Wortox Extra soul Echo too essential. Needs a downside?

[Jakepeng99]

Using his 2nd soul echo could reduce some sainity. I think this is balanced because of Wortox having the map teleport.

[z3rox12]

how about no?

[Echsrick]

why sould suddenly out of nowhere every skill from wortox alsol have a downside? like where does that come from?

[Steorra]

24 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

like where does that come from?

It's comes from balance considering by others who are obsessed with balance and enjoyment of downside, they did same considering to every other characters.

 

But for you, it's more like comes from the "I prefer to buff my favourite character and to nerf other which I dislike" by your own. It's just a Wortox's turn which is the time to being dislike.

 

We all reap what we sow one day.

[Koomin]

It is definitely a really strong skill, which they have accounted for by making half of the other skills super weak.  It should have originally been weaker, since that type of design is bad.  It being so strong is really not great because you are sabotaging yourself by not taking it, so Wortox effectively has only 12 skill points to assign (realistically 10 since soul jar is also required). 

Adding sanity loss would be really bad, since naughty Wortox can't even get his sanity back, so you would effectively be unable to soul hop.  Something more reasonable would have been to make it so that the soul echos expired faster when you select the skill.

They really should have reduced the power of this skill and added that power into the useless skills.  At this point, though, they are never going to do that, so just making this skill weaker and leaving the other skills useless seems bad.  

If they were actually spending any time working on Wortox I'd be happy if they made bigger level changes like this, but they are clearly only focusing on one character.

[Koomin]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Due to the opinions showed this days, I guess many Wendy player would like to simply get Wendy out if this beta for to being the scapegoat no more.

It's a good timing to ask "focusing" for Wortox whatever if the "focusing" ever exist or not. 

And, I would like to see more balance changes to Wortox after the "focusing". It's fun to see what would happened once the turn comes for those someone obsessed with other characters' downside but being "Wortox's tree fixed no downside" to Wortox.

And yes, many Wortox's skills is "too powerful without a matched cost". Jakepeng99 just only mentioned some of them. I'd like to see some future balance adjustments for all of them.

Yea I agree I'm definitely supportive of just releasing Wendy immediately and stopping dumping developer time into her. 

I'm also totally supportive of removing some power from reverberation and soul jar, and adding power into the really weak and useless skills like soul decoy 2, reaching souls 1, soul thief 2, lifebringer 2, soul bastion in general, and the knabsack. having 2 must take skills and 6 really weak ones is not great. A lot of this feedback has been provided, it's just drowned out by other posts.

 

[Dingle]

20 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It's comes from balance considering by others who are obsessed with balance and enjoyment of downside, they did same considering to every other characters.

 

But for you, it's more like comes from the "I prefer to buff my favourite character and to nerf other which I dislike" by your own. It's just a Wortox's turn which is the time to being dislike.

 

We all reap what we sow one day.

I guess "you reap what you sow" really got under your skin.

The DARVO would make more sense if you weren't instigating this for months .

I lost count of how many "what about Wortox?" and "What about Wolfgang?" posts you made, and more.

You probably could have got more support on your Wendy changes if you hadn't have done that for months. Too bad.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I guess "you reap what you sow" really got under your skin.

You seems trying to projecting your own emotions to others. Sorry, in my world, everyone would trying to hurt others unconsciously by their appetite. Which means the karma to everyone would be the final judgment. No one could escape it. Including you and I.

Don't be surprised when you see someone have a deep faith of karma. Not everyone is Naturalistic Atheism.

[reddocc]

most of wortoxs nice skills suck I'm amazed you think this skill is strong when I consider it as useless as the mini souls, this skill is just having to pay separately to use map discount.

Considering most of wortox skills are already nerfed, like soul pierce having gunpowder resistance against bosses, wortox diaper being slightly better than a hambat, and soul inventory capacity being tied to soul jars.

wortox nice upside of recruiting followers is useless as you can't heal them with your souls anyways.

A better perk would be a faster animation for soul hopping as sometimes is just slower than kitting.

[Steorra]

43 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

most of wortoxs nice skills suck I'm amazed you think this skill is strong when I consider it as useless as the mini souls, this skill is just having to pay separately to use map discount.

Considering most of wortox skills are already nerfed, like soul pierce having gunpowder resistance against bosses, wortox diaper being slightly better than a hambat, and soul inventory capacity being tied to soul jars.

wortox nice upside of recruiting followers is useless as you can't heal them with your souls anyways.

