"Wendy is strong" is more like a lie based on selective facts.

[Steorra]

Since the argument of these has been completed ignored, I decide to start a new thread.

What is strong? Is it a definition based relatively? If not, where's the balance standard when someone trying to rise a flag as "XX is strong" for asking a potential nerfing?

We here only discuss for post-rift gameplay. Since if you want to start a discussion of balance, you have to be a experienced player first. Otherwise your words would not be taken seriously due to the lack of knowledge of the game. 

And of course I have no interest for gatekeeping. The clarify above is just for ensure the discussion be valid enough. If you were not experienced for the whole DST but you still have some personal opinions to the balance, you have a right to start a new thread by clarifying "no limit for balance talking" yourself. But for the sake of time saving, please leave this thread alone.

 

So then, let'sgive some comparison for post-rift balance to Wendy Below:

 

Woodie's weremoose form is stronger than Wendy of fault tolerance and skill needed aspects. Combine both of them brings a better QoL for Woodie than Wendy. Is there any reason to completely ignore these factors to say Wendy is stronger than Woodie (for post-rift)?

 

Wortox has their own insanely Lunar affinity skill. The bone armor switching combo was already discussed many time in general discussion, and many people think that combo is OP. Even some of them think a single bone armor is OP. But for now, the bone armor combo plussss effect from Wortox lunar affinity has been completely ignore for balance discussion by mysterious reason. 

Additionally, to use 5+5+5+5 wrapped bees and soul decoy (teleport once for 1st decoy and open the soul jar, the decoy cooldown has been refreshed, then to create the second, laterly those 2 decoy would kill all 20 bees who has team aggro to you. Then you have 20 souls at once time for a Top 1 DPS of the whole DST (no, don't say Winona here.)

Where's the reason to say Wortox is weaker than Wendy?

 

Willow has free tank for aggro management, even does same work for Shadows. And bee farms wouldn't be a problem for post-rift game. Her lunar fire just simply erase all hordes and Shadows behide her BERNIE!. And for most single target of post-rift, BERNIE! could easily solo them under sewing kits help. The only thing you need to do is just to release BERNIE! alternatively and remember to fix them. Is Willow weaker than Wendy?

 

Wolfgang is always a strong character, and even for post-rift he is still stronger than Wendy.

 

Wickerbottom is good at particular aspects which makes you can't say she is weaker than Wendy. They just have different things for showing their power.

 

Winona would be far more stronger than any characters in end game but yes she might be weak than Wendy when the rift just begins. But it's still hard to say "Winona is weaker than Wendy" if you consider the very later of the endgame. (Even you need not to reach the endgame you could still easily have 2 free catapult AoE DPS by her portable skill which only need 1 insight points. What? You think 30 stones are expensive for post-rift? Then there's a potential skill issue need to be detect.

 

Walter already has definitely easier way to dealt with post-rift enemies than Wendy as a special character (also have potential to be the most broken one, but whatever it's his style).

 And I guess no need to discuss Wurt and Maxwell.

 

Then who are still here beside those who have no tree? I agree that Wormwood is weaker than Wendy, and Wigfrid might be debatable (she is just a different style from Wendy for similar effect imo).

 

Then, if most of characters who have trees were "strong", where's the balance concerns when we shout out that a particular character is "too strong" for an argument?

 

And why not to limit other "strong" characters first before you ask to limit the power creeping from Wendy?

 

Or someone think characters who have skill trees should not be stronger than who haven't?

 

I hope we could have a basic logic before we dwelling deep into some arguments.

[Dingle]

Wendy is good at particular aspects which makes you can't say she is weaker than the other characters. They just have different things for showing their power.

Also cursed vex lets her hit for 100+ damage, not counting abby

[Yifei_]

Just now, Dingle said:

Wendy is good at particular aspects which makes you can't say she is weaker than the other characters. They just have different things for showing their power.

Yes, that's right, you also can't say Wendy is stonger than the other characters. Wendy's skill tree should be treated equally and not be dismissed with the excuse that "Wendy is too strong."

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Yes, that's right, you also can't say Wendy is stonger than the other characters. Wendy's skill tree should be treated equally and not be dismissed with the excuse that "Wendy is too strong."

That also means you can't say Wendy is weaker than other characters.

I guess we've solved all the issues, then. Beta over.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

That also means you can't say Wendy is weaker than other characters.

I guess we've solved all the issues, then. Beta over.

Nope.

We solved half of the issue, which leads a result as "the balance issues was never a issue, the functions and funs should be always important than balance".

