Damage scaling (15-25-40 -> 30-50-80) was more fun than constant +25 damage. Make Abi more vulnerable if you feel the need to instead. There is no need for maximum duration of Shadow Sisterhood III to exist either

[Pig Princess]

I played for a while after some nerfs to Shadow Sisterhood happened (I'm still not going to choose lunar side - it's lame and nerf to other option doesn't make it better) and noticed a few things.

Previously, damage buff scaling with Abigail's own damage brought strategic aspect to SS III. It created synergy with nightshade nostrum, and while damage buff was noticable, it felt good because by using nightshade nostrum one gave up on extra speed and hp regeneration, meaning one needed better Abigail's managment/play more aggressively to draw aggro from Abigail, but reward was better as well. Another option was to plan strategically around time of day, my favourite is to kill multiple CC in a row and use enlightened night that starts with mysterious energy release to have Abigail maximum damage and speed in phase 1 and 2 of CC, but starting fights at dusk or postponing it to winter/spring or at least later days of autumn works too. I liked how SS III made me play around world conditions or encouraged to be better at managing Abigail instead of just giving her more healing (I don't even spam spectral cure-all, revenant restorative is enough, and no, it doesn't need nerf). I liked how damage scaling and considerable amount of damage in best conditions (80) made catching butterflies/bees/going on extra pipspook quest look definitely worth it. I like how I thought "I need to stockpile on butterflies/wings before winter for strategy" instead of "Do I have to get through tedium because of damage number that changes nothing?". Now it's just something that I feel obliged to do, it's buff after all (I say to myself), but it changes nothing in what elixirs I give to Abigail, what strategy I use and feels inconsequential on top of it because +25 damage per 2 Wendy's attacks is low. Even in Uncompromising Mode where veteran's curse (some debuffs like more damage taken) allows to use one item that catches stackable critters without bug net and keeps them fresh forever (extra loot from killing reworked Bee Queen; 20 per item (per BQ killed)) I felt tedium that I didn't feel in years. So even if cost was reduced, I know for a fact that it wouldn't solve anything, because problem is in different thing. I prepared for Misery Toadstool (unchanged in UM) - I used both this item and regular butterflies - and the most tedious part was not fight itself, not weapon/tool preparation, but running around and catching those bees and constantly interrupting myself to catch/kill butterflies, and then feed them. At this point it's better for my mental health to skip SS III in the first place, next time I'm doing Misery without that nonense. I legit liked more to rollback 30 times before I learned how to kill UM Bee Queen with Abigail, without spectral cure-alls, without healing for Wendy while using armor with 60% damage reduction and with not working hotkey (mod) for "escape" command (I move with mouse, I can't practically use that wheel in battles, I need hotkeys).

And as if this wasn't enough, it seems like I can't just apply as much buff as I need before the fight and kill krampii if necessary. No, I have to deal with critters and krampii during the fight or else I'll be too strong . Unless I want to limit myself to something like 180 seconds (minus the time to kill krampii, so even less) that is not enough for most of the bosses. Why must it be that way?..

One could bring up the arguement about caves: "You don't have to do anything, just be there - to reap maximum benefit!". True, maximum damage is applied just on the account of being there. However, there is much less content to apply this advantage to, and aside from very few bosses (2 that have value of repeating them, 3 if we count desire to repeat them) and ruins, there are not many scenarios to find oneself in and to desire that damage in the first place, and 80 damage per hit on top of other elixir does not trivialise them either; critters are not as available as well, and one has to plan strategically around how much to bring from surface, whether to bring mouring glories for resurrection and how much, whether it's worth inventory slot in the first place for ruins rush where there is inventory shortage, etc. Resurrection of critters is not free as well, neither on surface, nor in the caves. But it felt worth it with 80 damage per hit because 80 damage is noticeble even against single enemy and 80 damage didn't trivialise any enemy, be it single target or crowd. It felt like unique strategy, it felt like reward maked up for inconvenience and thus felt good. Now I don't even want to bother with critters for marginal benefit. Especially butterflies.

