strength than Wolfgang is the only one most strong character.

[Echsrick]

she still got more buffs in total

[Koomin]

Yes she got adjustments in the nerf direction on some skills, and the buff direction in others.  She is currently in the correct spot.

[Yaorin yon]

For example, the Armor Bear's attack power is 175 + 30, but the damage reduction only applies to the 175, not the 30. In other words, when you use this skill, your healing capability might even be worse than if you didn't use the skill at all.

[SilverSpoon]

55 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

she still got more buffs in total

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

Yes she got adjustments in the nerf direction on some skills, and the buff direction in others.  She is currently in the correct spot.

I'm sad that even though I've taken the time to gather data, verify it, and make my statement, you just say "Nuh."

[Echsrick]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I'm sad that even though I've taken the time to gather data, verify it, and make my statement, you just say "Nuh."

how dit i say "nuh"? i am sorry to tell the truth, she got more buffs in total

[Koomin]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I'm sad that even though I've taken the time to gather data, verify it, and make my statement, you just say "Nuh."

Your data that you gathered was "sometimes Wendy still does more damage than Wolfgang" with some pictures to prove it, with some random Walter tangential stuff.  There was no actual data to support your point here either.  And yes, I've already made posts going through patch notes pointing out the large amount of buffs that everyone ignores, instead fixating on the nerfs.  I can link it again if you want.

[Radicaljoe]

I think the only unfair nerf was removing the "attack here" AOE from lunar Abigail.

It seemed balanced to me that Wendy lost out on automatic aoe and instead needed to stand still, and aim Abigail. Which would then put Abigail in a ton of danger while the skills are on cooldown because lunar Abi has no ability to deal with a huge crowd suddenly targeting her.

Everything else I find pretty understandable 

[Walrusst]

I feel like demonstrating a charterer whose core is being able to mow down hordes of weak enemies easily being able to do the highest DPS in a narrow range of situations still technically counts as being pretty strong even post nerf.

Like your floor for good enough might be high if thats below where you put the floor. If the best a subset of the time and a strong second the rest of the time isn't good enough what is.

Still I would love for sisturn 3 to be a slow mourning glory generator where rotting flowers makes abigail do her new animation occasionally to top you off. Make it a very slow, but appreciated means of topping off your resource supply(That gets better as you put better flowers in the sisturn.) Simply put, every combat effects either been overpowered or just required too much wiki knowledge to use for that skill that I've given up on it being a combat skill mentally speaking.

[DVGMedia]

27 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

Still I would love for sisturn 3 to be a slow mourning glory generator where rotting flowers makes abigail do her new animation occasionally to top you off. Make it a very slow, but appreciated means of topping off your resource supply(That gets better as you put better flowers in the sisturn.) Simply put, every combat effects either been overpowered or just required too much wiki knowledge to use for that skill that I've given up on it being a combat skill mentally speaking.

The sisturn has always been a utility yeah so why its not a utility now is strange

[Soul7k]

I will always think cutting anything in half is too heavy handed of a nerf. 

She was also never able to reasonably face tank a boss. best i saw in videos posted were an eight of an armored bearger, that being said she is still fairly tanky

only issue that was actually broken was when Gestalt could solo bosses, but that quickly got fixed

That being said there is still cheese, but the interaction is weird. 1: she still heals at full value if you put her away. 2: it is actually more efficient to let her die, heal her up then use a ghastly experience to bring her all the way back to 600

[SilverSpoon]

12 hours ago, Koomin said:

And yes, I've already made posts going through patch notes pointing out the large amount of buffs that everyone ignores, instead fixating on the nerfs.  I can link it again if you want.

I acknowledge that there are many buffs, but my post is still arguing that the past nerfs were excessive, inappropriate, and make the character unbalanced.
The appropriate counterargument to this post is not "No problem because there are buffs," but "There are how buffs, so those nerf are appropriate and Wendy is balanced with other characters, so no problem"

What kind of buff actually be covering issue like "Walter can neutralize the boss if he spends the cost, but tank Abigail is not allowed even if he spends the cost" and "Wendy is a combat character, but she is not allowed unless her DPS is lower than Wolfgang"?

