Blessed Sisturn III is totally fine, it's just that some things need to be tweaked.

[Arepantera]

This is yet another "How I'd fix Wendy's skilltree" topic.

In a vacuum, blessed sisturn is a completely fair and does exactly what it was intended for, making abby more durable against bosses. However, damage reduction in reality also amplifies the effectivenes off healing, which ends up making abby a bit overturned when you combine Sisturn 3 with spectre cure all.

I've seen a couple of suggestions thrown around here and there in order to balance this problem, I'd like to list them and give my opnion:

1-Returning to the old overheal system.
I've seen some people say that they miss the old sisturn effect, that it was cool and unique. I agree that it was unique, but not cool.
It was wildly unpopular much more than the current sisturn effect. It didn't promote any kind of interesting gameplay, it just made you wait for a mediocre reward. I don't think that Klei will reimplement this old system because they know players would hate it. This is a terrible suggestion, I can't get behind this.

2-Increasing Abby's max HP to 900 or 1200.
This would in practice do the same thing that the current player tag does, but in a more balanced way. First off, since the giant's damage is still doubled, it will not be outdone by spectre cure all's Healing Over Time. That's the main problem that the current sisturn has. Your HOT vs Their DPS. Having more HP will result in having a greater window of time to fight the boss and have abigail survive. It would also help her against some bosses and regular enemies that never had a distinction between player vs mob damage. This is a good suggestion that I could get behind,

3-Make Spectre Cure All much more expensive but keep the player tag

Terrible idea, this punishes all wendy players, even those who aren't aware of a beta or anything like that for something that wasn't really their fault. I'm sure Winona mains are still slightly mad about this.  I can't really say much other than I really hope they don't go with this route.

4-Reduce Spectre Cure All's healing when Abby has the player tag
A simple solution to a simple problem. A lot of people say that if it cured 10 instead of 20 then a lot of problems would be solved. However I have a small problem with this. You see, I think this could be a bit confusing to new and returning players, at first they see the potion cure for 20, then some days later it starts healing for 10. It would upset some people and it would be annoying to explain them what is going on, in order to avoid this, I propose that we do... Exactly the same thing but in a slightly different way. 
It's simple, the way it would work is the following:
If Abby doesn't have the player tag: Change healing rate to 20 per second for 30 seconds
If Abby has the player tag: Change healing rate to 20 every 2 seconds, for 60 seconds.

If you just halve its healing, then spectre cure all will lose its identity as a potion that completely cures Abby, it's spectre cure all, not spectre cure half, after all.
Plus, a change in healing speed is less noticeable and confusing than a change in healing numbers. I think this is a more elegant solution, plus, if she is still healing way too much DPS, then you can just do it so she heals every 2.5 seconds and you also adjust the duration while under that effect instead.
I also support this change, I think this might be the most elegant way to keep Abby's player tag. 


And that's it.
Honestly I don't think a tanky abby is that big of a deal. Being able to damage a boss without directly interacting with it is something that a couple of characters can do already, in a cheaper, faster and overall more efficient way.
Another thing that I'd nerf but isn't related to Abby's tankyness is the pure horror potion. We all love Wendy's interaction with beefalos, but we all also know deep down that it's an unintended interaction that, the more you think about it, the less sense it makes. However that interaction in it of itself is fine, I'd just make it so that beefalo's don't get affected by the enhanced Vex, only on foot wendy's should get the full bonus. Don't fix Wendy's 54% beefalo bonus damage, just make it so it doesn't go above that.

 

[Yifei_]

These four analyses are comprehensive.

[Xplan]

maybe we should give atk invincibility back to gestalt abi......the first version.

[Arepantera]

18 minutes ago, Xplan said:

maybe we should give atk invincibility back to gestalt abi......the first version.

That wouldn't be a bad idea if it was implemented properly.

