"Some players are unwilling to learn or practice" is Misconception

[Yifei_]

Please do not discuss whether "player tag" is overpowered (OP) or needs to be nerfed in this thread. There have been enough of these discussions. What I want to say is that the notion that "Some players are unwilling to learn or practice" is a misconception.

There are many Wendy guides on Bilibili, such as this one.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1se4y1L7Gn/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8

I previously watched Lardee's 57-day speedrun guide on how to make Wendy S+ Tier, and I also shared it with my friends in China. The speedrun records in China are even faster, with videos showing that AF, CC, and other beatable bosses can be completed within 35 days. Of course, this may be related to specific rules.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV11e411n7bp/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8

I have defeated all the bosses in DST using Wendy in many of my solo playthroughs. I have systematically learned and practiced their strategies, whether riding beefalo or not, using pre-Rift or post-Rift equipment. For CC, AG, BQ, DF, Klaus, Nightmare Werepig, and four seasons giants, I have fought them countless times for their loot. I have even studied the bosses in Uncompromising Mode. It’s not because I’m "unwilling to learn or study" that I want to improve Abby's survivability; specifically, the reasons should be these three points:

1. I want to have a larger margin for error. Previously, Lardee told me that pausing can simplify AF battles, and I accepted his advice, which indeed increased my success rate significantly. However, on public servers, I cannot pause, and even after practicing many times, I still cannot guarantee the same success rate as when I face Nightmare Werepig alone.
2. Compared to other characters, Wendy’s learning curve is too steep and too difficult. If you choose characters like Wigfird, Willow, Wolfgang, Wortox, Maxwell, etc., you’ll find that their margin for error and difficulty when facing AF and CC are lower than Wendy’s (of course, these character examples might not be the most accurate). I don’t want a new player to be repeatedly frustrated when playing Wendy and then realize that switching to another character makes things much easier.
3. I have a neutral stance on whether the "player tag" is appropriate or not. But what I clearly hope for is to enhance Abby’s survivability. There might be better ways to achieve this.

Indeed, these three points are subjective opinions, and I anticipated that there would be many replies attacking these three points of mine. After all, we should allow different people to have different perspectives. However, I still want to reiterate the theme of my post: I believe that the view that some players are "unwilling to learn or practice" is incorrect. This is a game, not learning or work. We hope to derive joy from investing an appropriate amount of practice, rather than having to invest huge amounts of time and energy to make progress. Don’t Starve Together has no upper limit; there are even videos on Bilibili of Wes completing the Ruins with 1 HP in Eternal Winter, Eternal Night, and Eternal Rain start-ups. I don’t think adding a "player tag" makes Don’t Starve lose its limits and challenges; it just gives players more choices.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1G64y1574S/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click

 

This is a video where I, personally, can defeat Nightmare Werepig after learning and practicing for a long time.

(I have edited this topic because game perspectives and understandings should not be related to nationality)

[Gashzer]

I disagree. Wendy has the exact same learning curve as Wilson. 

If anything, because how simple the abigail mechanic is, Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell, wurt, winona, willow. These characters have much more complicated mechanics that require different strategies, approaches and resource grind to use.

Once abigail dies you can heal her with a potion then revive her and play normally after that... that isn't complicated compared with a character like maxwell who requires you to juggle casting spells repeatedly inbetween regular melee combat while also managing his sanity levels and reduced hp means you can't make as many mistakes before dying.

 

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If anything of because how simple the abigail mechanic is, Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell,

no. I was never played max before. once I tried he is completely braindead for most bosses battle. Prisonprisonprison, bosses died. you only need to dealt with your own Shadows by summoning Duelists.

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

wurt,

seriously? she has terrible QoL for daily life but for fighting..... I hope you was joking.

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

winona,

She was just simply Wilson before endgame.

 

[Yifei_]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I disagree. Wendy has the exact same learning curve as Wilson. 

