General thoughts on how to improve Walter's play rate with his Skill Tree

[Dyzrespect]

TL;DR: Bold and red text

My main character, at least when rushing in public servers, is Walter, but that is purely because I view it as a challenge far harder than Wes, and I just have a few notes on what his tree needs to address if the design goal stated in the Rhymes with Play stream is to be achieved: (paraphrasing) 'We want more people to play Walter.' His tree adds some interesting things as is, but right now I don't think any of the additions will help with this goal almost at all. Keep in mind this post is primarily focused around getting more people to play Walter, and not necessarily retaining his current masochistic difficulty (which I personally enjoy).

So what are Walter's biggest issues/why is he unpopular to play?
In my opinion it's pretty simple, he is by far the hardest character in the game to play, more so than Wes. That may seem like a hot take from an outside perspective, but if you've played Walter for any amount of time you probably agree. So why is this?:

1. One hit can and usually does lead down a snowballing death spiral, especially early on. (For new Walter players)
2. Despite having theoretically the strongest and most game breaking mechanic imaginable, his ranged combat is at best a gimmick and is in no situation is an actual advantage over melee.
3. Woby is purely a liability if not solely used as a 2nd chester, and always worse than an actual beefalo.

There are many other issues and negative quirks with Walter (eg. very weak campfire stories that almost rarely even have time to even finish, and other fun and thematic but lackluster 'flavor' ablities like sanity from treehugging, etc) but these are the main things that make him underplayed.

Point 1: This is hands down the biggest issue for new players or players new to Walter trying him out, but it still persists for Walter veterans and also into the mid to late game. Simply put, taking Health and Sanity damage from every makes him arguably the worst character for melee combat, next to unmounted Wendy and Wes, meaning just like them he just wants to use a beefalo, but even moreso as the beefalo will completely counteract his downside. Even if ranged combat becomes viable, this mechanic will still destroy new players of Walter and probably make them never play him again after the first horrendous experience. Implement ways to negate his sanity loss downside more effectively, or perhaps even nerf/remove the passive sanity drain from being injured. I personally would be sad to just see this mechanic nerfed/removed, but it is truly what makes Walter the most punishing character to play. It is a fun mechanic to play around in combat, but the gradual snowball aspects of Walter's drawback almost completely halt any new players from wanting to or being able to play him. If getting stung by a bee day 1 leads to you fighting terrorbeaks and dying day 2, Walter's play numbers probably won't improve. The passive sanity drain almost does nothing when you have healing items later on, and functionally only serves to make early game accidents or pinch situations miserable to play out. 

Point 2: Outside of team bossfights, his slingshot is at best a slower and cheesier alternative to melee, so it is neither convenient nor more practical (esp if compared to Wanda's Watch or Abigail). Ranged combat viability should hopefully be resolved with what is already currently in the beta, especially the extra ammo crafting/capacity and attack speed, but I want to note that for the (likely) vast majority of people who don't cheat to unlock the tree who will try Walter, they will still have to survive as base Walter for 160(?) days to unlock his tree to bring his slingshot online, and no buffs to his slingshot will really help with what already keeps people off of Walter as is.

Point 3: There is a lot to unpack about Woby and beefalo in general, but that is more than I will discuss in this post. Giving Walter a free beefalo-chester, on paper, is just OP as giving him ranged combat, but similarly, the ridable Big Woby is also wholly a gimmick that is NEVER useful. Realistically, Walter wants an actual beefalo to take his damage for him to negate his downside, both for melee and for his ranged combat styles, so using Woby as a beefalo even day 1 is a negative, as it both costs you monster meat and time spent riding/taming an actual beefalo. This is before we even get to how dangerous riding Woby is. I'll give a few examples:

- Getting bucked off of Woby from a cheap shot from a merm/tentacle and instantly dying.
- Big Woby constantly triggering dangling depth dwellers on her own as you try to navigate the village/labyrinth. (Or riding her and getting knocked off by a shadow splumonkey/bishop and dying)
- Woby shrinking and bucking you off when you're freezing/overheating or somewhere dangerous
- Getting bucked off by Woby in any boss fight is usually certain death

Sure a lot of those can be chalked up to "skill issue" but when you're playing these things will occasionally happen and almost always kill you or set you way back, and moreover, are far less punishing events or non issues with an actual beefalo, never mind that Woby doesn't even take the damage for you like a Beefalo does. So IMO, at minimum, Woby needs to be trainable up to the point of becoming equal to a beefalo or better for Walter. If there was some payoff to training Woby, comparable to just taming a regular beefalo, Walter would feel SO much more rewarding. Woby being a coward is a wonderful side of her character, and that should be kept intact, but having Walter take the damage and get bucked off just will always make her worse than a regular beefalo. Also having Big Woby not be a literal death trap early on would help, maybe just remove the bucking and have her shrink after taking too much damage, or have the bucking animation be quicker/smoother but have Woby flee from Walter for the rest of the fight, I don't know, but as is, at best, she is worse than a beefalo, and her riding badges as they are don't really change that imo.

My overall conclusion is that fixing Walter in a sense of making him more approachable will be difficult to achieve with just the Skill Tree format alone, but it is doable. However fixing Walter as a character with satisfying payoffs is very very doable if effort is put into the right sectors when designing his tree. I also think everyone would be happy to see some of Walter's flavorful gimmicks become more useful such as his tree hugging sanity, campfire stories, and personal tent, so I hope some expense can be spared there as well (maybe give Woby a badge to help gather/dig up grass and twigs to help set up camp quicker!). Thanks for reading.

[Chewabacca]

No offense, but have you played the beta as Walter at all? Pretty much all of these comments are obsolete. I will also say that the stereotype about one hit -> death is not really accurate. The only times a single hit has been enough to send me into insanity are the hits that had me on the brink of death already.