Which means every single voices like "xx would be toooo strong" would be just a simple lie based on selective facts before the true imbalance problems appears in live.

 Then did we have any imbalance issues in live now? Yes.

Just to consider why some characters could being as strong as skill treed characters. GO ASK NERFING THEM FIRST.

15 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Wendy is good at particular aspects which makes you can't say she is weaker than the other characters. They just have different things for showing their power.

Also cursed vex lets her hit for 100+ damage, not counting abby

This thread is talking for post-rift. You are off topic.

Though I would never to say no for a nerfing of pre-rift Cursed Vex.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Nope.

We solved half of the issue, which leads a result as "the balance issues was never a issue, the functions and funs should be always important than balance".

"Balance doesn't matter, the fun is all that's important."

Not sure if the developers are going to buy that one after months of you and others comparing Wendy to other characters, to get her buffed.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

to get her buffed

If you insist the function and fun improvements is a "buff".

If you really hate the "buff" to a character, you should ask to close the beta discussion to that character from the very beginning. Because to improve the quality of trees is the original intention of this branch. And I have no argument if you called any improvement as a "buff".

[Echsrick]

so wendy is strong based on selective FACTS, so its not a lie then but the truth that she is strong

[Yifei_]

Just now, Echsrick said:

so wendy is strong based on selective FACTS, so its not a lie then but the truth that she is strong

so wendy is weak based on selective FACTS, so its not a lie then but the truth that she is weak.

[yinjiu019]

13 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

so wendy is strong based on selective FACTS, so its not a lie then but the truth that she is strong

This "fact" of relative strength is completely subjective...
Even though Klei's balance is not good, there are still many advantages and disadvantages.
Perhaps useless arguments will limit our progress

[Koomin]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Additionally, to use 5+5+5+5 wrapped bees and soul decoy (teleport once for 1st decoy and open the soul jar, the decoy cooldown has been refreshed, then to create the second, laterly those 2 decoy would kill all 20 bees who has team aggro to you. Then you have 20 souls at once time for a Top 1 DPS of the whole DST (no, don't say Winona here.)

Where's the reason to say Wortox is weaker than Wendy?

Is there a video or example of this or something?  I tried it multiple times and the best I got was nowhere near 20 souls following me in a not grouped clump that made teleporting multiple times around the boss to keep them active not possible, and did not much damage at all.  I really don't think that this is a real thing that exists.  Has anyone else actually done this??

Even if it was possible, I don't think anyone would actually even want to do it.  It's a very large amount of work and preparation and then a complicated execution to do like 1500 damage. 

I am a bit concerned that the scenarios being used here are not real and a bit fabricated.

[asdsaax]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Wortox has their own insanely Lunar affinity skill. The bone armor switching combo was already discussed many time in general discussion, and many people think that combo is OP. Even some of them think a single bone armor is OP. But for now, the bone armor combo plussss effect from Wortox lunar affinity has been completely ignore for balance discussion by mysterious reason. 

As Wortox player I think that Lunar Swindler isn't OP at all because... we already have bone armor and everyone can obtain it
I think this perk is more wasteful than helpful and not even optionally fun

[kehun]

2 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

I think this perk is more wasteful than helpful and not even optionally fun

Eh i kinda agree, the best thing about that perk is synergy with another soul echo so you have 2 free bone armor uses and it's works well for deerclops fight(and for me it's kinda fun) but without that skill it's just bone armor but i think you're right 

[Y0sH]

13 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Is there a video or example of this or something?  I tried it multiple times and the best I got was nowhere near 20 souls following me in a not grouped clump that made teleporting multiple times around the boss to keep them active not possible, and did not much damage at all.  I really don't think that this is a real thing that exists.  Has anyone else actually done this??

Even if it was possible, I don't think anyone would actually even want to do it.  It's a very large amount of work and preparation and then a complicated execution to do like 1500 damage. 

I am a bit concerned that the scenarios being used here are not real and a bit fabricated.

It's just yet another "Is Wendy Strong?" post where they gaslight you with other survivors that are stronger at specific things then say "Wendy can't be strong until you nerf xyz" it's like 30 of these posts if you look back through the pages.

I can do it too, watch this: "Is Wolfgang Strong?" How can Wolfgang be strong if Woodie has a form that has planar defense and an AOE attack from day 1 with nigh vision? This has to be nerfed to even say Wolf is strong in anyway. Wurt can amass an merm army that lunar forms and Kill any boss in the game without input can Wolf do this? If Wolf is strong then Wurt needs to be nerfed to even say that!.