12 hours ago, Koomin said:

Your data that you gathered was "sometimes Wendy still does more damage than Wolfgang" with some pictures to prove it,

It feels like cherry-picking to judge like that when there is a plethora of other photographic evidence showing that Wendy, despite being a combat character, can only achieve DPS almost below Wolfgang very hard she tries.

[Cheggf]

6 hours ago, Soul7k said:

I will always think cutting anything in half is too heavy handed of a nerf. 

If Wolfgang did 10x damage would nerfing it to only 5x be too big of a nerf? Blanket statements like that don't really work. If something is super overtuned then lowering it by half if not even more is completely necessary. 

[Steorra]

Klei and Forumites here:

Victory by spending resources for Walter or other characters - Okay.

Victory by spending resources for Wendy with aAbby - How dare you? 

Victory by spending resources for Wendy (Wes) without Abby - Okay.

 

Such simple flexible standard.

[BalkanCockroach]

30 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Without Abby 

Maxwell is useless without his codex . Bad game design grrrrrrrr.

[Koomin]

11 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I acknowledge that there are many buffs, but my post is still arguing that the past nerfs were excessive, inappropriate, and make the character unbalanced.
The appropriate counterargument to this post is not "No problem because there are buffs," but "There are how buffs, so those nerf are appropriate and Wendy is balanced with other characters, so no problem"

What kind of buff actually be covering issue like "Walter can neutralize the boss if he spends the cost, but tank Abigail is not allowed even if he spends the cost" and "Wendy is a combat character, but she is not allowed unless her DPS is lower than Wolfgang"?

It feels like cherry-picking to judge like that when there is a plethora of other photographic evidence showing that Wendy, despite being a combat character, can only achieve DPS almost below Wolfgang very hard she tries.

You literally posted evidence in your initial post here that shows:

-the AoE queen of the game, who gets a bunch of other bonuses too beyond being AoE queen, still can achieve higher single target DPS than the single target DPS character.

You have made my point for me with your post, that Wendy is well balanced. If any conclusion is to be taken from your data, it seems actually that she is still a bit unbalanced in the strong direction?  I'm not sure what you are trying to show here.  The changes were appropriate.

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

You literally posted evidence in your initial post here that shows:

-the AoE queen of the game, who gets a bunch of other bonuses too beyond being AoE queen, still can achieve higher single target DPS than the single target DPS character.

You have made my point for me with your post, that Wendy is well balanced. If any conclusion is to be taken from your data, it seems actually that she is still a bit unbalanced in the strong direction?  I'm not sure what you are trying to show here.  The changes were appropriate.

Currently the true AOE queen in the game is Wigfrid... She can
- Deals 75 (Wet:111) + 20 flat damage per hit
- Grants invincibility time and dash when used
- Increases Wigfrid's movement speed by 20% while carrying Charged Elding Spear
- Recovers HP with each hit, and recovers more with Heartrending Ballad
- Recovers Sanity with each hit, and recovers more with Clear Minded Cadenza
- Unlike Abigail, she can equip armor, so she's much harder to die
- Doesn't require elixir, so there's no cost
(To be fair, Abigail's DPS of 40+25 in Shadow Sisterhood III+Night beats Wigfrid's DPS of 37.5+10.)

If you want AoE, you're definitely better off using Wigfrid.

Also, how many times do I have to explain to you that even though she can still achieve higher single target DPS than a single target DPS character, it is extremely limited and unusable? Did you know that that "Single target DPS character" can nearly 2.6 times the AoE DPS of the AoE DPS of "AOE Queen"?

 

And it seems like you deliberately ignored my question.

