Walter's slowing effect is imbalance and boring. Nerf slowing effect and buff Woby please.

[Steorra]

To brings Bee Queen (which should be the most hardest boss for Walter) as the example here:

Cheese:

https://b23.tv/kaVwk6J

Cheese not:

https://b23.tv/pMGDiej

 

 

I think this need be fix. Many of us keep telling that how important the downside of a character is for the gameplay. But by Walter's new icker and slowing round mechanics, his main downside toward Bee Queen has been completely fixed.

Even worse, the whole slowing stuffa of Walter simply ruins the gameplay of boss fighting for this character. All bosses interactions become a boring "slowing, kiting, FFFF, slowing" way. I believe this is unhealthy and need to be recheck.

 

Edited for adding my personal idea:

I don't mind if the tree would fix a character downside. I mind if the way is boring, and I mind if folks being dishonest to different characters.

Shall we have a method to deal with bosses by using Woby but not by kiting brainless and pressing F? 

 

 

Detailed ideas update:

I personally rather hope we could have a skill of Woby which makes Woby have more endurance for battle (make it become another form of health bar, but it's for Woby and when it reduced to 0 it only makes Walter be drop off but won't make Woby die).

Imo, the current slowing rounds makes almost all interactions with all bosses become homogenised, and yes it completely fixed the main downside of Walter towards beequeen, and even worse - it makes all bosses become a simple kiting game for Walter. It's boring.

I hope we could diminish the effect of slowing rounds a lot but give some skill to fix the downside of Woby in future - to keep the downside of Woby still valid but have more fault tolerance for a healthy interaction toward boss fightings. 

[Thieta]

Nerf slowing on the rounds for bosses specifically? That way this problem doesn't happen with any boss.

Either nerf for boss or make bosses not be slowed (immune)

[Steorra]

21 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Nerf slowing on the rounds for bosses specifically? That way this problem doesn't happen with any boss.

Either nerf for boss or make bosses not be slowed (immune)

Or just make Walter's rounds do no effect to bees (make his rounds be allergic to bees as well)(joking)

[Lardee]

The slingshot is a way for Walter to contend with his downside, not remove it. Because of his bee allergy Walter is incentivized to fight bees in a different way than how Wilson does it which is what a downside should do.

To remove Walter's downside would be to remove the negative consequences of playing Walter the same as Wilson.

[DaDa_waw]

7 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The slingshot is a way for Walter to contend with his downside, not remove it. Because of his bee allergy Walter is incentivized to fight bees in a different way than how Wilson does it which is what a downside should do.

To remove Walter's downside would be to remove the negative consequences of playing Walter the same as Wilson.

Yes, that's quite reasonable. Every character should have such a design, rather than insisting that something can never be solved by the character's abilities.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

https://b23.tv/kaVwk6J

Evidence above.

I think this need be fix. Many of us keep telling that how important the downside of a character is for the gameplay. But by Walter's new icker and slowing round mechanics, his main downside toward Bee Queen has been completely fixed.

I hope we could be honest to different characters. If the downside fixing is unacceptable, please asking for a fix of this.

 

Though, I have no idea about how to fix this problem by adjusting bosses area but do no influence to other characters (or cause no new issues of making bosses fighting them eachother). So it seems the better way to fix this is nerf the slowing and icker rounds.

 

Edited for adding my personal idea:

I don't mind if the tree would fix a character downside. I mind if the way is boring, and I mind if folks being dishonest to different characters.

Shall we have a method to deal with bees by Woby but not by pressing F?

Looking at the video it's not even the slowdown rounds doing most of the work the problem is that the person in the video goes to the edge of the bee queen's territorial range and keeps attacking from there in other words it was a cheese method. They should simply implement an anti cheese.

Actually a simple fix for the cheese seems to be if someone leaves the spawn radius of the bee queen and attacks from outside it after inflicting a set amount of damage simply make her despawn because the method being used in the video is the same one that's commonly used against clockwork knights since they ignore your attacks and keep trying to go home leaving them as sitting ducks.