[Dyzrespect]

43 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

No offense, but have you played the beta as Walter at all? Pretty much all of these comments are obsolete. I will also say that the stereotype about one hit -> death is not really accurate. The only times a single hit has been enough to send me into insanity are the hits that had me on the brink of death already.

Yes, and in what way does the beta impact anything in the post. The beta does not impact Walter's sanity drawback, I already addressed that his beta changes for the slingshot address a big issue, and Woby still doesn't take damage for Walter, even if he lasts longer before being bucked off (something still not even an issue with a normal beefalo). No offense, but have you read the post at all?

I also made it pretty clear even in the TL;DR that the snowballing effect mainly impacts new players of Walter.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

51 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

No offense, but have you played the beta as Walter at all? Pretty much all of these comments are obsolete. I will also say that the stereotype about one hit -> death is not really accurate. The only times a single hit has been enough to send me into insanity are the hits that had me on the brink of death already.

Based on the language used in their post, it seems like they have. I wouldn't dismiss this, as there's plenty of valid criticism here.

For #1, I personally didn't have this issue as a veteran when picking up Walter during the beta, but it's absolutely an issue for newer players, and we should care about that. I've seen people suggest an upgrade to the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat that actually provides armor, and that could be something consider for accessibility. The biggest problem with his downside is getting bopped when unarmored by unexpected hits, and, let's be honest, a lot of people will do whatever they can to rely on head armor and keep their backpack on for non-boss combat, but the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat doesn't allow you to do that as it stands. I'm wondering if that's a notable contributor to the issue.

#2, as you've stated, is pretty resolved by the skill tree itself. I'm not really sure what can be done to make it more bearable while waiting for Insight points, but to be fair, he's also not the only character with this issue (specifically Willow, oof.) I don't really have any well-thought solutions. But if the slingshot upgrade tree gets condensed, and/or the ammo crafting skill requirements are lowered, I think this could be a bit less of an issue. I just have no idea what is even going on with Walter's skill tree format right now. He got literally nothing in the last update, so I have nothing to really go off of here.

#3, yeah, Big Woby still has some issues. I actually forced myself to use her for combat until WAY later on in my playthrough, and I gotta say, Marble Armor is kinda gamebreaking as Walter with Woby. I didn't have too many close calls with getting bucked off due to damage thanks to its ridiculous damage reduction. The level 1 Bravery skill is quite useful for this, and I'd swap to level 1 Support whenever I didn't feel like I needed it. My biggest complaints were about her hunger mechanic, as you highlighted. I hate that the speed scales to the hunger, it's obnoxious to upkeep, and we didn't get any good solutions for it in this skill tree. I really wish she got something to increase her hunger cap, and a better way to feed her without Monster Meat's crappy spoilage without drying it, which is a bit of a heavy investment early on. Actually, come to think of it, I kinda wish she'd just eat monster foods I keep stored in her on her own at 34 hunger. It probably would have nearly halved the amount of times I've said "ughhh, Woby whyyyyy..." while playing Walter. It would be nice if there were a greater amount of reward for using her over a Beefalo, though I honestly think something that resolves that should be directly implemented into his base kit and not the skill tree. I think it would be nice if she had a special ability to set her apart regardless of your skills, like a back step or something, or, like, a charge for fast linear movement. She's nice as an option for passive sanity healing with the Enlightened Crown + the fastest mount speed, but that's really the only combination of things she offers as a mount, long-term, which isn't always worth the risk involved with riding her. I wish I had some better ideas on how to fix her as a mount, but a good solution to hunger upkeep would be a good start, as the accessibility is a huge roadblock, I found.

[Dyzrespect]

2 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Based on the language used in their post, it seems like they have. I wouldn't dismiss this, as there's plenty of valid criticism here.

For #1, I personally didn't have this issue as a veteran when picking up Walter during the beta, but it's absolutely an issue for newer players, and we should care about that. I've seen people suggest an upgrade to the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat that actually provides armor, and that could be something consider for accessibility. The biggest problem with his downside is getting bopped when unarmored by unexpected hits, and, let's be honest, a lot of people will do whatever they can to rely on head armor and keep their backpack on for non-boss combat, but the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat doesn't allow you to do that as it stands. I'm wondering if that's a notable contributor to the issue.

#2, as you've stated, is pretty resolved by the skill tree itself. I'm not really sure what can be done to make it more bearable while waiting for Insight points, but to be fair, he's also not the only character with this issue (specifically Willow, oof.) I don't really have any well-thought solutions. But if the slingshot upgrade tree gets condensed, and/or the ammo crafting skill requirements are lowered, I think this could be a bit less of an issue. I just have no idea what is even going on with Walter's skill tree format right now. He got literally nothing in the last update, so I have nothing to really go off of here.

#3, yeah, Big Woby still has some issues. I actually forced myself to use her for combat until WAY later on in my playthrough, and I gotta say, Marble Armor is kinda gamebreaking as Walter with Woby. I didn't have too many close calls with getting bucked off due to damage thanks to its ridiculous damage reduction. The level 1 Bravery skill is quite useful for this, and I'd swap to level 1 Support whenever I didn't feel like I needed it. My biggest complaints were about her hunger mechanic, as you highlighted. I hate that the speed scales to the hunger, it's obnoxious to upkeep, and we didn't get any good solutions for it in this skill tree. I really wish she got something to increase her hunger cap, and a better way to feed her without Monster Meat's crappy spoilage without drying it, which is a bit of a heavy investment early on. Actually, come to think of it, I kinda wish she'd just eat monster foods I keep stored in her on her own at 34 hunger. It probably would have nearly halved the amount of times I've said "ughhh, Woby whyyyyy..." while playing Walter. It would be nice if there were a greater amount of reward for using her over a Beefalo, though I honestly think something that resolves that should be directly implemented into his base kit and not the skill tree. She's nice as an option for passive sanity healing with the Enlightened Crown + the fastest mount speed, but that's really the only combination of things she offers as a mount, long-term, which isn't always worth the risk involved with riding her. I wish I had some better ideas on how to fix her as a mount, but a good solution to hunger upkeep would be a good start, as the accessibility is a huge roadblock, I found.