15 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

What kind of buff actually be covering issue like "Walter can neutralize the boss if he spends the cost, but tank Abigail is not allowed even if he spends the cost" and "Wendy is a combat character, but she is not allowed unless her DPS is lower than Wolfgang"?

 

[Dyzrespect]

On 2/23/2025 at 3:32 AM, SilverSpoon said:

However, Walter can slow down many bosses to a point where they are slower than a spider by Slow-Down Round Spam. This seems to about neutralize boss for Walter. Slow-Down Rounds would slow down enemy for 30 seconds with one hit so not difficult to use. Furthermore, Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds can slow them down even further.

I don't get the endless fixation on this juxtaposition between Walter and Wendy. I'll try to explain this yet again another way.

1. Was Walter ever going to be hit/attacked by the bosses in the first place, without slow down rounds?

Answer: No

2. Was Wendy ever going to be hit/attacked by the bosses in the first place, without Abigail tanking?

Answer: Yes

3. Which character's gameplay is most affected by their kiting/tanking method in question?

Answer: Wendy

Just to drive this home, your whole video you made displaying slowdown on AG is completely meaningless, you can do the EXACT SAME THING with literally just holding F, Ancient Guardian will be stunned if you hit him while he is charging, so you can sit there, slowly move back every 30 shots or so, and just kill him with pebble ammo.

[Waywarbler]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Currently the true AOE queen in the game is Wigfrid... She can
- Deals 75 (Wet:111) + 20 flat damage per hit
- Grants invincibility time and dash when used
- Increases Wigfrid's movement speed by 20% while carrying Charged Elding Spear

Okay but, you can't charge the Elding Spear until you've opened the moonstorms and gotten a restrained static. You aren't doing 111 wet damage + 20 planar damage or getting that movement speed buff until near the end of the lunar questline.

Wigfrid's charge also has a much smaller range compared to Abigail's AoE radius.

[Koomin]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Currently the true AOE queen in the game is Wigfrid... She can
- Deals 75 (Wet:111) + 20 flat damage per hit
- Grants invincibility time and dash when used
- Increases Wigfrid's movement speed by 20% while carrying Charged Elding Spear
- Recovers HP with each hit, and recovers more with Heartrending Ballad
- Recovers Sanity with each hit, and recovers more with Clear Minded Cadenza
- Unlike Abigail, she can equip armor, so she's much harder to die
- Doesn't require elixir, so there's no cost
(To be fair, Abigail's DPS of 40+25 in Shadow Sisterhood III+Night beats Wigfrid's DPS of 37.5+10.)

If you want AoE, you're definitely better off using Wigfrid.

Also, how many times do I have to explain to you that even though she can still achieve higher single target DPS than a single target DPS character, it is extremely limited and unusable? Did you know that that "Single target DPS character" can nearly 2.6 times the AoE DPS of the AoE DPS of "AOE Queen"?

 

And it seems like you deliberately ignored my question.

 

Wigfrid being a better AoE character than Wendy is a ridiculous statement and isn't really worth addressing (although people above did, and feel free to record a video of Wigfrid standing afk while killing hoards of spiders or splumonkeys or whatever). 

The weird Wigfrid reach argument is actually a pretty good example of why I ignored the Walter argument.  This entire beta has been "but Woodie can make tree guards so Wendy should have invincible Abigail", or "but Wolfgang does a lot of single target DPS so Wendy should too", or "but Woodie gets to function during moon storms so Abigail should attack shadow creatures". 

The character comparisons are almost every time wildly irrelevant, made up, wrong, or at best just advocating for giving Wendy the strengths of every single character which would be bad.  This Wigfrid one is multiple of these.

And for your Walter point- neutralizing bosses is bad.  Saying that Wendy should be able to do it because you think another character can is not a good argument.  I didn't like the slow stacking, and surprise surprise it is stated to be getting a change by the developers because they also don't like characters neutralizing things.  So there goes the weird Walter comparison argument.