Peasant Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 It's like, what's the purpose of adding player tag to Abigail? It should be making her taking less damage thus consuming less healings. But after healings to Abigail is halved, Abigail would still consume the same amount healing potions as before, some times even more than before cause not all bosses deal half damage to player tag. It's like, spend 3 skill points just for fighting bosses at the same cost? I don't quite get it… Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steorra Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 It become a mess. So many discussions and compromise about Sisturn III has lost their meaning. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 Like, 3 bosses don't do double damage. It still increases her durability. Werepig went from dealing like 150 damage to her, to 75 like normal Aka from killing her in 4 hits to in 8. And healing still works like normal if you unsummon her Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 This is really puzzling. I use this skill point to achieve more effects, but in order to balance this effect, you have to reduce other benefits to the same effect as not using the skill point. So what is the significance of using the skill point? Moreover, in this game, not only bosses need to fight, but if I use Moonflower, I will be weaker than before when facing non bosses. This is obviously a very bad change. Since we want to weaken the effect of the potion, we should make the damage reduction effective on all enemies 8 minutes ago, Debruh said: Like, 3 bosses don't do double damage. It still increases her durability. Werepig went from dealing like 150 damage to her, to 75 like normal Aka from killing her in 4 hits to in 8. And healing still works like normal if you unsummon her If a boss has summones that are not affected by player tags, wouldn't my recovery income be even lower than before? This is not something as convenient as the Winona remote control. Do I have to switch flower boxes before every battle? Or perhaps hide Abigail during the battle? This kind of absurdity Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 3 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said: If a boss has summones that are not affected by player tags, wouldn't my recovery income be even lower than before? If a boss has summons, it's better to use nightshade nostrum not healing. As nightshade will make Abby deal max damage and kill the minions quickly. So not really affected Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 13 minutes ago, YXukun said: It's like, what's the purpose of adding player tag to Abigail? It should be making her taking less damage thus consuming less healings. But after healings to Abigail is halved, Abigail would still consume the same amount healing potions as before, some times even more than before cause not all bosses deal half damage to player tag. It's like, spend 3 skill points just for fighting bosses at the same cost? I don't quite get it… 1. Abigail starts with 600 health, so it will take a lot longer for that to run out with the player tag, so it's already very helpful there. Against bosses that do double damage to mobs, the skill effectively is "Abigail starts the fight at double health", which sounds much better and is easier to understand. 2. Abigail getting combo'd or hit a few times in a row while caught in an attack pattern is often how she ends up dying, and then is harder to recover from. She is less likely to just die from full health or something similar since she takes less damage. 3. Most people use non healing potions for most of the fight, like vigor mortis or nightshade nostrum to maximize damage, and don't constantly have healing active. During this time period Abigail is much more tanky. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 4 minutes ago, Debruh said: If a boss has summons, it's better to use nightshade nostrum not healing. As nightshade will make Abby deal max damage and kill the minions quickly. So not really affected I don't think there's any boss battle that allows me to complete it with just Night Shadow. Once I need to reply, this flaw will be exposed, rendering this point useless Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 6 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said: If a boss has summones that are not affected by player tags, wouldn't my recovery income be even lower than before Also, if minions are a problem, then you should not use the effect. Basically: Fights where bosses are the main damage against Abby: Use lunar blossoms Fights against normal enemies or where minions are the main problem: Don't use lunar blossoms Nice little bit of strategy Just now, DaDa_waw said: I don't think there's any boss battle that allows me to complete it with just Night Shadow. Once I need a reply, this flaw will be exposed, allowing this point to retaliate ?? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 4 minutes ago, Debruh said: 此外，如果 Minion 是一个问题，则不应使用 effect。基本上： 以 Boss 为主要伤害的战斗对抗 Abby：使用月亮花 与普通敌怪战斗或小兵是主要问题的地方：不要使用月亮花 不错的策略 ?? So in the end, does a skill have to impose more restrictions on me in order to gain a very poor return? Why not just change the current player tag to 1200 HP? I haven't seen any other character with such poor design Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 1 minute ago, DaDa_waw said: So in the end, does a skill have to impose more restrictions on me in order to gain a very poor return? Why not just change the current player tag to 1200 HP? I haven't seen any other character with such poor design It doubles her health against the vast majority of bosses. How is that possibly a poor return? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steorra Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 4 minutes ago, Koomin said: It doubles her health against the vast majority of bosses. How is that possibly a poor return? It makes you have to switch the decorations on-off for different battle. It's inconvenient and weird. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 2 minutes ago, Koomin said: It doubles her health against the vast majority of bosses. How is that possibly a poor return? Because Spectral Cure All has been weakened by half in all battles, the two do not match, let alone I have consumed 3 skill points and searched for an item that is not needed in a normal game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 Just now, DaDa_waw said: 那么到头来，一个技能是不是必须对我施加更多的限制，才能获得非常可怜的回报呢？