Yeah in general I don't think skill trees are a great medium for delivering updates to underwhelming characters, which ironically has become a cascading effect of almost every character who doesn't yet have a skill tree. Also it's pretty inconsistent and wonky being able to respec your points by rerolling with the portal... such as Wurt basically getting 6-9 free points by assembling her buildings/king upgrades then respeccing, while seemingly Walter and others will not be able to spec out of say ammo after crafting it if he wants to use it. Kind of a sloppy system all around but it is exciting and flavorful so I don't mind too much in the end if the character is fun in the end.

Selfishly I'm hoping for a middle ground ending where Walter is still hilariously punishing but can also be powerful and rewarding when played well. It was specifically the mention during Rhymes with Play of Walter's playrate impacting how they update him in the future that is driving this post. And yeah your mention about the Pinetree hat is massive, it's always been in the back of my mind but I chalked it down to my greed of not wanting to use chest armor (and when I do actually fight on Woby, I'm 100% kiting or safespotting). Given the bullet points on what they want to add for Walter, I have faith they will make something fun and interesting for him. Making him a solid gatherer/boy scout so he can rush setting up Drying Racks will give him nice group utility and a clear path to a sustainable game plan.

[WeWoWa]

28 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

 

#2, as you've stated, is pretty resolved by the skill tree itself. I'm not really sure what can be done to make it more bearable while waiting for Insight points, but to be fair, he's also not the only character with this issue (specifically Willow, oof.) I don't really have any well-thought solutions. 

 

I don’t play Walter, so I’m not going to argue in a discussion about him, but I wanted to ask why you mentioned Willow in parentheses. You wrote that Willow is weak without Insight points, but I don’t really understand the point of that argument because every character has the same waiting time for Insight points. The fact that Willow is an average character without a skill tree was fixed by the Skill Tree.

It seems to me that the author meant that with Walter, you need to gather materials for ammo and upgrade the slingshot, while with Willow, all you need to do is find bees or other small creatures, and you already have everything you need. So no, Willow does not suffer from the same problem as Walter.

Edit:Ah, and you only need to max out the skill tree once to have it permanently, so Willow can be incredibly strong from day one.

16 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Yeah in general I don't think skill trees are a great medium for delivering updates to underwhelming characters, which ironically has become a cascading effect of almost every character who doesn't yet have a skill tree. Also it's pretty inconsistent and wonky being able to respec your points by rerolling with the portal... such as Wurt basically getting 6-9 free points by assembling her buildings/king upgrades then respeccing, while seemingly Walter and others will not be able to spec out of say ammo after crafting it if he wants to use it. Kind of a sloppy system all around but it is exciting and flavorful so I don't mind too much in the end if the character is fun in the end.

Selfishly I'm hoping for a middle ground ending where Walter is still hilariously punishing but can also be powerful and rewarding when played well. It was specifically the mention during Rhymes with Play of Walter's playrate impacting how they update him in the future that is driving this post. And yeah your mention about the Pinetree hat is massive, it's always been in the back of my mind but I chalked it down to my greed of not wanting to use chest armor (and when I do actually fight on Woby, I'm 100% kiting or safespotting). Given the bullet points on what they want to add for Walter, I have faith they will make something fun and interesting for him. Making him a solid gatherer/boy scout so he can rush setting up Drying Racks will give him nice group utility and a clear path to a sustainable game plan.

You say that you selfishly want Walter to remain a weak character so you can have a challenge. But have you considered simply not using his skill tree when it’s released? You know, no one is going to force you to use it if you want a challenge, and every skill tree should be designed to strengthen the character, not to leave them at the same level they were before.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

55 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Yeah in general I don't think skill trees are a great medium for delivering updates to underwhelming characters, which ironically has become a cascading effect of almost every character who doesn't yet have a skill tree. Also it's pretty inconsistent and wonky being able to respec your points by rerolling with the portal... such as Wurt basically getting 6-9 free points by assembling her buildings/king upgrades then respeccing, while seemingly Walter and others will not be able to spec out of say ammo after crafting it if he wants to use it. Kind of a sloppy system all around but it is exciting and flavorful so I don't mind too much in the end if the character is fun in the end.

Selfishly I'm hoping for a middle ground ending where Walter is still hilariously punishing but can also be powerful and rewarding when played well. It was specifically the mention during Rhymes with Play of Walter's playrate impacting how they update him in the future that is driving this post. And yeah your mention about the Pinetree hat is massive, it's always been in the back of my mind but I chalked it down to my greed of not wanting to use chest armor (and when I do actually fight on Woby, I'm 100% kiting or safespotting). Given the bullet points on what they want to add for Walter, I have faith they will make something fun and interesting for him. Making him a solid gatherer/boy scout so he can rush setting up Drying Racks will give him nice group utility and a clear path to a sustainable game plan.

To be honest, I'm not really sure why the Insight points aren't just given to you automatically, or, at the very least, 5-ish automatic points to get you started. The playtime requirement is kinda pointless, as long as the player knows of the existence of the console and c_skip(160), or uses that one mod, but it's strange to me that we have two really easy workarounds for it that are just not particularly obvious to newer players. It just feels like it ends up being a weird barrier to entry, and I don't really think the gradual unlocks for one time only is particularly interesting. Maybe other people appreciate the Insight experience more than I do, though. I'm not sure, though it's unsurprising that there's often Insight AFK pubs on the server list. But I also wish they'd be more open to just updating base kits alongside skill trees for certain things (Wortox got a pretty big one this update, actually, which seems uncommon.) I'm sure there's plenty of existing discussions about this outside of just what's been discussed on the current beta's sub forums, which is the only thing I expose myself to, here.