People wrote that Shadow Abigail was overpowered. But they wrote it because at a time sisturn III on top of healing was making any Abigail nearly immprtal, shadow-buffed or not. Planar defence that shadow buff gave didn't make gameplay any more interesting, it was fairly inconsequential without BS III considering most of the damage bosses deal is physical, but Klei nerfed that. Fine. If someone sees this as powerful, let alone overpowered, I suggest to get rid of remaining +5 planar defence of shadow buff or even make shadow buff delete planar defence of Shadow Sisterhood I, but bring back the thing that was really interesting to play around.

[Steorra]

I agreed

[Yaorin yon]

Overall, this is the right approach. Rewards should encourage people to play games, rather than forcing them to hold their noses and choose the less bad option between two poor ones.

[Steorra]

Spoiler

Forumites has malice and bias toward both "Wendy Players" and "Chinese people", Klei had ignored this factor, but simple accept those nerf ideas which of who be opposite with "Wendy players". 

I just want to see if Klei would keep same "Balance" ideas toward other characters like Wendy. 

If Klei would do, then players should blame Klei why they being obessesed with such unreasonable balance.

If Klei would not, then it's an obviously flexible standard towards Wendy by some mystery factors. Then Wendy Players have enough reason to blame Klei.

I only leave a safe option toward Klei which is "to fix and buff Wendy by some huge adjustment", which only would cause those who do have bias toward "Wendy players" would go blame Klei (or even not, they seems more like to go insult regular players rather than express their dissatisfaction to Klei).

I do hate nerfing changes by sake of "balance" which only diminish various gameplay enjoyment but brings no new interesting thing.

It's obviously Klei did the latest nerf to Wendy by mainly concerning Dingle's feedback threads. Which their original aim is only for a holy revenge for what their beloved Wigfrid got.

Dingle have terrible inventory management and obviously bias during their feedback. They do ignore how Abby is strong toward Inker trios before the tree and asking a nerf to Shadow Abby's power based on "easily kill inker trios". It's unreasonable I have to say. Many of my friends do complained about these things (the latest nerf is relative with Dingle's feedback) what happened before.

Shadow Abby's power is ok before, only 2 thing need nerf is 1 - CursedVex for pre-rift & 2 - Shadow Abby's planar defense. The planar damage nerf of Shadow Abby is confusing and unreasonable. It only erode the identity of Abby (the damage changing by timing is a feature of Abby). 

The cave was a good place for Abby's power before, and it do should be such a place for performing Abby's upside since Abby's power including something relative with the Shadow power.

Though I guess Klei DO trying to ignore some specific type feedback, it seems Klei now think all feedback for buffing Wendy is "bad faith" and they do rarely treat those feedback seriously.

 

 

(Clarity: I have no offend intention to any specific players according to their personal balance idea. I only feel dissatisfy due to Klei's unreasonable & bias feedback treatment. You could give any feedback and opinions to Klei since you have the right to express your opinion. But Klei should treat those feedback seriously with a fair standard. It's obviously Klei did not do right things toward Wendy's feedback. It's not players fault, even not Dingle's fault.)

 

 

16 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

Overall, this is the right approach. Rewards should encourage people to play games, rather than forcing them to hold their noses and choose the less bad option between two poor ones.

your words is such funny to me, Im sorry haha..

[rain grass]

This is interesting, I hope Klei can adopt this idea

[Pig Princess]

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

I just want to see if Klei would keep same "Balance" ideas toward other characters like Wendy. 

If Klei would do, then players should blame Klei why they being obessesed with such unreasonable balance.

If Klei would not, then it's an obviously flexible standard towards Wendy by some mystery factors. Then Wendy Players have enough reason to blame Klei.

 

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

It's obviously Klei did the latest nerf to Wendy by mainly concerning Dingle's feedback threads. Which their original aim is only for a holy revenge for what their beloved Wigfrid got.

Dingle have terrible inventory management and obviously bias during their feedback. They do ignore how Abby is strong toward Inker trios before the tree and asking a nerf to Shadow Abby's power based on "easily kill inker trios". It's unreasonable I have to say. Many of my friends do complained about these things (the latest nerf is relative with Dingle's feedback) what happened before.