为什么不直接将当前玩家标签更改为 1200 HP？我从来没有见过任何其他角色的设计如此糟糕 'So at the end of the day, does a skill have to impose more restrictions on me in order to get very poor returns? Why not just change the current player tag to 1200 HP? I've never seen any other character designed so poorly' Very poor returns? What? It doubles Abby's durability against bosses. If that's not good enough, idk what is tbh. It doesn't just guve 1200 hp because that would make her too good against normal enemies. A lot of people, including you, have complained in the past about Abby not being good enough against bosses, and have criticized skills like like scare as well as bigspooks y claiming that they make Abby better at something she's already good at. Thus, Klei designed this skill so that it makes Abby against bosses only, to address the first issue and not fall into the second complaint. There are already skills that make Abby better at bosses with minions, such as the grave skills, and scare that takes the minions out of the fight. 1 minute ago, Steorra said: It makes you have to switch the decorations on-off for different battle. It's inconvenient and weird. You're not gonna fight bosses every day. You're gonna have lune blossoms stashed away, and when you're gonna go do a fight, you're gonna out them in the sisturn. It's not that inconvenient Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 3 minutes ago, Debruh said: 'So at the end of the day, does a skill have to impose more restrictions on me in order to get very poor returns? Why not just change the current player tag to 1200 HP? I've never seen any other character designed so poorly' Very poor returns? What? It doubles Abby's durability against bosses. If that's not good enough, idk what is tbh. It doesn't just guve 1200 hp because that would make her too good against normal enemies. A lot of people, including you, have complained in the past about Abby not being good enough against bosses, and have criticized skills like like scare as well as bigspooks y claiming that they make Abby better at something she's already good at. Thus, Klei designed this skill so that it makes Abby against bosses only, to address the first issue and not fall into the second complaint. There are already skills that make Abby better at bosses with minions, such as the grave skills, and scare that takes the minions out of the fight. So, which character needs to break their other abilities in half while acquiring new abilities? She scored 10 points at the beginning, and any time I used a skill point, she still scored 10 points. Don't you think this is ridiculous? KLei chose to solve the problem by making it more complaining. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 2 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said: Because Spectral Cure All has been weakened by half in all battles, the two do not match, let alone I have consumed 3 skill points and searched for an item that is not needed in a normal game. It does match. If effectively doubles her health total since she takes half damage. So she starts at basically 1200 health. Each 1 point of health is equivalent to 2 points of effective health. That is also why the healing rate is cut in half, since each 1 point of healing would effectively be 2 otherwise. It's exactly equivalent to just 1200 health Abigail with normal healing against bosses that do 2x damage to mobs. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 1 minute ago, DaDa_waw said: So, which character needs to break their other abilities in half while acquiring new abilities? She scored 10 points at the beginning, and any time I used a skill point, she still scored 10 points. Don't you think this is ridiculous? KLei chose to solve the problem by making it more complaining. Wortox lol. His naughty and nice thing makes him lean into one part of his character, and gain benefits while losing some stuff. Abby is already very good at normal enemies, I don't even know why you would use cure-all against them. And even then, if you're too lazy to remove the lune blossoms then you just unsummon her. Also, even if no character has something like this, why is that a bad thing? Why is Wendy getting a unique skill that makes her slightly weaker at something she's very good at in exchange for getting much better at something she struggled with, bad? Why does Wendy have to just copy other skill trees in your opinion? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 7 minutes ago, Steorra said: It makes you have to switch the decorations on-off for different battle. It's inconvenient and weird. Again, you should check out this thread where most of the bosses that it was "not effective" against were really just the wiki being incorrect, and they conducted testing to show it. There are like 3 total bosses where it is true for, which seems small enough to not matter and not require switching decorations. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 3 minutes ago, Koomin said: It does match. If effectively doubles her health total since she takes half damage. So she starts at basically 1200 health. Each 1 point of health is equivalent to 2 points of effective health. That is also why the healing rate is cut in half, since each 1 point of healing would effectively be 2 otherwise. It's exactly equivalent to just 1200 health Abigail with normal healing against bosses that do 2x damage to mobs. Also, I'm pretty sure only cure-all and restorative suffer this nerf. So Abby's natural healing is doubled against bosses Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 Just now, Debruh said: Also, I'm pretty sure only cure-all and restorative suffer this nerf. So Abby's natural healing is doubled against bosses It seems like it might just be a conceptually weird thing to grasp about how it is effectively the same as having 1200 health Abigail with no healing difference? If the skill said "Abigail has 1200 health against almost all bosses when you have the petals installed" I feel like everyone would love it, which is ironically basically what it actually does. