The direction of Wendy's skilltree, bug fix/nerf suggestion and a few words about Wendy mains.

[PanJakubPuchaty]

The Walter, Wortox and Wendy skilltree update has been a work in progress for over two months now and despite my recent break from dst, I ended up hearing quite a lot about it, primarily about Wendy. During my time playing this game (nearly 1.5k hours) I've picked Wendy many times, and let me tell you, she's really strong the way she is without her skilltree. Abigail is such an insanely useful companion and let's not forget how Wendy herself practically doesn't have any downsides (if you use her right that is). I've never really liked the concept of character skilltrees since they make already powerful survivors even stronger, consequently making the game feel too easy, although they do add new interesting mechanics which are fun to explore and exploit. I do however fear that Wendy's skilltree might end up practically breaking the game for one simple reason - the community.

After the most recent beta hotfix there has been a tsunami of hate comments by mostly chinese Wendy players (I'll be refering to them as "Wendy mains" from now on, so if she's your favourite character and you have nothing to do with the stuff I'm about to bring up, know that I'm not criticizing people for their preferences, but their actions) and oh boy, things really got out of control. Formentioned comments included rage over klei not implementing players' suggestions, cries of disbelief caused by the hotfix being a nerf, disappointment over the update taking a long time to release as well as literal wishes for developers' death. Have Wendy mains lost their minds? This much anger and negativity due to their favourite video game character's buffs getting less significant? Dear Klei, please, do not let those people's opinions guide your actions. Someone is always going to dislike your work. Take as much time as you need to make Wendy's skills strong enough not to be useless, while keeping them far from Wendy mains' sick expectations.

Speaking of ballancing the twins, I wanted to add one last thing to this post - a "nerf" suggestion. We all know how well Wendy pairs with a beefalo. The thing is, while riding a beefalo as Wendy and hitting a vexed enemy the beefalo gains Wendy's damage boost (54% iirc) instead of the usual 10%. It doesn't make that much sense to me since, for example, Wolfgang's damage boost does not apply to the beefalo. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature, but changing it would help lower Wendy's insane post-skilltree damage output.

[Dingle]

30 minutes ago, PanJakubPuchaty said:

Speaking of ballancing the twins, I wanted to add one last thing to this post - a "nerf" suggestion. We all know how well Wendy pairs with a beefalo. The thing is, while riding a beefalo as Wendy and hitting a vexed enemy the beefalo gains Wendy's damage boost (54% iirc) instead of the usual 10%. It doesn't make that much sense to me since, for example, Wolfgang's damage boost does not apply to the beefalo. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature, but changing it would help lower Wendy's insane post-skilltree damage output.

It's even worse on a Beefalo, but it's nearly as bad on-foot. She hits for over 100 with a Dark Sword and Cursed Vex, off top of head.

[Y0sH]

36 minutes ago, PanJakubPuchaty said:

The Walter, Wortox and Wendy skilltree update has been a work in progress for over two months now and despite my recent break from dst, I ended up hearing quite a lot about it, primarily about Wendy. During my time playing this game (nearly 1.5k hours) I've picked Wendy many times, and let me tell you, she's really strong the way she is without her skilltree. Abigail is such an insanely useful companion and let's not forget how Wendy herself practically doesn't have any downsides (if you use her right that is). I've never really liked the concept of character skilltrees since they make already powerful survivors even stronger, consequently making the game feel too easy, although they do add new interesting mechanics which are fun to explore and exploit. I do however fear that Wendy's skilltree might end up practically breaking the game for one simple reason - the community.

After the most recent beta hotfix there has been a tsunami of hate comments by mostly chinese Wendy players (I'll be refering to them as "Wendy mains" from now on, so if she's your favourite character and you have nothing to do with the stuff I'm about to bring up, know that I'm not criticizing people for their preferences, but their actions) and oh boy, things really got out of control. Formentioned comments included rage over klei not implementing players' suggestions, cries of disbelief caused by the hotfix being a nerf, disappointment over the update taking a long time to release as well as literal wishes for developers' death. Have Wendy mains lost their minds? This much anger and negativity due to their favourite video game character's buffs getting less significant? Dear Klei, please, do not let those people's opinions guide your actions. Someone is always going to dislike your work. Take as much time as you need to make Wendy's skills strong enough not to be useless, while keeping them far from Wendy mains' sick expectations.