Untargetable gestalt abby was unhealthy for the game because her immunity frames were unconditional which led to her being able to solo bosses.
If she was able to gain more immunity frames and untargetability under the right conditions, then it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Like, for example
People talk about a "reverse vex", I think something similar could work.
Whenever Wendy attacks an enemy with a melee attack, she would place one invisible counter on the enemy, these counters can stack up to 15. Then, whenever Gestalt abby attacks, she would consume 3 or 4 counters to get immunity frames and to not get aggro while attacking. This would prevent cheesing and Gestalt abby could get her immunity back in a healthy way.

[Catapult 2.0]

Frequent use of health regeneration potions will often interrupt the effects of other potions, so don't 'nerf' health regeneration potions unless they give Abigail the ability to use two normal potions at the same time.

[Soul7k]

I think that rather than over healing the sisturn should provide actual health states. Similar numbers if not just 300 and it can only be regained if she dies by going back and gaining them again. That way there is some risk management and the sisturn would still maintain importance. The extra health would have similar effects as the player tag without doubling healing. Thus making her able to take a few extra hits without making her invulnerable

[RussoDaFederal]

1 hour ago, arepana said:

1-Returning to the old overheal system.
I've seen some people say that they miss the old sisturn effect, that it was cool and unique. I agree that it was unique, but not cool.
It was wildly unpopular much more than the current sisturn effect. It didn't promote any kind of interesting gameplay, it just made you wait for a mediocre reward. I don't think that Klei will reimplement this old system because they know players would hate it. This is a terrible suggestion, I can't get behind this.

2-Increasing Abby's max HP to 900 or 1200.
This would in practice do the same thing that the current player tag does, but in a more balanced way. First off, since the giant's damage is still doubled, it will not be outdone by spectre cure all's Healing Over Time. That's the main problem that the current sisturn has. Your HOT vs Their DPS. Having more HP will result in having a greater window of time to fight the boss and have abigail survive. It would also help her against some bosses and regular enemies that never had a distinction between player vs mob damage. This is a good suggestion that I could get behind,

Why not both? Revert back to the old overheal but make it "permanent" until Abi dies. The previous overheal was bad because the extra health would disappear in a flash and you'd have to do the whole process again to get 600 health (4 boss attacks, or even 3 in some cases). If the overheal lingers for longer, it's absolutely worth it, and anchoring Abi to the sisturn is better than just adding extra health instantly. I like all your points except the 4th, I think it's flawed and confusing compared to the first 2. I agree that the 3rd option shouldn't even be considered.

[DegenerateFurry]

Here's my suggestion: make Spectral Cure-All's healing halved on Abigail when the player tag is active only when she's summoned. So, if you unsummon Abigail, you can heal her at the current rate, and you can't just spam Cure-Alls to face-tank, but she'll still be more useful in boss fights because you'll have to keep her unsummoned for shorter periods of time and she'll be able to stay out longer than she would without the player tag. 

[Arepantera]

39 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Why not both? Revert back to the old overheal but make it "permanent" until Abi dies. The previous overheal was bad because the extra health would disappear in a flash and you'd have to do the whole process again to get 600 health (4 boss attacks, or even 3 in some cases). If the overheal lingers for longer, it's absolutely worth it, and anchoring Abi to the sisturn is better than just adding extra health instantly. I like all your points except the 4th, I think it's flawed and confusing compared to the first 2. I agree that the 3rd option shouldn't even be considered.

Point 4 is not that confusing really. It can be confused when explained in long terms, but in simple terms its: Player tag Abby heals slower.


The only flaw I see is that it nerfs Abby's healing outside of combat for no reason, which could be fixed with dynamic healing, which would increase or decrease healing speed depending on whether or not she is in combat with a boss. I'm not an expert in coding but I think this should be easy to do since the game already has a way to detect when you're fighting a boss monster and plays the correct battle theme songs.

Also, I agree that a combination of 1 and 2 is also a good way to balance sisturn 3, it adds a small punishment but the reward outweighs it so you want to engage with that mechanic.

[Steorra]

The rook still damaged Abi by 200. Not sure if it's a bug or not. Personal I prefer to enhance Abi health point to 1200, And this would be a solution for rooks and Cure-All I guess.