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 23 minutes ago, Debruh said: Wortox lol. His naughty and nice thing makes him lean into one part of his character, and gain benefits while losing some stuff. Abby is already very good at normal enemies, I don't even know why you would use cure-all against them. And even then, if you're too lazy to remove the lune blossoms then you just unsummon her. Also, even if no character has something like this, why is that a bad thing? Why is Wendy getting a unique skill that makes her slightly weaker at something she's very good at in exchange for getting much better at something she struggled with, bad? Why does Wendy have to just copy other skill trees in your opinion? Does it take 3 skill points to weaken Votox? You overlooked the 15 skill point limit and the unequal benefits. Are you asking me why I need to replicate a successful skill tree? This kind of question confuses me. Abi is very good at facing ordinary enemies, but recent worms are in the middle ground, and what I don't understand the most is the significance of weakening. Does it make the game interesting? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 Just now, DaDa_waw said: Does it take 3 skill points to weaken Votox? You overlooked the 15 skill point limit and the unequal benefits. Are you asking me why I need to replicate a successful skill tree? This kind of question confuses me. Abi is very good at facing ordinary enemies, but recent worms are in the middle ground, and what I don't understand the most is the significance of weakening. Does it make the game interesting? Yes it does, as it makes Abby not be able to tank bosses and be ignored. You don't need to copy a good skill tree, Wormwood's didn't copy anyone. Neither did Wortox's. Unequal benefits how? You still haven't explained how this is Unequal benefits at all. It doesn't weaken Wendy, if anything it buffs her by a lot Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDa_waw Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 25 minutes ago, Debruh said: Yes it does, as it makes Abby not be able to tank bosses and be ignored. You don't need to copy a good skill tree, Wormwood's didn't copy anyone. Neither did Wortox's. Unequal benefits how? You still haven't explained how this is Unequal benefits at all. It doesn't weaken Wendy, if anything it buffs her by a lot I am a player and I want a more interesting skill tree. Do I need an explanation for this? Votox eats the soul and no longer deducts the spirit, so restoring the soul is unnecessary. Even restoring the spirit by releasing the soul is not necessary in Votox's life, regardless of whether eating the soul deducts the spirit. The most significant loss for Votox is being forced to bind with a bunch of problematic Wendy skill trees, which prevents us from playing in the official server. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debruh Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 Just now, DaDa_waw said: I am a player and I want a more interesting skill tree. Do I need an explanation for this? Votox eats the soul and no longer deducts the spirit, so restoring the soul is unnecessary. Even restoring the spirit by releasing the soul is not necessary in Votox's life, regardless of whether eating the soul deducts the spirit. The most significant loss for Votox is being forced to bind with a bunch of problematic Wendy skill trees, which prevents us from playing in the official server. Most significant problem with Wortox is the knapsack not it not being released lol Also just tested it but Currently Shadow Abby with player tag, and thulecite club needs 1 cure-all only. Shadow Abby with cursed vex and thulecite club doesn't seem to need any cure-alls. Maybe even only a restorative And this is after shadow Abby got nerfed to 25 additional damage only, totaling 65 damage Before the latest patch, shadow Abby, dealing 80 damage, plus cursed vex and also thul club needed 2 or 3 cure-alls for fw. The amount might have even increased due to the nerf in shadow Abby's damage. It is a buff 'I want a more interesting skill tree' just giving Abby 1200 hp isn't interesting. If anything, a little sidequest as well as knowing when to use lunar blossoms and when not to is more interesting Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomin Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 1 minute ago, DaDa_waw said: I am a player and I want a more interesting skill tree. Do I need an explanation for this? Votox eats the soul and no longer deducts the spirit, so restoring the soul is unnecessary. Even restoring the spirit by releasing the soul is not necessary in Votox's life, regardless of whether eating the soul deducts the spirit. The most significant loss for Votox is being forced to bind with a bunch of problematic Wendy skill trees, which prevents us from playing in the official server. These Wortox statements are not really accurate at all. Restoring sanity from releasing souls is used for a ton of other stuff besides replacing lost sanity from eating souls. It absolutely is used in normal gameplay all the time. It is useful in boss battles for sanity drain and to recover sanity in everyday life since sanity food works worse on him. Why did you say it's not necessary in everyday life? It's really odd to declare that a normal part of a character's abilities is "not really necessary", but then be so upset when a normal part of Wendy's thing is changed. Losing the sanity restoration is a really really large downside that is added by going naughty, and misconstruing that is definitely not going to help your point. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steorra Posted January 24, 2025 Share Posted January 24, 2025 5 minutes ago, Koomin said: Losing the sanity restoration is a really really large downside that is added by going naughty I'm sorry? But it seems people could say both of that "to lost sanity when eating souls is Wortox downside" and "to lost sanity recovering when releasing souls is new downside of Wortox" now. I'm sorry but I don't think this is logical enough. 1 hour ago, Koomin said: Again, you should check out this thread where most of the bosses that it was "not effective" against were really just the wiki being incorrect, and they conducted testing to show it. There are like 3 total bosses where it is true for, which seems small enough to not matter and not require switching decorations. I would keep my doubts until I have chance to test it myself but if the thing you post worked fine as they said, it seems ok. But the lune blossoms is still inconvenient tbh. I hope it could last longer than current stage. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163337-i-dont-quite-understand-the-nerf-on-healings-for-player-tag-abigail/#findComment-1788497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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