Speaking of ballancing the twins, I wanted to add one last thing to this post - a "nerf" suggestion. We all know how well Wendy pairs with a beefalo. The thing is, while riding a beefalo as Wendy and hitting a vexed enemy the beefalo gains Wendy's damage boost (54% iirc) instead of the usual 10%. It doesn't make that much sense to me since, for example, Wolfgang's damage boost does not apply to the beefalo. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature, but changing it would help lower Wendy's insane post-skilltree damage output.

We don't mention W̶e̶n̶d̶y̶ balancing in any negative light here anymore because of how visceral the reaction will be. Hopefully this post doesn't get bombarded of those same people you were referring to. Godspeed brother lol.

[DegenerateFurry]

Let's not nerf people who're not using a perk because of a perk existing. If you want to nerf beefalo's interaction with Cursed Vex, nerf Cursed Vex to specifically not apply to beefalo, not Abigail's buff in general.

[yuntunhemudu]

6 hours ago, PanJakubPuchaty said:

The Walter, Wortox and Wendy skilltree update has been a work in progress for over two months now and despite my recent break from dst, I ended up hearing quite a lot about it, primarily about Wendy. During my time playing this game (nearly 1.5k hours) I've picked Wendy many times, and let me tell you, she's really strong the way she is without her skilltree. Abigail is such an insanely useful companion and let's not forget how Wendy herself practically doesn't have any downsides (if you use her right that is). I've never really liked the concept of character skilltrees since they make already powerful survivors even stronger, consequently making the game feel too easy, although they do add new interesting mechanics which are fun to explore and exploit. I do however fear that Wendy's skilltree might end up practically breaking the game for one simple reason - the community.

After the most recent beta hotfix there has been a tsunami of hate comments by mostly chinese Wendy players (I'll be refering to them as "Wendy mains" from now on, so if she's your favourite character and you have nothing to do with the stuff I'm about to bring up, know that I'm not criticizing people for their preferences, but their actions) and oh boy, things really got out of control. Formentioned comments included rage over klei not implementing players' suggestions, cries of disbelief caused by the hotfix being a nerf, disappointment over the update taking a long time to release as well as literal wishes for developers' death. Have Wendy mains lost their minds? This much anger and negativity due to their favourite video game character's buffs getting less significant? Dear Klei, please, do not let those people's opinions guide your actions. Someone is always going to dislike your work. Take as much time as you need to make Wendy's skills strong enough not to be useless, while keeping them far from Wendy mains' sick expectations.

Speaking of ballancing the twins, I wanted to add one last thing to this post - a "nerf" suggestion. We all know how well Wendy pairs with a beefalo. The thing is, while riding a beefalo as Wendy and hitting a vexed enemy the beefalo gains Wendy's damage boost (54% iirc) instead of the usual 10%. It doesn't make that much sense to me since, for example, Wolfgang's damage boost does not apply to the beefalo. Not sure if that's a bug or a feature, but changing it would help lower Wendy's insane post-skilltree damage output.

I am somewhat opposite to you, I fell in love with DST because of the skill tree. My gaming skills are somewhat poor, even though I spent 1700 hours on DST, I often struggle to handle Dragonfly well. So what you said about Wendy having no flaws is a bit offensive to me, but there's no need to pay too much attention to it. People on the forum are already very emotional now, and I don't want to add fuel to the fire. The fact is, the skill tree does give some low-level gamers a chance not to leave DST because it is too challenging (for example, beginners find it difficult to get through the first winter, and if they play as Willow and ignite an artificial dwarf star, the situation will be much better). Of course, there are also many problems with the skill tree, which we have discussed before. I will only point out one point directly: sometimes the skill tree makes the unique skills that old players have painstakingly obtained appear cheap.

However, dissatisfaction with the skill tree should not transform into dissatisfaction with Wendy's skill tree, as this abrupt shift is unreasonable.