Regarding this whole section. While I understand that people might feel exhausted - by long beta, by their feedback not taken into an account, by their threads being buried too quickly, etc. - and I understand that you sincerely want the best for Wendy (and I share this desire), please, let's keep discussion healthy. Let's not shift the topic and not bring Walter threads disappointment here, let's not blame people and let's not promote any sort of "trial" for developers - it just creates alienation, fuels misunderstanding and doesn't help anyone to understand problems of Wendy better. Especially if developers indeed don't play their game - their only option (aside from playing the game) is to look at quality of arguements forum users provide, popularity of opinion and how compatible suggestion is with their vision of character fantasy, however flawless or flawed is this concept. And they also look at how much resources they can afford to spent, it has to be acknowledged, so even if I want a skill to switch perspective to Abigail and control her for a while directly and Wendy through commands (as team spirit untimate or as unique effect of forget-me-lots in sisturn), it's never going to happen unless modded. Nevertheless of those hypothetical suggestions, our goals on Abigail's damage scaling align, but I fear this thread might be locked if we go venting route. I don't want it, you don't want it, I presume. I actually need help in showing that meaningful discussion can be done on topic of Wendy, that Wendy players are not crazy unsatiable spoiled people who only know how to afk on spiders, so if you can help me, I would appreciate.

Somehow I have a feeling that you are exhausted/feel injustice done to you/disappointed in developer's decisions - and maybe I'm so off in my estimate and I'm just silly... But if not, I want you to know that I wholeheartedly support the desire to support your favourite character so Wendy is even more interesting to play. Wendy players don't need to shut up unconditionally because they might irritate everyone at this point, Wendy needs support, especially because of abundance of low-quality feedback. I don't think of you as inherently malicious and crazy either, and I know all too well how it feels to be (or think) you are alone against group that claims you are. I wish such situations never happened to anyone. But even to me Walter threads felt like last resort, like a way to say something to community at the cost of Walter. You may genuely think that what you did was justified, you may genuely be right or mistaken about Walter's fault tolerance and power, and about what is justice and honesty. But I think those kind of threads and discussions is not what should be done, neither for Walter's sake, nor for the sake of justice, and it's not the kind of justice we need. I support being angry of injustice and double thinking, but I must say that people do genuine mistakes more frequently than we want to and than we want to admit. People genuely understand other people worse than we think we do. To me it looks like Dingle posted sincere feedback, but genuely didn't think that 20 day playthrough has it's limits and didn't mention those limits; that we should assess skill tree influence in addition to combination of skilltree + base kit; Dingle might genuely fail to pinpoint what exactly made Wendy too strong to feel and to what extent, they gave their best guess and best guess at possible solution. Other members of forums can use structured experience-based arguements to show others that they are mistaken, that includes me, you, Dingle, etc. I think it's important to keep in mind that you - or me, or anyone you respect/like a lot - might genuely be mistaken, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to arrive to more accurate image of reality and nobody should even try. Which is why it's important to look only at arguements quality. I believe in the arguements of high quality and in superiority of honest constructive discussion, moreover, I believe in superiority of this approach only when everyone else executes it. Which is why I'm asking everyone in this thread and possible other threads to do it. It doesn't mean I can't get emotional, you can clearly see in my original post inner scream. But I thought it was within constructive feedback limits and that it was better to write that way, which is why I wrote what I wrote.

By the way, Dingle might genuely have different idea of what Wendy should be than you or me. I'm actually interested to see what concept people hold in mind in addition to their suggestions. Mine is "High risk-high reward duo character with active managment needed in the fight". I frankly don't think concept of "Wendy being good for hordes but at least average at bosses" is very interesting, or concept "Little bit of everything (damage, weather managment, etc.)" is very interesting either, nor is "Character who's selling point is cheap and reliable AoE", nor "Easy and reliable character". That is why we all disagree from time to time on forums.

This is exactly why you and me were in different "camps" when it was about Blessed Sisturn III, but I'm not breaking consistency of my views by supporting you. I don't want to break friendly attutude that you show to me and I hope I won't, but... In discussions back then I probably was the person who "liked" Lardee posts the most frequently, showed the most consistent agreement with a person who you declared to be incapable of discussion and waste of time to read to. I didn't act out of malice or was insincere, neither back then, nor now. But I'm sure my position on that matter made me look in your eyes as Wendy hater or something like this. I didn't change my opinion on that matter, and it's unfortunate that in the end both me and you are dissatisfied with current version of BS III (as far as I can tell about you, at least), and I don't regret that I showed my dissatisfaction about previous version. But my point is what looks like malice to you might not be malice in practice. So I propose to ignore suspicions and just discuss the topic, to try and preserve neutrality of discussion so it doesn't feel like dissatisfaction swamp to anyone else (so people are not encouraged to leave thread or provoked).