[Bumber64]

2 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Not a bug, since rooks aren't bosses/Giants.

That's what confuses me the most really. The player-tag halves the damage of Giants, not normal mobs, yet everyone acts as if Giants are the only enemies that exist in the game; content creators put too much focus on boss-fighting, but is that the player-tag's fault? 

AoE bosses are the only things Abi tends to struggle with.

[Siren11]

10 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Not a bug, since rooks aren't bosses/Giants.

That's what confuses me the most really. The player-tag halves the damage of Giants, not normal mobs, yet everyone acts as if Giants are the only enemies that exist in the game; content creators put too much focus on boss-fighting, but is that the player-tag's fault? 

I haven’t been able to get to my computer for testing, but I’m wondering something. I see people talk about using Blessed Sisturn III against bosses like the Shadow Pieces, Fuelweaver, Toadstool, etc. that I believe already do the same damage to players and mobs. Wouldn’t the skill not do anything?

I think option 2 (increasing Abby’s max HP) could be interesting. It would have more applications, and I think more players would find it useful depending on how it’s implemented. It also wouldn’t have the issue of the strange interaction with healing potions, so there’s no concern about eliminating Wendy’s downside.

[DegenerateFurry]

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

AoE bosses are the only things Abi tends to struggle with.

It's possible for her to die from frog rain. 

[Steorra]

53 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

AoE bosses are the only things Abi tends to struggle with.

rooks could have higher threaten level than some AoE bosses in some scenarios tbh. 

Also the frog rain mentioned by degeneratefurry

[hyoton123]

2 hours ago, Siren11 said:

I haven’t been able to get to my computer for testing, but I’m wondering something. I see people talk about using Blessed Sisturn III against bosses like the Shadow Pieces, Fuelweaver, Toadstool, etc. that I believe already do the same damage to players and mobs. Wouldn’t the skill not do anything?

Correct  The lack of clarity about what, exactly, is going to do less damage from blessed sisturn 3 is one reason I really do not like the current version. I don't think it's actually very good without spectral cureall (it might be like, not terrible with revenant restorative but i kind of doubt it), so without a significant rebalance it's a mess. 

[Siren11]

23 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Correct  The lack of clarity about what, exactly, is going to do less damage from blessed sisturn 3 is one reason I really do not like the current version. I don't think it's actually very good without spectral cureall (it might be like, not terrible with revenant restorative but i kind of doubt it), so without a significant rebalance it's a mess. 

Hmm. It seems like it’s either basically useless or way too strong. I wanted something that would allow Abigail to take a few more hits while I’m learning boss fights and exploring how to best use her commands, but it seems like this version won’t be usable in most of the fights I’d want it for. It’s also pretty inaccessible for new players. Even players who enjoy playing Wendy without potions may not see much benefit, since Abigail takes a lot of damage from minions in fights like Bee Queen (so you may require potions anyways). I’m not sure who the skill is currently meant to benefit

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Fitzee said:

Not a bug, since rooks aren't bosses/Giants.

That's what confuses me the most really. The player-tag halves the damage of Giants, not normal mobs, yet everyone acts as if Giants are the only enemies that exist in the game; content creators put too much focus on boss-fighting, but is that the player-tag's fault? 

This is another reason why player tags are clever, adjusting Abigail's HP or defenses makes her too strong against mobs other than Giants.

[Xplan]

Just now, Fitzee said:

So apparently, from what I'm seeing, another attempt at Blessed Sisturn III has been a bust?

Whatever form the skill takes by the end, it won't matter to me; in an ideal situation, I would choose skills that'd actually help Abigail dodge over it, whether it be pressing a button to make her dodge (timing), or controlling her and making her kite (multitasking).

my self-interest is: i want to play as a potion and pokemon master.

that would be interesting.

[Siren11]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

This is another reason why player tags are clever, adjusting Abigail's HP or defenses makes her too strong against mobs other than Giants.

Does it though? I literally never have an issue outside of rooks and frog rain, which can be dealt with in other ways. And that’s without using potions most of the time when dealing with regular mobs. Since she’s already quite strong against many mobs, adding another level to her health shouldn’t be an issue for balancing.

