Abigail is strong because Wendy is weak, isn't she?

[directx]

Many people enjoy comparing Bernie to Abigail. To find out what Wendy has left without Abigail, Wendy is only at 0.75 of her full capacity. Yet, Willow, even without Bernie and her fiery ball, remains a 1.0 character.

[YuRinshue]

Many people who hold opposing views dare not confront this issue directly. They don't care how much you have lost, they just don't want you to receive the rewards you deserve.

[PunkShark]

I am not entirely sure what you're asking.

Willow isn't about Bernie as her main gimmick, at least not the primary one. Her real talent is fire and using pyrokinetics, Bernie is a childhood guardian angel for her, to give her comfort. But Willow's downside comes in low sanity without bernie taking care of it and the cold due to her nature with fire.

But Wendy? Wendy as a person is someone who clutches towards her sister because it's the only thing she has left and truly cares about. Because Abigail is her main gimmick. Unlike Willow who has 2 main gimmicks which can be represented by her skill tree. Everything is about or comes back to Abi (with a few small exceptions)
And that's represented in her downside. "Doesn't hit very hard" alone. But with Abi, they're a team, she does more dmg but also everything Wendy does is to make her sister stronger.

 

[YuRinshue]

4 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

I am not entirely sure what you're asking.

Willow isn't about Bernie as her main gimmick, at least not the primary one. Her real talent is fire and using pyrokinetics, Bernie is a childhood guardian angel for her, to give her comfort. But Willow's downside comes in low sanity without bernie taking care of it and the cold due to her nature with fire.

But Wendy? Wendy as a person is someone who clutches towards her sister because it's the only thing she has left and truly cares about. Because Abigail is her main gimmick. Unlike Willow who has 2 main gimmicks which can be represented by her skill tree. Everything is about or comes back to Abi (with a few small exceptions)
And that's represented in her downside. "Doesn't hit very hard" alone. But with Abi, they're a team, she does more dmg but also everything Wendy does is to make her sister stronger.

 

The poster's intention is that even though Bernie is not all of Vila, many people believe that Bernie, who is a part of Vila, should be equated with Abigail, who is all of Wendy. Using this as a reason to limit Abigail's level.

[PunkShark]

2 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

The poster's intention is that even though Bernie is not all of Vila, many people believe that Bernie, who is a part of Vila, should be equated with Abigail, who is all of Wendy. Using this as a reason to limit Abigail's level.

I think it's silly to compare them cause they aren't the same. They don't play the same and neither does Willow or Wendy.
Abigail should be strong cause that's Wendy's main gimmick.
Willow chooses if they want Bernie to be great but they really have to commit getting a monster by her side for most effect, While Wendy does not.

All characters have a gimmick and things to make them stand out, Bernie and Abi is no different because they hold their own power and abilities, but it never crosses the same line they both walk on.

[Lardee]

Those who compare Abigail to Bernie typically leave out all the advantages Abigail has over Bernie.

If Bernie could be controlled like Abigail, had a rapid AoE attack, had a shield that negates swarm damage and buffed Willow's attacks by 54%, then we'd have a legitimate comparison.

However, all of that is usually glossed over whenever the two are compared.

 

[YuRinshue]

21 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Those who compare Abigail to Bernie typically leave out all the advantages Abigail has over Bernie.

If Bernie could be controlled like Abigail, had a rapid AoE attack, had a shield that negates swarm damage and buffed Willow's attacks by 54%, then we'd have a legitimate comparison.

However, all of that is usually glossed over whenever the two are compared.

 

I want to return your format intact now, so that you realize your logical errors.
Those who compare Abigail to Bernie often overlook all of Willow's advantages over Wendy.
If Wendy can use 5 powerful fire spells like Willow, possess fast AoE attacks or powerful solo attacks with auto cruising, have a stronger Planar Entity than the player tag and immune Wendy's flame damage, and use a lighter and 20 pieces of wood in her backpack to gain endless rationality and warmth, then we will have a reasonable comparison.
However, whenever comparing the two, all of these are often obscured.