A better perk would be a faster animation for soul hopping as sometimes is just slower than kitting.

Soul piercing is definitely the most broken skill even after the nerfing.

See reference: https://b23.tv/lsyUqwk

The show started from 6'00

 

Reverberation is a necessary skill for most valid builds due to the high value of it. It perform good for daily use, which simply doubled the soul echo effectiveness without any matched cost. Which the effect you cannot ignoring and say "it's useless". And there's no reason to say "this should be strong due to the weak effectiveness of other nice skills" since you're free to select every skills without limited by a particular tendency (nice or nauphy). And when Reverberation worked with both affinities, they become extremely overpowered which might be seen as imbalance.

 

Affinities of Wortox are the definitely power creeping evidence of Wortox's tree. Lunar affinity makes you become simply immortal to against bosses by a brainless method when Reverberation was here together. Shadow affinity gave an unnecessary reliable AoE ability to Wortox which he should not have due to his original design.

 

No need to say about Soul Jar here.

PS: I don't care how imbalance Wortox would be. I post these only for clarity that every characters had their own power creeping things. To blame those who obsessed with nerfing () if Wortox get nerf. 

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

It's fun to see what would happened once the turn comes for those someone obsessed with other characters' downside but being "Wortox's tree fixed no downside" to Wortox.

 

Wait what are you even talking about here?  I am one of the people that advocate for keeping downsides and protecting character balance and not having overpowered abilties, and am supportive of this stuff for Wortox as well as seen in the post that you replied to here.  You saw "what would happen" for someone with those opinions, and it was just the same opinions being applied to Wortox as to other characters.  There is no big conspiracy here.

[reddocc]

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Soul piercing is definitely the most broken skill even after the nerfing.

See reference: https://b23.tv/lsyUqwk

The show started from 6'00

 

Reverberation is a necessary skill for most valid builds due to the high value of it. It perform good for daily use, which simply doubled the soul echo effectiveness without any matched cost. Which the effect you cannot ignoring and say "it's useless". And there's no reason to say "this should be strong due to the weak effectiveness of other nice skills" since you're free to select every skills without limited by a particular tendency (nice or nauphy). And when Reverberation worked with both affinities, they become extremely overpowered which might be seen as imbalance.

 

Affinities of Wortox are the definitely power creeping evidence of Wortox's tree. Lunar affinity makes you become simply immortal to against bosses by a brainless method when Reverberation was here together. Shadow affinity gave an unnecessary reliable AoE ability to Wortox which he should not have due to his original design.

 

No need to say about Soul Jar here.

PS: I don't care how imbalance Wortox would be. I post these only for clarity that every characters had their own power creeping things. To blame those who obsessed with nerfing () if Wortox get nerf. 

so you show me the only ideal scenario where soul pierce is feasible; against bequeen, otherwise only helpful to farm bees and spiders souls.

reverberation is only useful for map travel and synergy with soul pierce.

you admittedly say don't care about wortox and say that something doesn't fit his original design(because you care)

you blatantly say your intentions of replying is to blame others

 

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

don't care about wortox

This never equals as "how imbalance Wortox would be". Don't put words to my mouth.

12 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

because you care

So then this is none of my business.

Hoping you have a basic logic before trying to rise more arguments.

17 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Wait what are you even talking about here?  I am one of the people that advocate for keeping downsides and protecting character balance and not having overpowered abilties, and am supportive of this stuff for Wortox as well as seen in the post that you replied to here.  You saw "what would happen" for someone with those opinions, and it was just the same opinions being applied to Wortox as to other characters.  There is no big conspiracy here.

If it was offended to you, I say sorry here for apologies. 

I have no intention to offend you. Cause I know we have different opinions but you are a fair people since you have same standard toward different characters.

The words you quoted was only for sarcasm to those who are dishonest. 

25 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Wait what are you even talking about here?  I am one of the people that advocate for keeping downsides and protecting character balance and not having overpowered abilties, and am supportive of this stuff for Wortox as well as seen in the post that you replied to here.  You saw "what would happen" for someone with those opinions, and it was just the same opinions being applied to Wortox as to other characters.  There is no big conspiracy here.

I just found that there may have some misunderstanding caused by language barrier.

The who I was mentioned, is those people who keep saying the downside is important, but at the same time keep saying "Wortox tree give no fix to his downside" or "the thing his tree fixed is not a downside of him".