I personally think Walter is currently fairly rewarding as-is, but Beefalo take away the risk involved with him, and Woby isn't compelling enough as long-term mount for anyone who wants to maximize their potential. I really hope to see that change, but I'm not entirely sure what they're doing about her. I think maybe they're aware there's a problem? People have discussed it, but it's not like they have anyone directly communicating with us consistently, and I'm not sure I've even seen a staff member post in a thread that isn't about Wendy... I think it would be really helpful for him to have a more compelling reason to stick with Woby as a mount, long-term, though, because she still keeps some of that risk factor as you actually receive player damage and also risk her bucking you. It's also nice that progression, some preparation, and a bit of minor technical skill are necessary to get the most out of his slingshot, which contributes to what makes him feel rewarding currently. But I think you're right that fixing Big Woby as a viable mount might actually be really important, because it directly interacts with his formula rather than offers a total workaround. I hadn't fully considered that she's a major thing holding him back, in this way. She could be what gives him payoff, not even just for her own flaws, but for Walter's too.

1 hour ago, WeWoWa said:

I don’t play Walter, so I’m not going to argue in a discussion about him, but I wanted to ask why you mentioned Willow in parentheses. You wrote that Willow is weak without Insight points, but I don’t really understand the point of that argument because every character has the same waiting time for Insight points. The fact that Willow is an average character without a skill tree was fixed by the Skill Tree.

It seems to me that the author meant that with Walter, you need to gather materials for ammo and upgrade the slingshot, while with Willow, all you need to do is find bees or other small creatures, and you already have everything you need. So no, Willow does not suffer from the same problem as Walter.

Edit:Ah, and you only need to max out the skill tree once to have it permanently, so Willow can be incredibly strong from day one.

 

3 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

but I want to note that for the (likely) vast majority of people who don't cheat to unlock the tree who will try Walter, they will still have to survive as base Walter for 160(?) days to unlock his tree to bring his slingshot online, and no buffs to his slingshot will really help with what already keeps people off of Walter as is.

Erm, I'm pretty sure they're talking about the process of unlocking the Insight points. I mentioned Willow because a lot of REALLY important gameplay options are locked behind pretty heavy requirements, and both skills for Bernie and pyromancy are high-cost at 7 and 8 points, respectively. But at least she's not plagued with a particularly bad downside like Walter is, as you're waiting for these to unlock, and Bernie's still usable too.

For reference, it costs 13 Insight to get all of the slingshot related skills, and the ammo skills are especially important to get ASAP,  because the base economy on Cursed + Slowdown Rounds is pretty awful. You'd start seeing a more complete picture for Walter's slingshot around 10 or 11 Insight points, depending on your prioritized frame (though I personally think you should really have both, long-term.) It kinda sucks that you really need both branches unlocked to make the slingshot a viable weapon. And the whole time, you're not even making progress on Woby training unless you skill swap.

I think it just sounds a little tedious as an organic experience. The only real way to make it feel better as a player is with multiple skills swaps. I don't think anything can be particularly done about it other than condensing slingshot upgrade skills and lowering the skill requirements on Projectile Pro, but it's definitely notable that Walter's slingshot is pretty heavily gatekept by Insight points as they're being unlocked the intended way.

But regarding the ammo and upgrade process, I'm actually quite a fan of it. It feels really good to me as far as character progression is concerned. My only real complaint is that Dreadstone Rounds are pretty awful to ramp up, and they're not even close to good enough to justify it. But otherwise, I think he might have the most enjoyable experience of progression now, across the entire cast. He just gets better and better and better as time goes on and progress is made. I don't feel like I was even done with it until a third CC kill, though this was primarily for item management QoL at the later stages, and some people might care less about that.

[Dyzrespect]

9 hours ago, WeWoWa said:

You say that you selfishly want Walter to remain a weak character so you can have a challenge. But have you considered simply not using his skill tree when it’s released? You know, no one is going to force you to use it if you want a challenge, and every skill tree should be designed to strengthen the character, not to leave them at the same level they were before.

My main point to making this thread is to bring awareness to what makes Walter incredibly unpopular, in the interest of influencing his update to make him a bit more popular so there is maybe 1% of the discourse about him as there is about Wendy in the future, lol. The ONLY people playing Walter right now are masochists who love how horrible and challenging he is, so naturally my selfish inclination is that people still see Walter players as skilled and masochistic (similar to Wes), but I'm not being very serious. But what I enjoy most in this game are characters who have good payoff to steep investment (like Wanda, ruins/archives rushing to come online with her watches, or Warly setting up Volt Goat farms, etc). Walter has the potential to scale the most with proper investment and could be extremely satisfying, similar to farming blowdarts all winter in old DST or DS to become a ranged god against your next boss fight.

[Civecilim]

12 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

she is worse than a beefalo, and her riding badges as they are don't really change that imo.

I recall someone having suggested that big Woby should be allowed to wear a backpack in order to become a cargo beefalo. I'm not sure how many people that would interest.

[Catuna_]

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

There are many other issues and negative quirks with Walter (eg. very weak campfire stories that almost rarely even have time to even finish, and other fun and thematic but lackluster 'flavor' ablities like sanity from treehugging, etc) but these are the main things that make him underplayed.

Tree sanity is not lackluster and it enables Walter's sanity to feel a lot smoother and less bad for the player. I've played Walter with a mod that disables it and his sanity felt significantly worse, you are getting tam o' shanter sanity just from being near a couple trees and that is not lackluster.

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

Simply put, taking Health and Sanity damage from every makes him arguably the worst character for melee combat, next to unmounted Wendy and Wes

I don't understand why Wendy is included here? She deals more damage than Wigfrid does even on foot. And also no, nothing is worse than -25% damage and that's why Wes will always be the worst character in the game for combat.