[Lardee]

7 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

I want to return your format intact now, so that you realize your logical errors.
Those who compare Abigail to Bernie often overlook all of Willow's advantages over Wendy.
If Wendy can use 5 powerful fire spells like Willow, possess fast AoE attacks or powerful solo attacks with auto cruising, have a stronger Planar Entity than the player tag and immune Wendy's flame damage, and use a lighter and 20 pieces of wood in her backpack to gain endless rationality and warmth, then we will have a reasonable comparison.
However, whenever comparing the two, all of these are often obscured.

This is a legitimate point which is why the comparison should never be Abigail vs Bernie.

A much better comparison would be Willow vs Wendy.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

This is a legitimate point which is why the comparison should never be Abigail vs Bernie.

A much better comparison would be Willow vs Wendy.

What main downside for current Willow now?Is she hardly to fight shadow creatures with 1.0 modified or simply lose all her core feature when BERNIE! dead?

[YuRinshue]

4 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This is a legitimate point which is why the comparison should never be Abigail vs Bernie.

A much better comparison would be Willow vs Wendy.

Great, now everyone has a consensus that Wendy's own abilities are far inferior to Vila's.
That's why if you want to make any statement that Abigail shouldn't be powerful, you have to first put Wendy's weight on the scale, which should be strong enough.

[Lardee]

12 minutes ago, Steorra said:

What main downside for current Willow now?Is she hardly to fight shadow creatures with 1.0 modified or simply lose all her core feature when BERNIE! dead?

She doesn't have very impactful downsides. 

The difference is that Wendy has much better upsides.

Many bosses can't be set on fire, which prevents Willow from accessing her greatest DPS. 

Wendy on the other hand effectively deals upwards of 160 damage per hit when she's fighting with Shadow Abigail + War Saddle Beefalo and of course she gets free AoE.

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Many bosses can't be set on fire, which prevents Willow from accessing her greatest DPS. 

This doesn't make sense. Core feature of Willow is fire control for small swarm but fire spell for bosses. Many players just simply drop the damage bonus skill from ignited target away. You may just see that skill as a filler thing but not a feature.

9 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Wendy on the other hand effectively deals upwards of 160 damage per hit when she's fighting with Shadow Abigail + War Saddle Beefalo and of course she gets free AoE.

Sorry but I do agree that after planar damage were buffed, general damage of shadow abi or shadow vex debuff should nerf. 

And this could be the price for more survival ability of Abi.

9 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Wendy on the other hand effectively deals upwards of 160 damage per hit when she's fighting with Shadow Abigail + War Saddle Beefalo and of course she gets free AoE.

And, the beefalo have great downside when fighting a knockdown boss. That's why there's rarely to see a beefalo lover. Even some of your Wendy veteran is still dislike the beefalo because of its critical downside. You guys should know how beefalo is balance for Wendy far more than us.

[Lardee]

Just now, Steorra said:

This doesn't make sense. Core feature of Willow is fire control for small swarm but fire spell for bosses. Many players just simply drop the damage bonus skill from ignited target away. You may just see that skill as a filler thing but not a feature.

Not sure why anyone would give up 25% extra damage. I don't and I don't think typical high level Willow players don't. Either way, if you're not using Burning Frenzie, then it makes Willow's DPS even smaller.

Just now, Steorra said:

Sorry but I do agree that after planar damage were buffed, general damage of shadow abi or shadow vex debuff should nerf.

So you want to decrease Wendy's downsides and decrease Wendy's upsides? That's the exact opposite of what skill trees should be doing.

[hyoton123]

Willow's fiery balls...

 

Ooh, a willow weakness topic, I love these. Objectively speaking I'd say Willow's biggest disadvantage is probably how much her sanity varies. Compared to the current beta wendy version specifically with drain resistance, willow's looking at a mere 60% off stat cap alone, and then willow has a slight mod that makes her vary more or less, and has uncontrollable gain near fire, which is generally neutral to good but can be pretty bad for one specific willow mechanic. Wendy just loses much less sanity from drains (half as much?!). That matters for crown usage but also just for generally playing in the game, the part that never shows in youtube cuts but is the most fun part of DST.