 

As for the topic itself, I understand that +25 vs +40 damage might feel inconsequential, but it's both the fact that it's lower and the absence of strategy needed/my influence on the result being taken away, as well as choice being destroyed and replaced with "one more mediocre buff on top that you should theoretically want every time".

[Jakepeng99]

It getting nerfed seemed dumb, i liked the skill. If they were to nerf it anyway, make insect mobs make her last shorter and make big mobs like rabbits longer.

[Pig Princess]

7 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It getting nerfed seemed dumb, i liked the skill. If they were to nerf it anyway, make insect mobs make her last shorter and make big mobs like rabbits longer.

I think stackable mobs are fine as they are, but rabbits, spiders, moles, fish, birds, etc. should be given more time. It would be wonderful if there was real synergy with that rabbit hat, silk crafts (bird trap and fish farm), as well as something to incentivise player think and use their game knowledge about what can be used for a buff that is alive and goes into inventory. I wish game rewarded player to be clever for usage of tin fishing bin as unspoiling storage of shadow buff (even if it wasn't as good as killing even 10 stackable critters).

[Steorra]

36 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

please, let's keep discussion healthy. Let's not shift the topic and not bring Walter threads disappointment here, let's not blame people and let's not promote any sort of "trial" for developers - it just creates alienation, fuels misunderstanding and doesn't help anyone to understand problems of Wendy better. Especially if developers indeed don't play their game - their only option (aside from playing the game) is to look at quality of arguements forum users provide, popularity of opinion and how compatible suggestion is with their vision of character fantasy, however flawless or flawed is this concept

I have no intention to make your thread become worse. So let me hide the off-topic things here for saving our devs' time.

Spoiler

1. According to our devs' words few days ago, even the thread got locked, they still received the valuable discussion in it.

2. Yifei DID gave many "healthy, polite, detailed, creativity, etc," feedback of Wendy during about 3 month. Klei almost did nothing to them. The only thing Klei accept from those detailed test & feedback is - to make Lunar Abby's mutation become more achievable.

3. I'm not mad, also not crazy. the Walter thing, which I only focused to nerf is - the ShadowPrison-like slowing effect. I DO think it is imbalance and unhealthy. If you once tried to play Walter, I think you would have similar opinion toward it. I say these to you is for clarify that even I DO feel dissatisfaction to folk's flexible standard & Klei's decision & some whatever, I am still honest toward Walter's feedback. The only different thing is folks have completely attitude towards Wendy's feedback / Walter's feedback, or, towards different people. It's more like people imagine "Steorra is angry so she need to avenge" first, then slander me as "dishonest" laterly.

 

Edited for additional details - I also have balance worries about Woby There skill. Thieta already gave more details arguments to clarify why that skill is imbalance. 

then regarding the topic, beside what I said above (about the Shadow Abby's role, the cave, etc. All of them is on topic) I have no more different argument. You listed mostly ideas which is almost as same as mine, and with fully details. 

[Dingle]

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Forumites has malice and bias toward both "Wendy Players" and "Chinese people", Klei had ignored this factor, but simple accept those nerf ideas which of who be opposite with "Wendy players". 

I just want to see if Klei would keep same "Balance" ideas toward other characters like Wendy. 

If Klei would do, then players should blame Klei why they being obessesed with such unreasonable balance.

If Klei would not, then it's an obviously flexible standard towards Wendy by some mystery factors. Then Wendy Players have enough reason to blame Klei.

I only leave a safe option toward Klei which is "to fix and buff Wendy by some huge adjustment", which only would cause those who do have bias toward "Wendy players" would go blame Klei (or even not, they seems more like to go insult regular players rather than express their dissatisfaction to Klei).

I do hate nerfing changes by sake of "balance" which only diminish various gameplay enjoyment but brings no new interesting thing.

It's obviously Klei did the latest nerf to Wendy by mainly concerning Dingle's feedback threads. Which their original aim is only for a holy revenge for what their beloved Wigfrid got.

Dingle have terrible inventory management and obviously bias during their feedback. They do ignore how Abby is strong toward Inker trios before the tree and asking a nerf to Shadow Abby's power based on "easily kill inker trios". It's unreasonable I have to say. Many of my friends do complained about these things (the latest nerf is relative with Dingle's feedback) what happened before.