It's the same equation every. single. time. lol

[xhyom]

2 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Yes, that's right, you also can't say Wendy is stonger than the other characters. Wendy's skill tree should be treated equally and not be dismissed with the excuse that "Wendy is too strong."

treated equally to ******* who, thats what I can't understand, who the hell is getting that much better treatment

[congrongfuguo]

There is another perspective on the discussion of strength and weakness. If Wendy is only strong when used by experts, is she strong or weak?

I think she's still strong, but it doesn't help solve the problem.

But now we have a skill tree, which serves to bring choices. We can satisfy two different opinions at the same time, depending on each person's choice of skill points！

Provide novice fault tolerance and theoretical upper limit for experts. Everyone will be happy

关于强与弱 还有另一个角度的讨论 如果温蒂只在高手使用时很强 那她是强还是弱？

我想她还是强的 但则无助于解决问题

而现在我们有技能树 它的作用就是带来选择 我们可以同时满足两种不同的意见 这取决于每个人对技能点的取舍

给新手容错率 给高手理论上的高上限 每个人都会很高兴

[Koomin]

9 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

It's just yet another "Is Wendy Strong?" post where they gaslight you with other survivors that are stronger at specific things then say "Wendy can't be strong until you nerf xyz" it's like 30 of these posts if you look back through the pages.

I can do it too, watch this: "Is Wolfgang Strong?" How can Wolfgang be strong if Woodie has a form that has planar defense and an AOE attack from day 1 with nigh vision? This has to be nerfed to even say Wolf is strong in anyway. Wurt can amass an merm army that lunar forms and Kill any boss in the game without input can Wolf do this? If Wolf is strong then Wurt needs to be nerfed to even say that!.

It's the same equation every. single. time. lol

Yea that definitely keeps happening all the time and is really annoying.

I'm just bringing up the Wortox 5+5+5+5 bee thing because I don't even think it is a real thing and is just completely fabricated, so it concerns me for the validity of the rest of the things being brought up.

It's also hilarious envisioning myself gathering 100s of bees in preparation for a fight, carefully separating them into groups of 5, and bundling them while everyone else just walks to the fight.  And then once I am in the fight standing still there releasing my bees and doing a complicated teleport cancel in place thing while the boss whacks me, all for less damage than what everyone else is doing just hitting with a reaper.  And then afterwards being told that Wortox is stronger than Wendy because of this waste of time and not even real strategy.

[Bumber64]

This is just getting sad at this point. Nobody was buying that Wendy was weak pre-rifts. Nobody's buying that she's weak post-rifts now that we've seen videos of her mopping the floor with several bosses. Cherry-picking parts of other character's kits won't change that.

[Catuna_]

i'm sorry at this point i'm starting to be convinced that people want wendy to do this ignore the speech bubble

[Yifei_]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

Yea that definitely keeps happening all the time and is really annoying.

I'm just bringing up the Wortox 5+5+5+5 bee thing because I don't even think it is a real thing and is just completely fabricated, so it concerns me for the validity of the rest of the things being brought up.

It's also hilarious envisioning myself gathering 100s of bees in preparation for a fight, carefully separating them into groups of 5, and bundling them while everyone else just walks to the fight.  And then once I am in the fight standing still there releasing my bees and doing a complicated teleport cancel in place thing while the boss whacks me, all for less damage than what everyone else is doing just hitting with a reaper.  And then afterwards being told that Wortox is stronger than Wendy because of this waste of time and not even real strategy.

新版恶魔人一秒千伤？！恶魔人的上限还在提升！『饥荒联机版』_饥荒

2min56s

[Mike23Ua]

Let me put this into the shortest TL:DR I’ve ever posted: Wendy IS strong for the jobs she was intended to do.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Let me put this into the shortest TL:DR I’ve ever posted: Wendy IS strong for the jobs she was intended to do.

Yes. Everyone IS strong for the jobs they was intended to do.

What the things this proved?

5 hours ago, Koomin said:

And then afterwards being told that Wortox is stronger than Wendy because of this waste of time and not even real strategy.

1. I say they were "not weaker" than Wendy. Not "stronger". Don't put words in my mouth.

2. To newcomers they could simply say "to keep abi far from death in AoE boss fightings is "not even real strategy". I have found that many of the members here would like to set a standard for judging everything by their own level, which is toxic and unfair for others.