Alternatively after receiving a set amount of damage they could probably just remove her despawn range limit though that could create a new cheese in it's place so maybe not?

[Steorra]

28 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Looking at the video it's not even the slowdown rounds doing most of the work the problem is that the person in the video goes to the edge of the bee queen's territorial range and keeps attacking from there in other words it was a cheese method. They should simply implement an anti cheese.

Actually a simple fix for the cheese seems to be if someone leaves the spawn radius of the bee queen and attacks from outside it after inflicting a set amount of damage simply make her despawn because the method being used in the video is the same one that's commonly used against clockwork knights since they ignore your attacks and keep trying to go home leaving them as sitting ducks.

Alternatively after receiving a set amount of damage they could probably just remove her despawn range limit though that could create a new cheese in it's place so maybe not?

I would agree that the cheese need to be fix.

But it's same when no cheese.

https://b23.tv/pMGDiej

Walter already become one of the most easiest anti-beequeen character.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I would agree that the cheese need to be fix.

But it's same when no cheese.

https://b23.tv/pMGDiej

Walter already become one of the most easiest anti-beequeen character.

I mean that's kind of the point though? The idea is that when geared up with the thulecite frame and slow down rounds the fight becomes easier to compensate how quickly it spirals out of control if he gets one tapped. The interaction is supposed to be the result of his character progression so I don't really see a issue there. Besides if the player screws up in the timing of reapplying the slowdown rounds it's game over anyway assuming their using Woby at least.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean that's kind of the point though? The idea is that when geared up with the thulecite frame and slow down rounds the fight becomes easier to compensate how quickly it spirals out of control if he gets one tapped. The interaction is supposed to be the result of his character progression so I don't really see a issue there. Besides if the player screws up in the timing of reapplying the slowdown rounds it's game over anyway assuming their using Woby at least.

Tbh I do hope we could have some skill to fix Woby's downside since she should not be worse than beefalo in most combat scenarios. To fix the problem by using slowing rounds and make it become the only method is a bit boring and, broken, I mean. Especially you could use beefalo as a better Woby. This is weird which encourages players to cancel the Woby character.

[maro47]

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I would agree that the cheese need to be fix.

But it's same when no cheese.

https://b23.tv/pMGDiej

Walter already become one of the most easiest anti-beequeen character.

You can see in the video that he is only using moonglass rounds as a way to clear out her minions while simultaneously dealing 51 damage to bq herself? I feel there is no need for bullet variety when some bullets will clearly never get used or even be able keep up with some of the others, they will have to adjust some numbers on some of these bullets and find a way to make the weaker bullets have uses outside of combat.

[Crimson Hollow]

1 minute ago, maro47 said:

You can see in the video that he is only using moonglass rounds as a way to clear out her minions while simultaneously dealing 51 damage to bq herself? I feel there is no need for bullet variety when some bullets will clearly never get used or even be able keep up with some of the others, they will have to adjust some numbers on some of these bullets and find a way to make the weaker bullets have uses outside of combat.

hopefully that's what they're doing right now. Or at least condense some skill points for more utility. 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh I do hope we could have some skill to fix Woby's downside since she should not be worse than beefalo in most combat scenarios. To fix the problem by using slowing rounds and make it become the only method is a bit boring and, broken, I mean. Especially you could use beefalo as a better Woby. This is weird which encourages players to cancel the Woby character.

Well the goal seems to be to make her strong in her own way rather than trying to compete how that's going to turn out is unknown but by design I don't think it's possible to make her better than a beefalo combat wise without throwing out her cowardly design and  nullifying Walter's downside. If you make Woby take damage for him she'll block his downside interaction so slowdown rounds still exist as the most natural solution without messing with either of their core designs.

3 minutes ago, maro47 said:

You can see in the video that he is only using moonglass rounds as a way to clear out her minions while simultaneously dealing 51 damage to bq herself? I feel there is no need for bullet variety when some bullets will clearly never get used or even be able keep up with some of the others, they will have to adjust some numbers on some of these bullets and find a way to make the weaker bullets have uses outside of combat.