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

 Implement ways to negate his sanity loss downside more effectively, or perhaps even nerf/remove the passive sanity drain from being injured. I personally would be sad to just see this mechanic nerfed/removed, but it is truly what makes Walter the most punishing character to play. It is a fun mechanic to play around in combat, but the gradual snowball aspects of Walter's drawback almost completely halt any new players from wanting to or being able to play him.

I don't support the idea of drastically changing a character like this because it skews the balance that people who already played Walter enjoy, I for one genuinely would hate if his sanity downsides just went bye bye because they're a big part of the character and it'd make him far less interesting to play. Walter doesn't need to be the most played and whenever you're working on a character you shouldn't stray from their original concept for the sake of the pre-existing playerbase.

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

the ridable Big Woby is also wholly a gimmick that is NEVER useful. Realistically, Walter wants an actual beefalo to take his damage for him to negate his downside, both for melee and for his ranged combat styles, so using Woby as a beefalo even day 1 is a negative, as it both costs you monster meat and time spent riding/taming an actual beefalo. This is before we even get to how dangerous riding Woby is. I'll give a few examples:

- Getting bucked off of Woby from a cheap shot from a merm/tentacle and instantly dying.
- Big Woby constantly triggering dangling depth dwellers on her own as you try to navigate the village/labyrinth. (Or riding her and getting knocked off by a shadow splumonkey/bishop and dying)
- Woby shrinking and bucking you off when you're freezing/overheating or somewhere dangerous
- Getting bucked off by Woby in any boss fight is usually certain death

Never is such a strong word, but no not really... Woby is just fine on her own, she's just worse than a beefalo. A big misconception I always see is that people really overestimate Walter's sanity downside. Walter doesn't just go insane from one hit especially when armored and I feel like that's something this post glosses over a ton. When wearing high damage reduction armors (such as marble or night or even just a crown) and/or bringing just a couple sanity foods (cactus flesh grows year round) Walter will only go insane from being consistently struck over and over again throughout a fight, this is something fair to be punished for. Thus Walter really does not need to be glued to a beefalo and I really don't understand why a lot of people pretend like he is.

Back to these examples, I will use Walter wearing a football helmet as an example because I feel like that's fair. Accounting for that 80% damage reduction; Walter would need to take 40 damage within 5 seconds to get bucked off and merms, the first tentacle hit (since they attack twice), one splumonkey do not reach this damage. You can also dodge the Bishop shot while on Woby just like you can on a beefalo, and the windup the Bishop has for it to attack gives you enough time to act accordingly to the situation. Woby slowing down is very noticable even if there aren't any other cues, and slows down significantly when she's close to transforming back into small Woby making this a genuine non issue for someone who's played the character for any amount of time. And as for boss fights, wearing a marble suit (it's fair to assume you'd be wearing one) you'd need to take 160 whopping damage within 5s, this is very forgiving as it means that you can even take an attack from the twins or the tier 2 shadow knight and not get bucked. The only situation where I believe that this could be true is when fighting Bee Queen, who will always buck off Walter regardless of any armor worn due to the +10 allergy damage, however... Walter's Bee Queen fight is kind of a joke (beta), as he easily sweeps the fight with his range and option for AoE and slows.

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

So IMO, at minimum, Woby needs to be trainable up to the point of becoming equal to a beefalo or better for Walter.

I think she should just be significantly faster, which would fit her skittish nature and give a huge reward as an alternative (but not a strict upgrade to maintain Klei's intended balance (or at least I think that's what they intend)) to a rider beefalo.

13 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

Also having Big Woby not be a literal death trap early on would help, maybe just remove the bucking and have her shrink after taking too much damage, or have the bucking animation be quicker/smoother but have Woby flee from Walter for the rest of the fight, I don't know, but as is, at best, she is worse than a beefalo, and her riding badges as they are don't really change that imo.

No, I think she's fine honestly, especially with the perks that increase the buck threshold up to 33 damage (660 with a marble suit) being bucked becomes a genuine non-issue. An idea I've already proposed is merging Agility, Support and Bravery into one perk called endurance which increases her speed, reduces her hunger rate, and gives Walter innate damage reduction while riding Woby which would make her stomach more damage without bucking Walter off and reduce the damage Walter takes on Woby.
Saying she's a literal death trap is a really big stretch, she's genuinely not. She's a great early game perk as Walter is one of few select characters who have access to such a high speed boost in the early game.
I think Klei giving us 3 Woby perks that only make her more and more reminiscent of a dollar store beefalo is what's holding the Woby branch back, and Klei merging those three perks would open up space for far more interesting utility perks that Beefalo cannot replicate. Also make Big woby able to fetch and dig lmao why can't she do that is she stupid

Overall I think that this post has some decent ideas, but I really disagree with the concept of removing Walter's downsides as a way of making him engaging to other people. As a person who basically exclusively plays this character, and for the (admittedly limited) rest of Walter players, I think it's fair to say that you'd be removing a huge part of the appeal for us. Skill trees are never made to rework a character from the ground up, as they will keep the core concept and ideas for a character. Besides, there's 17 other characters to play.

[ZennyZen]

I'd like a first aid kit, a regenerative type, that stops Walter's sanity drain(from trait) while in effect.

+ Faster restoration when camping (sleeping)

[Dyzrespect]

4 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

Overall I think that this post has some decent ideas, but I really disagree with the concept of removing Walter's downsides as a way of making him engaging to other people. As a person who basically exclusively plays this character, and for the (admittedly limited) rest of Walter players, I think it's fair to say that you'd be removing a huge part of the appeal for us. Skill trees are never made to rework a character from the ground up, as they will keep the core concept and ideas for a character. Besides, there's 17 other characters to play.