If anything of because how simple the abigail mechanic is, Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell, wurt, winona, willow. These characters have much more complicated mechanics that require different strategies, approaches and resource grind to use.

Once abigail dies you can heal her with a potion then revive her and play normally after that... that isn't complicated compared with a character like maxwell who requires you to juggle casting spells repeatedly inbetween regular melee combat while also managing his sanity levels and reduced hp means you can't make as many mistakes before dying.

If you disagree with my second point, I do not wish to argue against you. This is because that point is a subjective opinion based on my personal experience playing different characters. Such differing views could very well stem from our individual habits and strengths.

If you disagree with the content in my title, then I hope you can read my post more carefully. My suggestion to "strengthen survivability" is not at all because I am lazy in learning or practicing.

[Lee lol]

12 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I disagree. Wendy has the exact same learning curve as Wilson. 

If anything, because how simple the abigail mechanic is, Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell, wurt, winona, willow. These characters have much more complicated mechanics that require different strategies, approaches and resource grind to use.

Once abigail dies you can heal her with a potion then revive her and play normally after that... that isn't complicated compared with a character like maxwell who requires you to juggle casting spells repeatedly inbetween regular melee combat while also managing his sanity levels and reduced hp means you can't make as many mistakes before dying.

 

I play Wendy and Winona at the same time. Are you kidding me? Winona only needs to start her small casting machine, and the game is over.

All Winona needs is to collect enough resources. And anyone can do this after investing enough time.

[Xplan]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Wendy players have a much easier time learning how to use abigail during fights than maxwell, wurt, winona, willow.

your exposed that you have lack knowledges of these characters.

using merms is so much easier than using abi.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

no. I was never played max before. once I tried he is completely braindead for most bosses battle. Prisonprisonprison, bosses died. you only need to dealt with your own Shadows.

What's so hard with using wendy? Normal mobs like hounds cannot kill you. So basic survivability with wendy is already very high. Wendy takes less sanity drain from bosses and at her worst plays like a Wilson for boss fights.

How does this make her difficult to play? 

1 minute ago, Xplan said:

your exposed that you have lack knowledges of these characters.

using merms is so much easier than using abi.

Yes once you have spent the time to acquire all the merms and craft merm king, then they become more powerful than abigail. 

If abigail is to become as strong as merms then it's only fair that you must spend a lot of time to gather resources to make abigail stronger.

Do you not agree?

[Steorra]

Just now, Gashzer said:

What's so hard with using wendy? Normal mobs like hounds cannot kill you. So basic survivability with wendy is already very high. Wendy takes less sanity drain from bosses and at her worst plays like a Wilson for boss fights.

You was comparied with Maxwell right?

What's hard with using Maxwell? Is that hard to learn how to repeatly cast Shadow Prison?

[Xplan]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Yes once you have spent the time to acquire all the merms and craft merm king, then they become more powerful than abigail. 

If abigail is to become as strong as merms then it's only fair that you must spend a lot of time to gather resources to make abigail stronger.

Do you not agree?

that would be absolutely okay for me

gathering resources is the easiest thing in the world.

i cant refuse it.

[Gashzer]

5 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

I play Wendy and Winona at the same time. Are you kidding me? Winona only needs to start her small casting machine, and the game is over.

All Winona needs is to collect enough resources. And anyone can do this after investing enough time.

But winona still needs to craft her small casting machine. Wendy starts the game with abigail.

If abigail is to become stronger then wendy players need skills that requires them to collect enough resources before abigail can be buffed. This is a fair trade.

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

You was comparied with Maxwell right?

What's hard with using Maxwell? Is that hard to learn how to repeatly cast Shadow Prison?

Repeatedly casting shadow prison makes you insane. Now you are fighting a boss with 2 terrorbeaks. You dead, gg ez.

[Lee lol]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

But winona still needs to craft her small casting machine. Wendy starts the game with abigail.

If abigail is to become stronger then wendy players need skills that requires them to collect enough resources before abigail can be buffed. This is a fair trade.