Shadow Abby's power is ok before, only 2 thing need nerf is 1 - CursedVex for pre-rift & 2 - Shadow Abby's planar defense. The planar damage nerf of Shadow Abby is confusing and unreasonable. It only erode the identity of Abby (the damage changing by timing is a feature of Abby). 

The cave was a good place for Abby's power before, and it do should be such a place for performing Abby's upside since Abby's power including something relative with the Shadow power.

Though I guess Klei DO trying to ignore some specific type feedback, it seems Klei now think all feedback for buffing Wendy is "bad faith" and they do rarely treat those feedback seriously.

 

 

(Clarity: I have no offend intention to any specific players according to their personal balance idea. I only feel dissatisfy due to Klei's unreasonable & bias feedback treatment. You could give any feedback and opinions to Klei since you have the right to express your opinion. But Klei should treat those feedback seriously with a fair standard. It's obviously Klei did not do right things toward Wendy's feedback. It's not players fault, even not Dingle's fault.)

 

 

your words is such funny to me, Im sorry haha..

I didn't have an agenda about Wigfrid. I really don't know what you're getting that from. I've made posts where I say "justice for Wigford", but that's just a joke.

Someone requested that I do a rifts playthrough, because there was an often repeated lie that Wendy was weak on rift content. Ironically, the person requesting I do the playthrough was someone that was lying about Wendy being weak, so that they could request lots of buffs for her.

In my rifts playthrough, I found out she was very strong against all rifts content. I was mostly just using a ham bat, too.

Sorry if you think I personally got her nerfed. If I did, it's only because there wasn't much real feedback for Wendy at the time. There was a small group of disingenuous Wendy players, filling the forum with false feedback. Just malicious strategy to get her buffed.

Again, it's really ironic, but this disingenuous strategy to get her buffed probably got her a much worse skill tree than she could have gotten.

[Peasant]

I myself prefers a more stable damage boost, so that you don't have to wait till night to fight a boss

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

In my rifts playthrough, I found out she was very strong against all rifts content. I was mostly just using a ham bat, too.

In pre-skill tree version? How did you managed took down lunar bear without becoming Wes?

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I didn't have an agenda about Wigfrid. I really don't know what you're getting that from. I've made posts where I say "justice for Wigford", but that's just a joke.

Someone requested that I do a rifts playthrough, because there was an often repeated lie that Wendy was weak on rift content. Ironically, the person requesting I do the playthrough was someone that was lying about Wendy being weak, so that they could request lots of buffs for her.

In my rifts playthrough, I found out she was very strong against all rifts content. I was mostly just using a ham bat, too.

Sorry if you think I personally got her nerfed. If I did, it's only because there wasn't much real feedback for Wendy at the time. There was a small group of disingenuous Wendy players, filling the forum with false feedback. Just malicious strategy to get her buffed.

Again, it's really ironic, but this disingenuous strategy to get her buffed probably got her a much worse skill tree than she could have gotten.

Spoiler

your words are completely meaningless to me.

I already said that I have no attitude towards you.

Go blame Klei first. You are a regular player. You have no ability to give a nerf decision to Wendy. Don't think your are important enough for drawing my emotion.

off topic

7 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I myself prefers a more stable damage boost, so that you don't have to wait till night to fight a boss

In pre-skill tree version? How did you managed took down lunar bear without becoming Wes?

Spoiler

Reminder: keep the discussion on topic. Ignore those personal thing or, have a try of DM.

their previous opinions toward Wendy is not important. Especially for now, for this thread.

off topic guideline reminder.

[Dingle]

8 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I myself prefers a more stable damage boost, so that you don't have to wait till night to fight a boss

In pre-skill tree version? How did you managed took down lunar bear without becoming Wes?

That lie still getting repeated? Last I checked Lardee had a 45 second kill time against Armored Bearger. Wes or Wilson is around 90 seconds.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I myself prefers a more stable damage boost, so that you don't have to wait till night to fight a boss

On topic discussion:

I prefer to make lore first, balance later.

The argument of mine is - Abby and especially the Shadow Abby is suppose to be a hunter in the night. She is a ghost with Shadow power, which means she should have different power for day & night. That's why I prefer the old version.

And we do have the Nightshade Elixir.