I think most of your points, while fair, ignore the main premise of the post, that is increasing Walter's play rate and accessibility. Marble armor and endgame items negating his downsides do nothing to help that. We are both Walter enjoyers as he is, but Klei, or at least the devs in the stream, pretty plainly expressed that Walter receives little attention due to his poor play rate (that is still apparently extremely low relative to all 17 other characters). You can play Wes properly with the right items and armors and he becomes stronger than any other character played by 90% of the playerbase, weakness and challenge is relative to whoever is playing them. Pretty much every skill tree thus far has turned the characters they're added to into powerhouses with very few weaknesses, so Walter feeling less weak as a result of it is bound to happen no matter what. Also lessening his downsides has 0 impact on Veteran players already managing them properly, and does a lot for new players who are struggling to handle them, so I don't think anything would be lost from nerfing them.

Now arguing that Walter should remain niche is fine and a fair opinion, and one I even agree with (cuz its fun maining an underdog), I just don't think that underdelivering on his skill tree services that either.

[Bluepugjr]

14 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

it's definitely notable that Walter's slingshot is pretty heavily gatekept by Insight points as they're being unlocked the intended way.

This^
 

walter progression feels so good once you already have the insight points but having to wait 40-60 days so I can unlock all the skills I want and then forage for the actual materials I need to make the upgrades is a clunky mess.

sure this can be circumvented by collecting the materials before unlocking the skills but the average player isn’t going to know the crafting recipes in advance so I still think it’s kind of clunky.

that and carrying around a bunch of recourses that you can’t use yet is unnecessarily cumbersome.

7 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

The ONLY people playing Walter right now are masochists who love how horrible and challenging he is

Actually I just like his character and don’t mind the extra struggle

[Mysterious box]

I feel like Walter's sanity mechanic is fine as is while I agree off spawn Walter's in a semi dangerous state as he can death spiral pretty quickly in the first few days if he's not careful he's actually a much safer character on average once you get the bare minimum even more so with basic knowledge about his abilities for example his portable tent gives him a very easy way to manage his hp and so long as it's above the threshold insanity isn't a consideration. His tree perk usually doesn't help much but that's only because people don't lean into the ways it can be useful like if your heavily injured early on you can instead opt to explore forests with your hat on to prevent passive sanity decay while looking for resources or butterflies to heal. Also setting up trees near a campfire or structures you use frequently can also be useful to add little bits of sanity here and there as you do things. That being said I think having a early death spiral is fine simply because it usually only happens earlier into a run if it does at all meaning there's less headache over picking yourself back up and starting again and it suits him as a more progression based character than the rest of the cast.

As for Woby I do agree she needs a lot of help she's definitely usable but beyond the short term she's generally just not a good investment but fingers crossed the next update ends that.

[Dyzrespect]

33 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like Walter's sanity mechanic is fine as is while I agree off spawn Walter's in a semi dangerous state as he can death spiral pretty quickly in the first few days if he's not careful he's actually a much safer character on average once you get the bare minimum even more so with basic knowledge about his abilities for example his portable tent gives him a very easy way to manage his hp and so long as it's above the threshold insanity isn't a consideration. His tree perk usually doesn't help much but that's only because people don't lean into the ways it can be useful like if your heavily injured early on you can instead opt to explore forests with your hat on to prevent passive sanity decay while looking for resources or butterflies to heal. Also setting up trees near a campfire or structures you use frequently can also be useful to add little bits of sanity here and there as you do things. That being said I think having a early death spiral is fine simply because it usually only happens earlier into a run if it does at all meaning there's less headache over picking yourself back up and starting again and it suits him as a more progression based character than the rest of the cast.

As for Woby I do agree she needs a lot of help she's definitely usable but beyond the short term she's generally just not a good investment but fingers crossed the next update ends that.

I agree, I enjoy how dynamic Walter's sanity mechanic is, I just can't reason any other source for his low play rate. I'd say he's perhaps not even as punishing as early game Wanda in terms of survival, but his playrate is still worse. Obviously rn his payoff is way worse than Wanda, who becomes almost inarguably the strongest character in the game, but I can almost guarantee most people who try out Walter, who aren't already veterans at the game, just die in the first few days as Walter. I don't see a way of helping them besides nerfing or making managing his downside early easier (or actually maybe just increasing his base health could work? but that might be worse). At the end of the day, the way you play him shouldn't change as long as they don't remove the mechanic entirely.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

I agree, I enjoy how dynamic Walter's sanity mechanic is, I just can't reason any other source for his low play rate. I'd say he's perhaps not even as punishing as early game Wanda in terms of survival, but his playrate is still worse. Obviously rn his payoff is way worse than Wanda, who becomes almost inarguably the strongest character in the game, but I can almost guarantee most people who try out Walter, who aren't already veterans at the game, just die in the first few days as Walter. I don't see a way of helping them besides nerfing or making managing his downside early easier (or actually maybe just increasing his base health could work? but that might be worse). At the end of the day, the way you play him shouldn't change as long as they don't remove the mechanic entirely.

His low play rate was because the gimmick his playstyle pushed for was bad like really bad and there have been a lot of complaints about it over the years which while attempts to soften it were made they never outright fixed the core issue with it until now.

[Dyzrespect]

9 hours ago, Civecilim said:

I recall someone having suggested that big Woby should be allowed to wear a backpack in order to become a cargo beefalo. I'm not sure how many people that would interest.

She already retains her 9 inventory slots when big, but perhaps extra slots when big, or special slots for meats that will dry as you ride would be cool. Or maybe even holding Walter's backpack while big so he can use protective armor (or double up on backpacks if you're moving base or something).

[Mysterious box]

Walter definitely had other abilities and they weren't useless but his pre skill tree state was like release Winona without her catapults or Wurt without her merms.

Edit: Was too slow for it to connect

[Mike23Ua]

Newer players probably shouldn’t be playing as Walter?? And I don’t think Klei needs to try to make every character brain dead easy to learn and play as, there needs to be some more advanced player characters who require you to have at least a bit of prior knowledge playing as someone else before jumping in and trying to play them.

Walters “Downsides” are FINE if you’ve also spent the time playing as Wickerbottom who due to her inability to sleep: can’t use tents for free health healing and sanity regeneration.