They are not comparable... It's completely different types of characters. Winona doesn't need to operate at all, which is why I said she is simpler than Wendy. Wendy needs a lot of operations in the battle, while managing Abigail, kite boss and beefalo. If you haven't used Wendy to fight the boss, just beat the spider, try to play.

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Although Lardee claims that Maxwell doesn't need beefalo,

Why even bring Lardee into the conversation. And he's not wrong, with sanity food Maxwell doesn't need beefalo.

[Yifei_]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If abigail is to become stronger then wendy players need skills that requires them to collect enough resources before abigail can be buffed. This is a fair trade.

I believe there's no need for us to continue arguing about this. The experience of a character's strength is a very subjective matter. If you think Wendy is the best, I won't argue with you; perhaps you are well-suited to playing Wendy without worrying about spiders and hounds.

However, I also hope you understand that there are many people who have different opinions from yours. And denying this diversity is pointless.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Although Lardee claims that Maxwell doesn't need beefalo, in reality, beefalo can easily address the sanity and hp issues you mentioned. Maxwell can even utilize low-san shadow creatures. He can ride beefalo to fight shadow creatures to buff his shadow duelist without having to risk battling with the BOSS. Although this would consume a bit more fuel, the cost is acceptable. As for Wendy, it's difficult to defeat the BOSS with Abi alone, even if it's possible, it would require relatively more resources and time since it's Abi's attack buff on Wendy, and Wendy is the main attacker. Therefore, compared to her uncle who can tank shadow creatures from behind, Wendy has to take greater risks to engage with the BOSS directly.

The same arguement can be used with Wendy. A beefalo makes it so that even if Abigail dies during a boss fight, you are still not effected by the 0.75x damage multiplier wendy has. And wendy keeps the reduced boss sanity drain bonus she has.

Just now, Yifei_ said:

I believe there's no need for us to continue arguing about this. The experience of a character's strength is a very subjective matter. If you think Wendy is the best, I won't argue with you; perhaps you are well-suited to playing Wendy without worrying about spiders and hounds.

However, I also hope you understand that there are many people who have different opinions from yours. And denying this diversity is pointless.

Debating is good. Its a good way for people to explain their experiences and thoughts on the game.

I'm not denying any diverse opinions. If anything I'm simply adding my opinion to the mix. Your opinion and my opinion both have a right to exist on the forums. 

[Yifei_]

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

m not denying any diverse opinions. If anything I'm simply adding my opinion to the mix. Your opinion and my opinion both have a right to exist on the forums. 

The main argument of this post is encapsulated in its title, and I don't want the discussion to stray too far from it. Of course, if you still wish to debate, I don't mind.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

The main argument of this post is encapsulated in its title, and I don't want the discussion to stray too far from it. Of course, if you still wish to debate, I don't mind.

Survival games are built around learning, failing, and getting better. Dst is no different. If you wish to not spend too much time learning or don't want to spend too much time gathering resources, klei has very kindly added a load of world generation settings to customise your experience, you can reduce damage from enemies for example.

However, the solution to this isn't to make Wendy super strong. If DST is too difficult, then the game mechanics need updated, not wendy herself.

[Yifei_]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If you wish to not spend too much time learning or don't want to spend too much time gathering resources, klei has very kindly added a load of world generation settings to customise your experience, you can reduce damage from enemies for example.

How long do you consider to be "long enough"? I personally do not support using "time investment" as a measure of anything, but since you've brought it up, let me show you how much time I've invested.

[Xplan]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Survival games are built around learning, failing, and getting better. Dst is no different. If you wish to not spend too much time learning or don't want to spend too much time gathering resources, klei has very kindly added a load of world generation settings to customise your experience, you can reduce damage from enemies for example.