 

2 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

hopefully that's what they're doing right now. Or at least condense some skill points for more utility. 

I feel like he has too many ammo types to that this seems like a pipe dream unless they start diversifying round effects. For example shockscrap rounds, dreadstone rounds, gunpowder rounds, brightshade rounds, and pure brilliance rounds just don't stand up to cursed rounds. I do feel like it's fine that glass overshadows marble and stinger rounds though since you need to build the lunar altar to unlock them anyway though.

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Well the goal seems to be to make her strong in her own way rather than trying to compete how that's going to turn out is unknown but by design I don't think it's possible to make her better than a beefalo combat wise without throwing out her cowardly design and  nullifying Walter's downside. If you make Woby take damage for him she'll block his downside interaction so slowdown rounds still exist as the most natural solution without messing with either of their core designs.

I personally rather hope we could have a skill of Woby which makes Woby have more endurance for battle (make it become another form of health bar, but it's for Woby and when it reduced to 0 it only makes Walter be drop off but won't make Woby die).

I was just elaborated my idea about this issue in other thread, just copy paste it here.

Imo, the current slowing rounds makes almost all interactions with all bosses become homogenised, and yes it completely fixed the main downside of Walter towards beequeen.

I hope we could diminish the effect of slowing rounds a lot but give some skill to fix the downside of Woby in future - to keep the downside of Woby still valid but have more fault tolerance for a healthy interaction toward boss fightings. 

[Crimson Hollow]

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

feel like he has too many ammo types to that this seems like a pipe dream unless they start diversifying round effects. For example shockscrap rounds, dreadstone rounds, gunpowder rounds, brightshade rounds, and pure brilliance rounds just don't stand up to cursed rounds. I do feel like it's fine that glass overshadows marble and stinger rounds though since you need to build the lunar altar to unlock them anyway though.

I believe if there are no difference between two ammo types other than damage, they should not take up two skill points. now even gunpowder rounds overshadow stinger, gold and marble rounds, i hope there are some more utility to each of them even though its just some recochet stuff. 

[Mysterious box]

40 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I personally rather hope we could have a skill of Woby which makes Woby have more endurance for battle (make it become another form of health bar, but it's for Woby and when it reduced to 0 it only makes Walter be drop off but won't make Woby die).

I was just elaborated my idea about this issue in other thread, just copy paste it here.

Imo, the current slowing rounds makes almost all interactions with all bosses become homogenised, and yes it completely fixed the main downside of Walter towards beequeen.

I hope we could diminish the effect of slowing rounds a lot but give some skill to fix the downside of Woby in future - to keep the downside of Woby still valid but have more fault tolerance for a healthy interaction toward boss fightings. 

Tanking goes against the core design of Walter and Woby and even then unless Woby were to take all the damage for Walter this wouldn't help his interaction with the bee queen.

 

34 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

I believe if there are no difference between two ammo types other than damage, they should not take up two skill points. now even gunpowder rounds overshadow stinger, gold and marble rounds, i hope there are some more utility to each of them even though its just some recochet stuff. 

Gunpowder doesn't overshadow stinger rounds glass ones do gunpowder does have aoe but only on the crit effect which is too inconsistent to work against a horde.

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Tanking goes against the core design of Walter and Woby

It's not to make Woby as a tank. It's just make you could suffer some hit when you riding Woby but not be dropped off immediately once you got 1 hit.

More ideas is to make slowing effect has cooldown as additional adjustment after Woby has been updated.

 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Steorra said:

It's not to make Woby as a tank. It's just make you could suffer some hit when you riding Woby but not be dropped off immediately once you got 1 hit.

More ideas is to make slowing effect has cooldown as additional adjustment after Woby has been updated.