But you know who CAN and even has a portable Redeployable version of said tent?? You guessed it: Yo Boi Walter!

But wait.. maybe he should have some additional beginner friendly and completely unconnected ways to restore sanity too cause like gosh: Getting hit once and then having constantly draining sanity is really really hard!

Let’s see: Maybe we can allow him to regain sanity while sitting near a campfire or or ooo wait no better idea, maybe he can regain sanity while randomly standing in a group of Pine Trees? Yup that’s very beginner friendly let’s add that!

[ST0PS]

53 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Newer players probably shouldn’t be playing as Walter?? And I don’t think Klei needs to try to make every character brain dead easy to learn and play as, there needs to be some more advanced player characters who require you to have at least a bit of prior knowledge playing as someone else before jumping in and trying to play them.

Walters “Downsides” are FINE if you’ve also spent the time playing as Wickerbottom who due to her inability to sleep: can’t use tents for free health healing and sanity regeneration.

But you know who CAN and even has a portable Redeployable version of said tent?? You guessed it: Yo Boi Walter!

But wait.. maybe he should have some additional beginner friendly and completely unconnected ways to restore sanity too cause like gosh: Getting hit once and then having constantly draining sanity is really really hard!

Let’s see: Maybe we can allow him to regain sanity while sitting near a campfire or or ooo wait no better idea, maybe he can regain sanity while randomly standing in a group of Pine Trees? Yup that’s very beginner friendly let’s add that!

Are you really trying to suggest that Wickerbottom is difficult to play because she has insomnia? Like, unironically?

Regardless, clearly if Walter's tools were enough to help more people play him they already would have, but they haven't, Klei confirmed it.

And the post makes it pretty clear that Klei specifically said that they don't like how few people play Walter, if their goal is to make more than the most experienced players play him (keep in mind most players can't reliably make it past winter), he probably needs to be easier for them specifically. Maybe if 90% of players didn't have to gravitate to solely Wendy to be carried by Abigail we wouldn't be in this current beta fiasco either lol. Walter is poised to be a great candidate for beginner players staying out of fights and observing and learning and focusing on surviving. Will that suck for the 3 people that molded their identity over maining an underwhelming character? Maybe, but who cares... back to Wes I guess?

If your bar for skill expression is being able to wear armor and cook a healing food, idk what to tell you, Walter is not challenging as is with his current downsides if you know what you're doing, nobody is in this game anymore. The mechanic is also only rewarding when being able to take advantage of fearlessness, which as a ranged attacker won't factor in much anymore anyways, so it's main purpose besides self satisfaction is making him more inaccessible to the broader playerbase. The only other lever for making more people play Walter is to make his slingshot so OP that people play him despite his downsides, which works for Wanda, but with full ranged combat being on the table here, I don't think is necessarily healthy.

[Chewabacca]

22 hours ago, Dyzrespect said:

Yes, and in what way does the beta impact anything in the post. The beta does not impact Walter's sanity drawback, I already addressed that his beta changes for the slingshot address a big issue, and Woby still doesn't take damage for Walter, even if he lasts longer before being bucked off (something still not even an issue with a normal beefalo). No offense, but have you read the post at all?

I also made it pretty clear even in the TL;DR that the snowballing effect mainly impacts new players of Walter.

Yes, I read the post. I asked because the way you wrote it seemed strangely removed from even my earliest Walter playthroughs.
1. What exactly are you being getting hit by to push you into an insanity spiral in a single hit? I'm not saying that he doesn't go insane quickly, he absolutely does, but it's usually caused by swarms, like spiders and hounds, not one hit. He’s like the anti-Wendy. The only instances I can think of where getting hit just once could be so punishing are if you’re going up against bosses without any armor. I guess maybe also clockworks and tallbirds (again, without armor or even the hat) if you give it some time. Personally, I like that Walter has plenty of tools to counteract the sanity drain, and I would be pretty disappointed if it was removed.
2. I think the improvement to his base ammo production will help, and the slingshot only needs 2 skills (mod kit and the sticky/jelly grip) to not feel like utter garbage in combat IMO, which isn’t so bad even for a first playthrough. (I’m not saying the other slingshot skills aren’t useful—they very much are—only that the slowness of the base slingshot sticks out more than anything else.)
3. Big Woby is currently faster than a beefalo while being able to act as a sanity regen station. Yes, there’s definitely room for improvement and she needs some unique skills, but saying that she’s just straight-up worse does not feel especially true. Monster meat is also not especially valuable to Walter outside of Big Woby, given how easy it is for him to gather meat.

Also, what about Walter makes him so hard for you? This is not a "gotcha" question and I will not be arguing with whatever answer you give, I'm just curious. I struggle most with getting food, so Walter is very suited to me.

22 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Based on the language used in their post, it seems like they have. I wouldn't dismiss this, as there's plenty of valid criticism here.

For #1, I personally didn't have this issue as a veteran when picking up Walter during the beta, but it's absolutely an issue for newer players, and we should care about that. I've seen people suggest an upgrade to the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat that actually provides armor, and that could be something consider for accessibility. The biggest problem with his downside is getting bopped when unarmored by unexpected hits, and, let's be honest, a lot of people will do whatever they can to rely on head armor and keep their backpack on for non-boss combat, but the Pine Tree Pioneer Hat doesn't allow you to do that as it stands. I'm wondering if that's a notable contributor to the issue.

#2, as you've stated, is pretty resolved by the skill tree itself. I'm not really sure what can be done to make it more bearable while waiting for Insight points, but to be fair, he's also not the only character with this issue (specifically Willow, oof.) I don't really have any well-thought solutions. But if the slingshot upgrade tree gets condensed, and/or the ammo crafting skill requirements are lowered, I think this could be a bit less of an issue. I just have no idea what is even going on with Walter's skill tree format right now. He got literally nothing in the last update, so I have nothing to really go off of here.