Chinese Wendy players Post like that because they have never had the concept of "zero-sum game", and they have been taught win-win thinking since childhood. Zero-sum game here refers to: if Wendy receives more attention, Walter and Wortox will receive less attention, Wendy wins, and Walter and Wortox completely lose. Win-win thinking refers to: I can get Wendy more attention, but I won't stop Walter and Wortox from getting attention. If you haven't played Walter and Wortox, you shouldn't make any Nerfs on them. If there is a plan to strengthen Wendy while also strengthening Walter and Wortox, then go ahead and push for it.

Differences in thinking have led to many misunderstandings, Walter and Wortox players feel that Walter and Wortox have been deliberately ignored, but in reality, it's not Wendy players who intentionally ignored Walter and Wortox. They just kept silent about things they didn't know. The failure of some emotional Chinese players to promote a win-win situation is also an important reason for the deterioration of the situation. Their excessive posts objectively overwhelmed Walter and Wortox's posts.

I have nothing to say about Beefalo's Nerfs, my gaming skills are so poor that I cannot have a Beefalo. But this kind of suggestion that makes everyone lose, you know one thing.

 

我和你有些相反，我因为技能树而喜欢上了DST。我的游戏水平有些差，尽管在DST上花了1700 h，但很多时候处理龙蝇都处理不好。因此你所说的温蒂没有任何缺点对我来说是有些冒犯的，不过无需太在意这些，现在论坛上人们已经很情绪化了，我不想火上浇油。事实是，技能树确实给一些低水平的游戏玩家了机会，让他们不会因为DST太具有挑战性而离开DST（例如，新手很难度过第一个冬天，如果他们扮演薇洛，点燃一颗人工矮星，情况就会好得多）。当然，技能树也存在很多问题，大家也讨论过了，我只直白地指出一点：有时候技能树让老玩家费劲心思才获取的独特技巧显得廉价。

尽管如此，对技能树的不满不应该转变成对温蒂技能树的不满，这种突兀的转变是毫无道理的。

中国温蒂玩家那样发声是因为他们从来没有“零和博弈”这个概念，他们从小接受的就是双赢思维教育。零和博弈在这里是指：如果给了温蒂更多的关注，Walter和 Wortox就会得到更少的关注，温蒂赢了，Walter和 Wortox彻底输了。双赢思维是指：我可以让温蒂得到更多的关注，但我不会阻止Walter和 Wortox得到关注，没玩过Walter和 Wortox，就不应当发表任何Nefrfs他们的言论。如果有方案能加强温蒂的同时也加强Walter和 Wortox，那就去推动它。

思维的差异带来了很多误解， Walter和 Wortox玩家觉得Walter和 Wortox受到了刻意的冷落，但实际上不是温蒂玩家刻意冷落Walter和 Wortox，他们只是对自己不知道的东西保持沉默。部分情绪化的中国玩家没能有意识地推动双赢局面也是情况恶化的重要原因，他们发的过量帖子客观上淹没了Walter和 Wortox的帖子。

对于牛牛的Nerfs我没有什么好说的，我的游戏水平差到让我无法拥有一头牛。但这种让大家都输的建议，有一点，你知道的。

[PanJakubPuchaty]

5 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Let's not nerf people who're not using a perk because of a perk existing. If you want to nerf beefalo's interaction with Cursed Vex, nerf Cursed Vex to specifically not apply to beefalo, not Abigail's buff in general.

Yeah, that was the idea. To make the beefalo deal +10% damage instead of around +50%.

6 hours ago, Y0sH said:

We don't mention W̶e̶n̶d̶y̶ balancing in any negative light here anymore because of how visceral the reaction will be. Hopefully this post doesn't get bombarded of those same people you were referring to. Godspeed brother lol.

Chat am I cooked?

[DaDa_waw]

If you have played Willow, you will know that Willow can make cows ignore flame damage and even deal damage to enemies when ignited. If you have played Warly, you will know that it allows cows to enjoy the power of chili, garlic, and lightning. Unfortunately, you may not be paying attention to it. Your behavior of deliberately blaming the collaborative benefits brought by character traits alone is actually erasing the creativity of the game. Creativity should not be intentionally restricted, as restricting creativity is not beneficial for the game.