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

 

Regarding this whole section. While I understand that people might feel exhausted - by long beta, by their feedback not taken into an account, by their threads being buried too quickly, etc. - and I understand that you sincerely want the best for Wendy (and I share this desire), please, let's keep discussion healthy. Let's not shift the topic and not bring Walter threads disappointment here, let's not blame people and let's not promote any sort of "trial" for developers - it just creates alienation, fuels misunderstanding and doesn't help anyone to understand problems of Wendy better. Especially if developers indeed don't play their game - their only option (aside from playing the game) is to look at quality of arguements forum users provide, popularity of opinion and how compatible suggestion is with their vision of character fantasy, however flawless or flawed is this concept. And they also look at how much resources they can afford to spent, it has to be acknowledged, so even if I want a skill to switch perspective to Abigail and control her for a while directly and Wendy through commands (as team spirit untimate or as unique effect of forget-me-lots in sisturn), it's never going to happen unless modded. Nevertheless of those hypothetical suggestions, our goals on Abigail's damage scaling align, but I fear this thread might be locked if we go venting route. I don't want it, you don't want it, I presume. I actually need help in showing that meaningful discussion can be done on topic of Wendy, that Wendy players are not crazy unsatiable spoiled people who only know how to afk on spiders, so if you can help me, I would appreciate.

Somehow I have a feeling that you are exhausted/feel injustice done to you/disappointed in developer's decisions - and maybe I'm so off in my estimate and I'm just silly... But if not, I want you to know that I wholeheartedly support the desire to support your favourite character so Wendy is even more interesting to play. Wendy players don't need to shut up unconditionally because they might irritate everyone at this point, Wendy needs support, especially because of abundance of low-quality feedback. I don't think of you as inherently malicious and crazy either, and I know all too well how it feels to be (or think) you are alone against group that claims you are. I wish such situations never happened to anyone. But even to me Walter threads felt like last resort, like a way to say something to community at the cost of Walter. You may genuely think that what you did was justified, you may genuely be right or mistaken about Walter's fault tolerance and power, and about what is justice and honesty. But I think those kind of threads and discussions is not what should be done, neither for Walter's sake, nor for the sake of justice, and it's not the kind of justice we need. I support being angry of injustice and double thinking, but I must say that people do genuine mistakes more frequently than we want to and than we want to admit. People genuely understand other people worse than we think we do. To me it looks like Dingle posted sincere feedback, but genuely didn't think that 20 day playthrough has it's limits and didn't mention those limits; that we should assess skill tree influence in addition to combination of skilltree + base kit; Dingle might genuely fail to pinpoint what exactly made Wendy too strong to feel and to what extent, they gave their best guess and best guess at possible solution. Other members of forums can use structured experience-based arguements to show others that they are mistaken, that includes me, you, Dingle, etc. I think it's important to keep in mind that you - or me, or anyone you respect/like a lot - might genuely be mistaken, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to arrive to more accurate image of reality and nobody should even try. Which is why it's important to look only at arguements quality. I believe in the arguements of high quality and in superiority of honest constructive discussion, moreover, I believe in superiority of this approach only when everyone else executes it. Which is why I'm asking everyone in this thread and possible other threads to do it. It doesn't mean I can't get emotional, you can clearly see in my original post inner scream. But I thought it was within constructive feedback limits and that it was better to write that way, which is why I wrote what I wrote.

By the way, Dingle might genuely have different idea of what Wendy should be than you or me. I'm actually interested to see what concept people hold in mind in addition to their suggestions. Mine is "High risk-high reward duo character with active managment needed in the fight". I frankly don't think concept of "Wendy being good for hordes but at least average at bosses" is very interesting, or concept "Little bit of everything (damage, weather managment, etc.)" is very interesting either, nor is "Character who's selling point is cheap and reliable AoE", nor "Easy and reliable character". That is why we all disagree from time to time on forums.