I have never think you were someone like this. 

I'm sorry. 

[OMEGASCRUFF]

I don't really see a point. A lock on the skill tree would make more sense, but the way the skill tree is organized is... not really good for that, either.

I'd consider this the third best skill on his entire tree, though. It's definitely insanely powerful.

[IAmAFurrz]

On 1/26/2025 at 3:39 AM, Jakepeng99 said:

Using his 2nd soul echo could reduce some sainity. I think this is balanced because of Wortox having the map teleport.

i dont think this would be it, since it wouldnt make too much sense to randomly add a penalty to 2nd soul echo when 1st doesnt do anything. hed need to get more souls early but that was never really an issue with wortox pre-skill tree.

map teleports sure were ofc, as it was ludicrisly expensive, now i think teleporting costs on map tp is good

the main issue now is soul jars being so insanely accessible that you can do this as soon as you rob graves + find a bottle which is still insane to me. all the people that play wortox that i know all detest me even suggesting a nerf for soul jars (merely making it cost thule instead of marble) and they could not bare it like jeez (i love wortox btw, i still think hes way overtuned in terms of soul jar accessibility, not really in terms of 2nd soul echo as that was never an issue before)

[z3rox12]

People saying reververation needs a nerf clearly doesn't play Wortox. Its a fun skill meant for exploration. If anything this skill remove some of the all anoying micromanaging souls to "enjoy" the character.

[Soul7k]

oddly enough this is a skill I skip. Can't fit it into my build nor do I find it essential. the mobility is nice...but not necessary for someone who can just go where they want

[asdsaax]

I like how this skill makes it so Wortox can deliver on premise of being good at early exploration, because pre-skill tree using soul-hops felt pretty bad and there's strong competition that has both tools of mass destruction and teleportation

and Wortox simply needed help to catch-up with new standards of the cast

In general I'm glad DST focuses on delivering on premises instead of keeping characters as Wilson with a twist because DST is a game that can easily suck up 10 hours of your life-time and we better not spend it on grinding bees over and over again

[OMEGASCRUFF]

14 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

oddly enough this is a skill I skip. Can't fit it into my build nor do I find it essential. the mobility is nice...but not necessary for someone who can just go where they want

Just curious, do you skip alignment too?

[Soul7k]

1 hour ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Just curious, do you skip alignment too?

if by alignment you mean lunar or shadow i take scythe. if by naughty or nice. i'd prefer neutral, but I wind up naughty I believe

[Dingle]

31 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

if by alignment you mean lunar or shadow i take scythe. if by naughty or nice. i'd prefer neutral, but I wind up naughty I believe

Reverberation gives you twice as many effects for the alignments per soul hop. So, two Reaper boosted attacks instead of one, for example.

The premise of the thread is horrible due to this. It's mandatory because of the alignments. At least, if you don't pick it, you're half as effective with your alignments.

[Soul7k]

13 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Reverberation gives you twice as many effects for the alignments per soul hop. So, two Reaper boosted attacks instead of one, for example.

The premise of the thread is horrible due to this. It's mandatory because of the alignments. At least, if you don't pick it, you're half as effective with your alignments.

i was pretty sure alignments consumed the echo which reverberation needs to trigger a second teleport

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Soul7k said:

i was pretty sure alignments consumed the echo which reverberation needs to trigger a second teleport

It consumes an echo, but Reverberation gives you two echoes instead of one.

So if you don't get Reverb, your scythe gets one power hit. If you get Reverb, it gets two power hits. Doubled effectiveness per hop.

Put another way: twice as many reverb power hits, per soul.

[Soul7k]

Just now, Dingle said:

It consumes an echo, but Reverberation gives you two echoes instead of one.

So if you don't get Reverb, your scythe gets one power hit. If you get Reverb, it gets two power hits. Doubled effectiveness per hop.

hmm I will have to fiddle with it. either way I still don't see the point of nerfing things just to nerf them

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Soul7k said:

hmm I will have to fiddle with it. either way I still don't see the point of nerfing things just to nerf them

My point is nerfing it wouldn't make people stop picking Reverberation. You have to pick it, or your affinities are much weaker.

That's why Omega was asking you if you skip affinities. It only makes sense to skip Reverb (sometimes) if you are NOT getting an affinity. Otherwise, you're just making a mistake.