And most importantly, don't blame the players for KLei's mistakes. No one proposes to make the game more boring. Your behavior of pushing the impact of KLei's unfinished work onto players will only make people feel that you have never truly considered the player's position. You are standing on the opposite side to condemn the player, and this motivation is unacceptable from the beginning.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, DaDa_waw said:

 If you have played Warly, you will know that it allows cows to enjoy the power of chili, garlic, and lightning.

Actually, you have to feed the beefalo something spiced with chili or garlic for it to get those buffs (usually a steamed twigs). Only volt goat jelly's electrification transfers from Warly to the beefalo. 

Not debating anything, just a fun Warly fact!

[DaDa_waw]

14 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Actually, you have to feed the beefalo something spiced with chili or garlic for it to get those buffs (usually a steamed twigs). Only volt goat jelly's electrification transfers from Warly to the beefalo.

Not debating anything, just a fun Warly fact!

Yes, that's what I mean. I personally love this kind of synergy effect, which is a manifestation of creativity. Using the excuse of weakening to correct it cannot bring anything that makes people happy.

[Siren11]

Beefalo are a huge liability. They take a long time to tame, do less damage than the average character with a dark sword, and have less health than characters who are wearing armor. They are also weak to knockback, making them a bad choice for late game. Unless you’re just using a Beefalo for speed, there’s no reason to ever tame one outside of interesting character interactions, like Abigail’s vex and Warly’s volt goat jelly. Please don’t punish players who take advantage of this. It only hurts them, and makes no difference to players who don’t tame Beefalo.

(Making it so Beefalo don’t work with Cursed Vex specifically would probably be fine though. I can’t test it, but it seems like it honestly might be too strong.)

[PanJakubPuchaty]

14 hours ago, Siren11 said:

Beefalo are a huge liability. They take a long time to tame, do less damage than the average character with a dark sword, and have less health than characters who are wearing armor. They are also weak to knockback, making them a bad choice for late game. Unless you’re just using a Beefalo for speed, there’s no reason to ever tame one outside of interesting character interactions, like Abigail’s vex and Warly’s volt goat jelly. Please don’t punish players who take advantage of this. It only hurts them, and makes no difference to players who don’t tame Beefalo.

My guy, you are sooo wrong. Beefalos are a liability? They provide you with a massive speed boost from as early as day 1-3, infinite* 100% armor against nearly all mobs and an infinite weapon dealing 50 damage when you tame an ornery beefalo. All that at the cost of draining your twig supply for 20-25 days. Beefalos are OP.

*As long as you're not tanking bosses. If your beefalo ever dies, that's a skill issue.

[RexySeven]

14 hours ago, Siren11 said:

Beefalo are a huge liability. They take a long time to tame, do less damage than the average character with a dark sword, and have less health than characters who are wearing armor. They are also weak to knockback, making them a bad choice for late game. Unless you’re just using a Beefalo for speed, there’s no reason to ever tame one outside of interesting character interactions

This might be the worst DST take, maybe ever.

 

[Siren11]

6 hours ago, PanJakubPuchaty said:

My guy, you are sooo wrong. Beefalos are a liability? They provide you with a massive speed boost from as early as day 1-3, infinite* 100% armor against nearly all mobs and an infinite weapon dealing 50 damage when you tame an ornery beefalo. All that at the cost of draining your twig supply for 20-25 days. Beefalos are OP.

*As long as you're not tanking bosses. If your beefalo ever dies, that's a skill issue.

I tame Beefalo often. I mentioned the speed boost. It’s the best part of Beefalo taming. The infinite armor and weapon you get from an Ornery is very nice too, but it’s not that hard to get infinite armor, and weapons and healing are easy to obtain. I’m definitely not advocating for buffing Beefalo (I think they’re just about perfect), but a lot of their fun and usefulness comes from unique character interactions.