This is exactly why you and me were in different "camps" when it was about Blessed Sisturn III, but I'm not breaking consistency of my views by supporting you. I don't want to break friendly attutude that you show to me and I hope I won't, but... In discussions back then I probably was the person who "liked" Lardee posts the most frequently, showed the most consistent agreement with a person who you declared to be incapable of discussion and waste of time to read to. I didn't act out of malice or was insincere, neither back then, nor now. But I'm sure my position on that matter made me look in your eyes as Wendy hater or something like this. I didn't change my opinion on that matter, and it's unfortunate that in the end both me and you are dissatisfied with current version of BS III (as far as I can tell about you, at least), and I don't regret that I showed my dissatisfaction about previous version. But my point is what looks like malice to you might not be malice in practice. So I propose to ignore suspicions and just discuss the topic, to try and preserve neutrality of discussion so it doesn't feel like dissatisfaction swamp to anyone else (so people are not encouraged to leave thread or provoked).

 

As for the topic itself, I understand that +25 vs +40 damage might feel inconsequential, but it's both the fact that it's lower and the absence of strategy needed/my influence on the result being taken away, as well as choice being destroyed and replaced with "one more mediocre buff on top that you should theoretically want every time".

What limits do you mean, for a 20 day playthrough?

"Duo character that can do a lot of aoe damage easily, and powerful for general combat in the right hands" sounds right to me.

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

On topic discussion:

I prefer to make lore first, balance later.

The argument of mine is - Abby and especially the Shadow Abby is suppose to be a hunter in the night. She is a ghost with Shadow power, which means she should have different power for day & night. That's why I prefer the old version.

And we do have the Nightshade Elixir.

I like the change because it means you can use elixirs that aren't Nightshade Nostrum.

In my playthrough, I noticed it was pretty mandatory unless you were in the caves. That seems limiting to me.

[Peasant]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

That lie still getting repeated? Last I checked Lardee had a 45 second kill time against Armored Bearger. Wes or Wilson is around 90 seconds.

I'm asking HOW did you managed, cause that thing had always been a pain in my back, simply damn DELETING Abigail no matter how hard I try

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

off topic guideline reminder.

Is a noob player asking a high skilled player how to kill a boss more efficiently considered off topic now?

[Steorra]

36 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I like the change because it means you can use elixirs that aren't Nightshade Nostrum.

hmm. still, lore first.

Shadow abby was supposed to be a role who have more power under Shadow's cover - I mean, the night.

36 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I noticed it was pretty mandatory

and this is not exactly. A regular battle rhythm of Abby is - using the nightshade nostrum on day or dusk, laterly you need healing, then switch the potion effect to the cure-all. That's fine tbh.

Yes, the battle timing would be a bit limit to Abby. But that's the character feature which including the lore part. I don't think to erode the lore of a character is good. This is nothing about the balance, but about the immersion.

35 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I'm asking HOW did you managed, cause that thing had always been a pain in my back, simply damn DELETING Abigail no matter how hard I try

beware, "skill issue" is coming.

We do have an "elitist club" of Wendy during this beta. I don't like Klei's decision which trying to gatekeep Wendy's 80% power as a privilege for only elitists.

35 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Is a noob player asking a high skilled player how to kill a boss more efficiently considered off topic now?

Yes? I guess this have non business about Pig Princess's post? And it have a high chance to make this post got locked.

 

[Dingle]

24 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I'm asking HOW did you managed, cause that thing had always been a pain in my back, simply damn DELETING Abigail no matter how hard I try

Is a noob player asking a high skilled player how to kill a boss more efficiently considered off topic now?

I don't think this is off topic, we're still talking about Wendy and her skill tree.

Team Spirit helps a ton, on lots of things Wendy had trouble keeping Abigail alive on before.

"Escape" gives Abby invulnerability frames. The timing seems pretty generous, though it took me a bit to get it on some bosses. For lunar bearger, the aoe is really predictable, so that helps.

"Attack Here" lets you reposition Abby. This is extremely useful for lots of things, but particularly for bosses that don't hit things as well behind them. You can just send Abby some distance behind a boss, and when she catches up in a few seconds she will be on the boss's back. You can also use this to avoid AOE if you think you will mess up the Escape timing.

[Steorra]

Here comes an argument of @DVGMedia for join the discussion, I.. was missed this 1 hour by my ADHD, I'm sorry...

[Cassielu]

I have the feeling that Steorra and Dingle are conducting a JoeW summoning ritual to destroy this topic

[Peasant]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Team Spirit helps a ton, on lots of things Wendy had trouble keeping Abigail alive on before.

So it's post skill tree after all...I was asking about pre-skill tree version, how did u managed to take down lunar damn bear without becoming Wes back then?