 

Your not dropped off immediately as is his bee allergy bypasses armor which is why you get bucked so quickly.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Your not dropped off immediately as is his bee allergy bypasses armor which is why you get bucked so quickly.

I prefer to encourage players to use slowing effect for limiting the bee army of Bee Queen fighting. But the slowing effect should not work for the whole battle, or should not work for boss target.

If you slowing those bee armies on correct timing then you're safe. If not you got punished and it's the downside of your character, accept it just like to accept Abby's death. (Ghastly Elixir should be remove)

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Steorra said:

I prefer to encourage players to use slowing effect for limiting the bee army of Bee Queen fighting. But the slowing effect should not work for the whole battle, or should not work for boss target.

 

If it doesn't work the whole battle his methods to cope would be removed which again leads him back to cheese.

[Steorra]

And additionally, I was suggested an ignition effect for Walter's ammo. It coyld be a potential choicesfor dealing with bee armies.

[Mysterious box]

It'd be like turning off abigial or souls midway through a fight 

Just now, Steorra said:

And additionally, I was suggested an ignition effect for Walter's ammo. It coyld be a potential choicesfor dealing with bee armies.

Which again would not work as the loot would burn.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

If it doesn't work the whole battle his methods to cope would be removed which again leads him back to cheese.

No? There's an example of the slowing adjustment:

New: create an AoE slowing area which makes small mobs trapped and get slower once they move in. The area keep 10 second.

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Which again would not work as the loot would burn.

This is not true. The original method to deal with bee queen is to use scale armor and it worked fine. It just a bit hard. But why Walter should not have a hard time when facing Bee Queen? It's fair enough according to most argument of downsides here.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

No? There's an example of the slowing adjustment:

New: create an AoE slowing area which makes small mobs trapped and get slower once they move in. The area keep 10 second.

This concept would only work for a throwing projectile not one from his slingshot as you couldn't easily control the area of effect with the slingshot's way of firing and it only lasting for 10 seconds would make the fight so much longer people would abandon it.

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This is not true. The original method to deal with bee queen is to use scale armor and it worked fine. It just a bit hard. But why Walter should not have a hard time when facing Bee Queen? It's fair enough according to most argument of downsides here.

So your saying if the bee queen dies to fire her drops will not burn?

Also for the average player he still does all it takes is one instance of the slow effects running out at the wrong time to end the fight sure even I've had a few close calls with it early on. What your asking for would be the equivalent of removing all Abigail's protections and giving you a block command that you need to time with boss attacks only.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

What your asking for would be the equivalent of removing all Abigail's protections and giving you a block command that you need to time with boss attacks only.

I don't mind if you think my example are reasonable or not. What troubled me is that Bee Queen should not be such easy to deal by Walter, and other bosses should not be such brainless to deal by Walter. You may give a better idea for fixing the problems if you have.

What we have now for Walter boss fighting is more like what the strongest version of the Lunar Abby 

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I don't mind if you think my example are reasonable or not. What troubled me is that Bee Queen should not be such easy to deal by Walter, and other bosses should not be such brainless to deal by Walter. You may give a better idea for fixing the problems if you have.

What we have now for Walter boss fighting is more like what the strongest version of the Lunar Abby 

In the case of Bee Queen I can't agree that since at bare minimum the player needs to clear the ruins to pull that strategy off and again a simple mistake results in a death in that situation.

As for slowdown rounds as a whole I don't think there's a complete solution to it. If you remove slowdown rounds Walter's fire rate needs to go up on average to compensate which would likely lead back to the same situation.

Adding punishments to gunpowder for example would simply make people avoid gunpowder afterall it's not even one of his better ammo types adding them to other skill tree ones would simply make them lean even harder on cursed rounds.

Making him slower at combat will simply lead him back to how he was pre skill tree it's kind of a paradox that doesn't have a clean solution.

16 minutes ago, Steorra said:

What we have now for Walter boss fighting is more like what the strongest version of the Lunar Abby 

Also this isn't a good comparsion as lunar abigial didn't need player interaction Walter does.