Beefalo are a liability (at least for me) because, in addition to what I already said, I’m always worrying about them, and I’m not so good that I can do everything I need to do, do everything for all my friends, and tame a Beefalo simultaneously. They’re often in the way. And now that I’ve seen how an average player tames and uses a Beefalo, I’m more convinced that they can cause more problems than they solve. I’ve even seen way better players than me lose their Beefalo, especially when knockback is involved.

Even if you don’t personally view Beefalo as a liability, everything else I said is true (except whether you have a reason to tame one for anything besides speed as most characters—that’s subjective).

 

[YouKnowWho142]

6 hours ago, PanJakubPuchaty said:

My guy, you are sooo wrong. Beefalos are a liability? They provide you with a massive speed boost from as early as day 1-3, infinite* 100% armor against nearly all mobs and an infinite weapon dealing 50 damage when you tame an ornery beefalo. All that at the cost of draining your twig supply for 20-25 days. Beefalos are OP.

*As long as you're not tanking bosses. If your beefalo ever dies, that's a skill issue.

As a benefit of the doubt, and as reinforced above, it seems more like an issue of convenience rather than beefalo being underpowered (which they certainly are not). I personally rarely tame beefalo even in solo and never tame them when im playing with friends since I personally dislike micromanaging them and find that they trivialize certain aspects of the game and especially some characters, but to keep everything on topic overall I think that Wendy's interaction with beefalo should be evaluated since it's definitely a bit much and I highly doubt it's entirely intentional

[Siren11]

13 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

As a benefit of the doubt, and as reinforced above, it seems more like an issue of convenience rather than beefalo being underpowered (which they certainly are not). I personally rarely tame beefalo even in solo and never tame them when im playing with friends since I personally dislike micromanaging them and find that they trivialize certain aspects of the game and especially some characters, but to keep everything on topic overall I think that Wendy's interaction with beefalo should be evaluated since it's definitely a bit much and I highly doubt it's entirely intentional

YES. Convenience. I wasn’t trying to say Beefalo are underpowered. I didn’t realize so many people would misunderstand my point.

I still wouldn’t want to remove the Wendy’s Beefalo interaction. It’s fun for the people who use it, and doesn’t hurt anyone who doesn’t use it. A lot of the other interesting character interactions would probably need to be looked at as well, and removing all of them would definitely ruin Beefalo taming for me.

[Mike23Ua]

On 1/26/2025 at 5:58 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

Let's not nerf people who're not using a perk because of a perk existing. If you want to nerf beefalo's interaction with Cursed Vex, nerf Cursed Vex to specifically not apply to beefalo, not Abigail's buff in general.

This isn’t the solution, Cursed Vex applies Debuff to the enemy Abigail is currently attacking (I thought this was called Petal Debuff Bestowment?) If Wendy is mounted to a Beefalo, and also attacking what Abigail is Attacking: The buff should apply, because Abby is doing here job of applying Debuff to the target she attacks.

That said: Klei could drastically Nerf its UTILITY by instead of making it a completely free Debuffing effect to whatever Abigail attacks, This Buff now only applies to what you command Abigail to attack/Haunt.

This is a Fair and Balanced Nerf- Because if you want to make your Beefalos attack deal more damage you command Abby to haunt the Beefalo your riding on (thus giving it temporary boost in supernatural strength & still a clever way to apply the “Weakness Debuff” to the enemy with it now requiring more actual input and effort from the Wendy player besides being AFK simulator….)

This suggestion is ON PAR With Willows two Ember Skills, the one that she temporarily buffs herself to deal extra damage to targets that are on fire, and her Spontaneous Combustion that sets said enemies on fire.

But Klei: Honestly refuses to listen to nerf ideas and suggestions for Wendy cause I guess…. They don’t wanna stir up a hornets nest of angry players who want more broken buffs on her? *shrugs*

[Steorra]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But Klei: Honestly refuses to listen to nerf ideas and suggestions for Wendy

They did nerfed Lunar Abby in the latest patch by two changes, one is a bug, but another is intended.

No need to say sisturn III

[PanJakubPuchaty]

13 hours ago, Siren11 said:

YES. Convenience. I wasn’t trying to say Beefalo are underpowered. I didn’t realize so many people would misunderstand my point.