Elaborate if it's needed - yes I only mentioned that Woodie is stronger than Wendy. If you want argue this with me. Just come and let start a competition after 2/6. Once I have computer again I fear no challenge by using Woodie because I'm Woodie main.

5 hours ago, congrongfuguo said:

There is another perspective on the discussion of strength and weakness. If Wendy is only strong when used by experts, is she strong or weak?

Wendy expert belike: "to keep Abi far from death is not hard which means the Vexed damage is nornal for Wendy, which caused 'Wendy is strong'."

Still Wendy expert: "No, the strategy Wortox is unreal. Not everyone could do it easily. It's not a normal scenario (for me personally). Wortox is not strong." And keeping silence to continuously ignore the power creep of soul jar and lunar affinity."

4 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

i'm sorry at this point i'm starting to be convinced that people want wendy to do this ignore the speech bubble

I'm sorry but I have never gave any suggestions to improve what not belong to Wendy's feature. This could be a joke but this is off topic for me.

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

新版恶魔人一秒千伤？！恶魔人的上限还在提升！『饥荒联机版』_饥荒

2min56s

This did actually work better than I expected or was able to test (possibly because I was trying the suggested bundling wrap way).

But yea I still can't imagine anyone seriously using this strategy.  You have to spend your time catching piles of bees, fill your inventory slots with 5 bees each, use a pan flute use every 20 bees, and all you do is like half health of the eye of terror.  And the DPS is even lower than Wendy or Wolfgang or Wanda just attacking normally.  It does look fun though to try it when I'm trying to be inefficient though.

Anyway - thanks for showing the link!

[Steorra]

5 hours ago, xhyom said:

treated equally to ******* who, thats what I can't understand, who the hell is getting that much better treatment

Woodie and Wortox has the most welcomed tree than Wendy. That's the "much better".

If you want to argue with me about this, go start the survey again of "what's your favourite tree" in General Discussion before you bother me.

5 hours ago, Y0sH said:

It's just yet another "Is Wendy Strong?" post where they gaslight you with other survivors that are stronger at specific things then say "Wendy can't be strong until you nerf xyz" it's like 30 of these posts if you look back through the pages.

I can do it too, watch this: "Is Wolfgang Strong?" How can Wolfgang be strong if Woodie has a form that has planar defense and an AOE attack from day 1 with nigh vision? This has to be nerfed to even say Wolf is strong in anyway. Wurt can amass an merm army that lunar forms and Kill any boss in the game without input can Wolf do this? If Wolf is strong then Wurt needs to be nerfed to even say that!.

It's the same equation every. single. time. lol

I have no argument if you want to improve Wolfgang further more to fix the downside he have. We are different.

Oh. Also. I have same standard to Wortox. Soul jar fixed his downside but I'm glad to accept it.

Not like someone keeping say that "no, soul jar is not OP" but keep saying "everything of Wendy is OP".

5 hours ago, asdsaax said:

As Wortox player I think that Lunar Swindler isn't OP at all because... we already have bone armor and everyone can obtain it
I think this perk is more wasteful than helpful and not even optionally fun

I won't say Armor Bone is OP. The argument is more like "someone think Armor Bone is OP, but keep silence to Lunar Swindler."

And samely, someone say "CureAll spamming is OP" but keep silence to dumpling spamming to every characters.

It's more like simple dishonest.

[Yifei_]

22 minutes ago, Koomin said:

This did actually work better than I expected or was able to test (possibly because I was trying the suggested bundling wrap way).

But yea I still can't imagine anyone seriously using this strategy.  You have to spend your time catching piles of bees, fill your inventory slots with 5 bees each, use a pan flute use every 20 bees, and all you do is like half health of the eye of terror.  And the DPS is even lower than Wendy or Wolfgang or Wanda just attacking normally.  It does look fun though to try it when I'm trying to be inefficient though.

Anyway - thanks for showing the link!

At the 4min 48s, the author provides a quick method to obtain bees (Ice Flingomatic + Bee Box), and I believe that the practical effect is worth the time spent on capturing bees.

You can also refer to the part of the video after 6 min (there is no Chinese commentary/text after this point, only demonstrations, so there should be no language issues). You can notice that Wortox's strategic DPS is quite impressive, capable of quickly killing many enemies, which far exceeds Wendy, Wanda, and even Wolfgang. It takes only about 7 seconds to kill Deerclop.

I don't know what players in other regions think, but in the Chinese community, Wortox is already quite popular without the skill tree. This time, the skill tree update is not only well-suited to the character's image but also has an excellent design in terms of practicality (with many videos showcasing the advantages in practicality).