It might make newer players fall into the trap of relying on Abby’s high health rather than fighting with her, but that’s already a thing. If it makes people happy, I don’t care how they play.

[SilverSpoon]

12 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

Does it though? I literally never have an issue outside of rooks and frog rain, which can be dealt with in other ways. And that’s without using potions most of the time when dealing with regular mobs. Since she’s already quite strong against many mobs, adding another level to her health shouldn’t be an issue for balancing.

It might make newer players fall into the trap of relying on Abby’s high health rather than fighting with her, but that’s already a thing. If it makes people happy, I don’t care how they play.

Right... maybe...
I was just worried that simply increasing HP would make her BERNIE's sister, but I don't know exact.
I'm voting for "4-Reduce Spectre Cure All's healing when Abby has the player tag"

[Siren11]

3 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Sorry, but I don't agree. Abigail's player tag should belong to Wedey, not the server host, and Wendy already has the option to use "Blessed Sisturn III" or not. The same goes for characters other than Wendy.

I agree that the server host should also be able to control it, for example, so that the server host can prevent characters from learning some insights.

I think we may be having two different discussions. My point has nothing to do with server hosts or who should be able to control what. I think Blessed Sisturn III should be adjusted so that it gives Abigail another max level (up to 1200 HP). It would function similarly to the player tag but in more scenarios, while also not interacting strangely with healing potions. I was just saying that I don’t think it would be overpowered against regular mobs, since Abigail already handles most quite well with only 600 HP.

[SilverSpoon]

Just now, Siren11 said:

I think we may be having two different discussions. My point has nothing to do with server hosts or who should be able to control what. I think Blessed Sisturn III should be adjusted so that it gives Abigail another max level (up to 1200 HP). It would function similarly to the player tag but in more scenarios, while also not interacting strangely with healing potions. I was just saying that I don’t think it would be overpowered against regular mobs, since Abigail already handles most quite well with only 600 HP.

Sorry, that is just I posted wrong thread, I'm dumb

[Lardee]

8 hours ago, arepana said:

2-Increasing Abby's max HP to 900 or 1200.
This would in practice do the same thing that the current player tag does, but in a more balanced way. First off, since the giant's damage is still doubled, it will not be outdone by spectre cure all's Healing Over Time. That's the main problem that the current sisturn has. Your HOT vs Their DPS. Having more HP will result in having a greater window of time to fight the boss and have abigail survive. It would also help her against some bosses and regular enemies that never had a distinction between player vs mob damage. This is a good suggestion that I could get behind,

This would probably be the one I'd go with. 900 HP not 1200 and you get this the old way: by parking Abigail at the Sisturn for 4 minutes.  However unlike before, you should be able to de-link abigail from the sisturn by using the unsummon command. So once her health is maxed out, you don't have to go back to base to use her.

If Abigail dies in battle, her max HP resets to 600 HP, meaning you will have to return to base to get the extra 300 again.

[SilverSpoon]

13 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This would probably be the one I'd go with. 900 HP not 1200 and you get this the old way: by parking Abigail at the Sisturn for 4 minutes.  However unlike before, you should be able to de-link abigail from the sisturn by using the unsummon command. So once her health is maxed out, you don't have to go back to base to use her.

If Abigail dies in battle, her max HP resets to 600 HP, meaning you will have to return to base to get the extra 300 again.

I think it was retracted that in the last update because it actually worked not good (I personally really hated giving Abigail a timeout for her as punish to dead), and even more Nerf it from 1200 to 900? I'm sure people wouldn't be happy about it.

[Lardee]

6 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think it was retracted that in the last update because it actually worked not good (I personally really hated giving Abigail a timeout for her as punish to dead), and even more Nerf it from 1200 to 900? I'm sure people wouldn't be happy about it.

Has anyone actually tested out fighting bosses with 900 HP plus spectral cure all? What if the punishment was 10 seconds instead of 4 minutes.