Alright, sorry then. Everything you said after your first sentence made me think you believe beefalos not to be worth taming outside of specific circumstances. Now, about those taming difficulties, sure, it does put some extra stress on the player but the payoff is well worth it.

[Thieta]

Why is there a **Need** to nerf an interaction that is optional since it requires a beef, of which the majority of player's won't bother with taming a beefalo anyway... So waiting 30ingame days and spending a lot of time/resources taming a beefalo, Alongside beating ancient fuelweaver previously, And beating nightmare werepig for the ancient horror just so you can make a single vex elixir to do more dmg with the beefalo... Should be nerfed... Meanwhile warly's volt jelly, Which probably does similar dmg (I am not gonna find out exact numbers rn) is available from day 1, Has no need to defeat an endgame boss previously, Doesn't need boss mats to craft, AND is more readily accessible and available... Shouldn't... be nerfed... ? Do ya'll hear yourselves rn?

[Soul7k]

I don't think there is a need to nerf an interaction that has been in the game forever just because. It is a good way to tilt everyone who has been using it this whole time which would be similar to the time when they tried to make Winona catapults only usable by her.

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Thieta said:

Meanwhile warly's volt jelly, Which probably does similar dmg (I am not gonna find out exact numbers rn) is available from day 1, Has no need to defeat an endgame boss previously, Doesn't need boss mats to craft, AND is more readily accessible and available...

You're severely overstating volt horn availability (25% drop rate). Target needs to be wet for full effect. No second set of AoE damage. It's also the only thing Warly actually has going for him.

[Dingle]

34 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You're severely overstating volt horn availability (25% drop rate). Target needs to be wet for full effect. No second set of AoE damage. It's also the only thing Warly actually has going for him.

You're leaving out the chili flakes part.

And the parts where it lasts a short amount of time, so you have to keep making chaud froid.

There's more to it too, but to summarize, its a ridiculous comparison.

[DaDa_waw]

57 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You're severely overstating volt horn availability (25% drop rate). Target needs to be wet for full effect. No second set of AoE damage. It's also the only thing Warly actually has going for him.

Perhaps the most overlooked aspect is that some members of the forum discussion lack the ability to create or even learn from the sheep horn factory, and overlook the 1.5 attack rate that everyone can obtain before the crack opens, as well as the ability of Telelocator Staff to increase rain and dew values.
In short, the core issue is that they both have coordination.They are also very good, encouraging players to combine their abilities to do things that are not necessary. Since there is no reason to weaken sheep horn jelly, there is naturally no reason to weaken something similar.To put it more broadly, hitting a cow is a normal non player damage, but players can earn the cow a player tag. The cost of this is that you ride on it, do you also plan to weaken it?

[Dingle]

The horn anenemy farm doesn't make infinite horns per game year.

This also leaves out how Wendy can also use Voltgoat Jelly, while on a Beefalo. It's not Warly exclusive. He can make it for other characters.

Warly can't get Wendy's Beefalo hex bonus, however.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, DaDa_waw said:

Perhaps the most overlooked aspect is that some members of the forum discussion lack the ability to create or even learn from the sheep horn factory, and overlook the 1.5 attack rate that everyone can obtain before the crack opens, as well as the ability of Telelocator Staff to increase rain and dew values.
In short, the core issue is that they both have coordination.They are also very good, encouraging players to combine their abilities to do things that are not necessary. Since there is no reason to weaken sheep horn jelly, there is naturally no reason to weaken something similar.To put it more broadly, hitting a cow is a normal non player damage, but players can earn the cow a player tag. The cost of this is that you ride on it, do you also plan to weaken it?

Wendy gets her own special vex multiplier (higher than she shares with others), which is free. Cursed Vexation increases the multiplier beyond Wolfgang. If you gathered the Warly foods, then she pulls even further ahead because every little bit compounds on top of everything else.

Looks like it's: Wendy 6.72x; Wolfgang 6x; Warly 3x?

Wendy gets 5.04x even without Cursed Vexation. Clearly better than Warly, when he's doing all the work.

Edit: And lest we forget all the extra shadow Abi damage on top of that.