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I don't think this is off topic, we're still talking about Wendy and her skill tree.

you DO shifting the topic from the planar damage scaling of Shadow Abby into Wendy and her skill tree

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, YXukun said:

So it's post skill tree after all...I was asking about pre-skill tree version, how did u managed to take down lunar damn bear without becoming Wes back then?

I don't understand the question, as we're in the beta forum, talking about the Wendy skill tree.

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

you DO shifting the topic from the planar damage scaling of Shadow Abby into Wendy and her skill tree

?????

The planar damage scaling of Shadow Abby is part of Wendy and her skill tree.

[Pig Princess]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

What limits do you mean, for a 20 day playthrough

You can't really do moon quest line (Crab King, Celestial Champion), (Armored) Bearger, (Crystal) Deerclops, shadow quest line (Shadow Pieces, Ancient Fuelweaver), also playing for 1 season means you don't have to prepare for later stuff and multitask: you don't have to weave Pearl Quests into you shedule, same for repeated kills of bosses (CC, Dfly), you don't try Misery Toadstool and do regular one at most (difference between 40 000hp and 20 000 is significant considering this is the phase Abigail struggles in). You don't experience much of non-boss things Abigail exceels at (frog rain, sea encounters), but at the same time you don't see how she struggles against densely packed brightshades and how she brings more mess in Klaus fight than she helps (even with scare command, and I read that you can be unluckly and Klaus can enrage). Also limited utility outside of combat (I'm completely fine with that, but some people mentioned it as significant thing missing compared to other characters).

In general though Bee Queen and Dragonfly are easier bosses, but over time you fight more things like CC and Armored Bearger/Crystal Deerclops (I agree that Varg just melts, but still).

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

I like the change because it means you can use elixirs that aren't Nightshade Nostrum.

In my playthrough, I noticed it was pretty mandatory unless you were in the caves.

It's peculiar how in my playthroughs nightshade is used only for 3 bosses, for everything else I prefer revenant restorative or vigor mortis. I actually find that Wendy with MG II is almost exclusive user of this elixir among both sisters, especially because dusk damage is usually good enough and vigor mortis allows Abigail to catch up faster after Wendy's movement/commands and deal more hits per kiting cycles. There are also fights like Bee Queen where I either find revenant restorative and waiting for dusk cheaper, or I don't use nightshade at all for how little benefit it gives, i.e. total damage Abigail deals in the fight (Armored Bearger/Crystal Deerclops, fight is too short for elixir alone to do anything significant + planar reduction if murder buff is not used, contrary for Dragonfly fight that is long, or Bee Queen where killing crowd faster has significant advantage, or Crab King where I use it because Abigail doesn't need anything else, fight is relatively long, so I might as well use it, but I don't fight it more than once). Not to mention that most of the damage is done by Wendy anyway, so 15/25->40 increase per second (roughly 13.5-7.5 per hit effectively) doesn't feel that impactful, while 30/50->80 does (25-15 effectively per hit), and it was enough to convince me to use nightshade more. I'm just lazy to burn my mouring glories for nightshade, and then possibly cure-all if alternative is revenant restorative from the beginning. And there is also an option to use natural dusk/night or manually-triggered day of full and new moon, so I don't use nightshade then as well, but damage increase dynamic still works.

2 hours ago, YXukun said:

I'm asking HOW did you managed, cause that thing had always been a pain in my back, simply damn DELETING Abigail no matter how hard I try

I'm not the person you asked, but even I - relatively skilled player - admit that Armored Bearger has low tolerance for mistakes. One mistake - Abigail is deleted (at least without BS III). But again, from my testing BS III doesn't do what healing couldn't prior to skill tree

[Debruh]

It encouraging you use nightshade was so nice.

Pre rifts, you plan some fights around fighting at night, and notice how stronger Abby is at the caves. But post rifts you don't really. So he change was nice. Sad that it was removed and not brought back with the cursed vex nerf

Really hope it's brought back.

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

like the change because it means you can use elixirs that aren't Nightshade Nostrum.

In my playthrough, I noticed it was pretty mandatory unless you were in the caves. That seems limiting to me.

Really not. Not only can you just wait for dusk or nighttime, who are the longest sections in 3/4 of the year. But there's nothing that requires Abby deals ger 40+40 damage or her 25+25.