#3, yeah, Big Woby still has some issues. I actually forced myself to use her for combat until WAY later on in my playthrough, and I gotta say, Marble Armor is kinda gamebreaking as Walter with Woby. I didn't have too many close calls with getting bucked off due to damage thanks to its ridiculous damage reduction. The level 1 Bravery skill is quite useful for this, and I'd swap to level 1 Support whenever I didn't feel like I needed it. My biggest complaints were about her hunger mechanic, as you highlighted. I hate that the speed scales to the hunger, it's obnoxious to upkeep, and we didn't get any good solutions for it in this skill tree. I really wish she got something to increase her hunger cap, and a better way to feed her without Monster Meat's crappy spoilage without drying it, which is a bit of a heavy investment early on. Actually, come to think of it, I kinda wish she'd just eat monster foods I keep stored in her on her own at 34 hunger. It probably would have nearly halved the amount of times I've said "ughhh, Woby whyyyyy..." while playing Walter. It would be nice if there were a greater amount of reward for using her over a Beefalo, though I honestly think something that resolves that should be directly implemented into his base kit and not the skill tree. I think it would be nice if she had a special ability to set her apart regardless of your skills, like a back step or something, or, like, a charge for fast linear movement. She's nice as an option for passive sanity healing with the Enlightened Crown + the fastest mount speed, but that's really the only combination of things she offers as a mount, long-term, which isn't always worth the risk involved with riding her. I wish I had some better ideas on how to fix her as a mount, but a good solution to hunger upkeep would be a good start, as the accessibility is a huge roadblock, I found.

1. The problem with the pioneer hat is that ideally, you should have to make a tough choice between whether you want armor or protection against the sanity loss, which is why I wouldn't want the hat to become armor, but as is, it's a no-brainer in favor of armor. If Walter gets hit for 100 damage while he's wearing the hat, he loses 100 sanity. If he gets hit for the same amount while wearing a football helmet, he loses 40 sanity. So either the hat needs to be way better at protecting against sanity loss, or it needs some other buff that somehow makes it competitive to the helmet. I floated the idea in another post aimed at giving Walter more inventory, but now I'm wondering: if the hat had some inventory slots, would that help persuade players to ditch their backpacks and wear body armor for fights?

3. I wish there was a better way to let new players know that Big Woby isn't a beefalo who will tank hits for you, but also won't buck you off after one hit as long as you wear good armor, because I feel like that's a pretty common misunderstanding. The wiki doesn't help either. Agreed that 3 days is far less than I'd like to work with, especially with her getting slower after one day. Ideally I'd like if we could feed her after her transformation to get a buffer of at least 2 more days so that her speed didn't go down so quickly. I like your idea of letting her auto-eat monster meat you stick in her too. There's also no reason why Woby should get less hunger back from eating stale monster meat. She's a monster dog, she doesn't have to be picky.

I agree with the general points you guys make about skill trees being wonky ways to update characters. I can't tell whether the intention is to encourage players to play through different characters, or to choose one character and stick with them. I actually like the idea of each character slowly building up more power, but having insight be kept between worlds just makes it a once-and-done sort of thing that feels pretty weird.

[Walrusst]

You know, if his two crafting station skills with the very basic features were part of the base character rather then taking 6 days to unlock it would do about the same as having them being extremely multi-functional skills.

Except it doesn't count on a player having prior knowledge that they desperately need these two sort of nexus-y skills to start having him be functional. It also puts less of a skill point tax on his abilities for when we get a camping and foraging part of the skill tree tacked onto him demanding even more insight points.

Instead you know, you log in, you see he has slingshot upgrades and dog upgrades as a key part of his kit if you can read the character crafting menu, and his skill tree improves these things, rather then there being a six day tax to really getting to the meat of the character which some % of players are going to make a mistake on and hugely delay being able play the game solidly. (Given, someone who blindly picks dreadstone ammo before upgrading their slingshots going to be in for a bad time.)

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

3. I wish there was a better way to let new players know that Big Woby isn't a beefalo who will tank hits for you, but also won't buck you off after one hit as long as you wear good armor, because I feel like that's a pretty common misunderstanding. The wiki doesn't help either.

I literally went through this experience during the beta. I was never a Walter enjoyer before this, and I had no clue that armor would work, since it's not like it does on Beefalo. So when I first put on Bravery I to test, and got knocked off by a Spider bite, I was just like "???????"

I figured out the armor thing entirely by accident later on, and it completely changed my opinion of her as a mount. Marble Armor is insanely good while riding her.

[Walrusst]

One thing i had thought about is if you could throw a helmet on woby.

That way you have a backup slot for where you keep armor when riding woby that way you have insulation for when you get the marble suit on slightly too late.
Still doesn't get in the way of woby not having that much extra utility over a beefalo (The beef gives poop, a good weapon, great survivability for nearly free) but it does penalize the lazy approach to wobbing instead of getting a cow slightly less.

[Dyzrespect]

On 1/26/2025 at 5:58 PM, Walrusst said:

One thing i had thought about is if you could throw a helmet on woby.

That way you have a backup slot for where you keep armor when riding woby that way you have insulation for when you get the marble suit on slightly too late.
Still doesn't get in the way of woby not having that much extra utility over a beefalo (The beef gives poop, a good weapon, great survivability for nearly free) but it does penalize the lazy approach to wobbing instead of getting a cow slightly less.

Yeah I'm hoping Klei cooks on Woby utility, I honestly kind of like that she is left open to allow Walter to interface with his Health/Sanity drawback, but she just doesn't make sense when Beefalo exist. It would be nice if you could maybe inherit insulation or even warmth from Woby during Winter, or, a slight tweak to your suggestion; just allow Walter to access Woby's inventory from riding her so he can swap to armor stored in her quickly. Combined with her bucking resistance and speed boosts, could make her more appealing.