However, the solution to this isn't to make Wendy super strong. If DST is too difficult, then the game mechanics need updated, not wendy herself.

it's cool to learn how to live better, how to build a factory.

but learning how to handle bosses with abi is not only tiring but also meaingless (different bosses needs different skills and it is totally useless for other characters)

even you learnt, you will still make mistakes from time to time.

fragile abi and knockbacks do not allow you to make mistakes

[Gashzer]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

How long do you consider to be "long enough"? I personally do not support using "time investment" as a measure of anything, but since you've brought it up, let me show you how much time I've invested.

Well i have similar play time to you and I have no issue using wendy to kill bosses.

If Wendy is your main and if you are having difficulty getting better. I would recommend playing the game as Wilson for a while. 

Wilson's main strength is that he has no real gimmicks. So you are forced to play the game in a vanilla way that makes your basic skills better. Which in turn makes you play all characters better.

[Xplan]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Wilson's main strength is that he has no real gimmicks. So you are forced to play the game in a vanilla way that makes your basic skills better. Which in turn makes you play all characters better.

i guess this is not true for Wendy........

[Yifei_]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Well i have similar play time to you and I have no issue using wendy to kill bosses.

If Wendy is your main and if you are having difficulty getting better. I would recommend playing the game as Wilson for a while. 

Wilson's main strength is that he has no real gimmicks. So you are forced to play the game in a vanilla way that makes your basic skills better. Which in turn makes you play all characters better.

You do not answer my question: How long is long enough?
I don't need you to teach me how to play the game. I am very clear about what suits me.

[Lee lol]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Well i have similar play time to you and I have no issue using wendy to kill bosses.

If Wendy is your main and if you are having difficulty getting better. I would recommend playing the game as Wilson for a while. 

Wilson's main strength is that he has no real gimmicks. So you are forced to play the game in a vanilla way that makes your basic skills better. Which in turn makes you play all characters better.

Being able to use Wendy to defeat the boss does not mean that the process of using Wendy to defeat the boss is interesting. If you like to suffer, it doesn't mean that others also like to suffer. 

[hyoton123]

46 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

However, I still want to reiterate the theme of my post: I believe that the view that Chinese players are "unwilling to learn or practice" is incorrect.

I don't think Chinese players are particularly unwilling to learn or practice. I think they are about normal in terms of that. 

 

The only fight I can see in the 33 day run vid was eye of terror but I don't use bilibili much so I don't know if there was a missing part. I'll admit that I have no idea what they say for mods in the description, either, it doesn't translate to english well at all.

 

As far as the characters you mentioned, a beginner is going to have a harder time learning songs, max's spells and duelist management, souls, even the mightiness meter, and is 100% not going to have a CC kill for lunar flames. And bernie isn't well documented AFAIK. New players are not gathering the marble pieces and invading the ruins to start fuelweaver. (Wendy's good in the ruins anyway). (That said, beginners should be playing wigfrid anyway.) She's basically half of the quintessential Don't Starve Together experience along with Wilson, IMO.

[Yifei_]

2 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

The only fight I can see in the 33 day run vid was eye of terror but I don't use bilibili much so I don't know if there was a missing part. I'll admit that I have no idea what they say for mods in the description, either, it doesn't translate to english well at all.

I understand the inconvenience caused by language barriers. Please wait a moment, I will roughly translate the video's description and list the timelines for each boss.

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, Xplan said:

i guess this is not true for Wendy........

Wendy is a Wilson that does abit less damage. And if you average out the increased damage Wendy and Abigail do, while Abigail is alive. Wendy will kill a boss in the same amount of time that it takes Wilson to kill a boss.

2 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

You do not answer my question: How long is long enough?
I don't need you to teach me how to play the game. I am very clear about what suits me.

If you played Wilson solo for 50hours, you should be pretty good at the game.

2 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

Being able to use Wendy to defeat the boss does not mean that the process of using Wendy to defeat the boss is interesting. If you like to suffer, it doesn't mean that others also like to suffer. 

But fighting bosses with wendy causes no suffering?? For very difficult bosses like bee queen, wendy is one of the best characters to fight her with. 

What suffering are you on about?