 

Willow also has the minor but unavoidable problem with freezing, namely it's easier for her to do so and has much worse consequences. That's not really a problem 3/4 of the year unless you are living in ice crystaleyezer city, but it's definitely not good. 

 

Her other weakness is that her base skills are atrociously boring and conditional. Her skilltree pretty much follows this - it mitigates some of the problems with using bernie, it gives her big damage at the cost of some farming, dealing with cooldowns, cast times, and dealing with aiming in a game that i have never felt is particularly good to aim in. Wendy doesn't have to deal with that. She's comically dependent on a couple power abilities one of which you can't even access without a CC kill on your account. If you like that, you should play her.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Not sure why anyone would give up 25% extra damage. I don't and I don't think typical high level Willow players don't. Either way, if you're not using Burning Frenzie, then it makes Willow's DPS even smaller.

The reason you already clarified. It is hard for daily use. Too short for the buff duration. And many bosses have immunity on fire.

This skill is debatable and should not take it into balance discussion.

15 minutes ago, Lardee said:

So you want to decrease Wendy's downsides and decrease Wendy's upsides? That's the exact opposite of what skill trees should be doing.

I have to say, for those players who want more survival ability for Abi, most of them just feels boring about the Wolfgang-like amounts from shadow abi. The only reason they were reluctant to say their true opinion about shadow abi is lunar abi and survival of abi is not what they expected. (I mean before this patch)

You can't simply nerf Shadow abi but continuously to ask nerfing both Abi survival ability and lunar abi.

13 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Objectively speaking I'd say Willow's biggest disadvantage is probably how much her sanity varies. 

No. This is a simply lie.

I was Webber mainly before. I know the difference between high sanity and low sanity state. They all have their own upside and downside for different scenarios.

Also Wendy sanity resistance has its downside. Yeah one you already mentioned as the crown, another is for enlightened combat.

The sanity state/modifier is just a different feature for different characters. They are not simply "more" or "lesser" like how HP worked.

Even no need to speak of how BERNIE covered the low sanity dangers here.

14 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Willow also has the minor but unavoidable problem with freezing, namely it's easier for her to do so and has much worse consequences. That's not really a problem 3/4 of the year unless you are living in ice crystaleyezer city, but it's definitely not good. 

Already covered by her warmth star skill. Which is same for her "hard for winter" downside.

15 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Her other weakness is that her base skills are atrociously boring and conditional. 

Fine, now Wolfgang has same weakness, even more because his game is ez.

Samely Maxwell has a weakness that he have no skill tree to offer more varieties fun build.

[hyoton123]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

 

No. This is a simply lie.

I was Webber mainly before. I know the difference between high sanity and low sanity state. They all have their own upside and downside for different scenarios.

Also Wendy sanity resistance has its downside.

The sanity state/modifier is just a different feature for different characters. They are not simply "more" or "lesser" like how HP worked.

I guess that means you can stop talking about how Wendy is going to be continually beset by crawling horrors and terrorbeaks, huh? What do you think is the downside for her sanity resistance?

 

Sanity loss (or enlightenment gain) *resistance* is almost always good because you generally want to be at a certain sanity. Fluctuating sanity is the opposite; one of the things I found most annoying about using old bernie in general was the trigger, that and his slow speed. Even post skilltree, bernie's activation is still conditional. In contrast, Webber only has generic interactions with sanity.

 

And more crown shots before having to refill is good 100% of the time. There is no downside. Perhaps this: what do you think is the *upside* for wendy to be insane?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

I guess that means you can stop talking about how Wendy is going to be continually beset by crawling horrors and terrorbeaks, huh? What do you think is the downside for her sanity resistance?

If you think the shadow attack only started when characters in low sanity, then you are right. I have no more time for wasting.

 

6 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

And more crown shots before having to refill is good 100% of the time. There is no downside. Perhaps this: what do you think is the *upside* for wendy to be insane?

Bee crown is the upside especially when you riding a beefalo.

[hyoton123]

16 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Already covered by her warmth star skill. Which is same for her "hard for winter" downside.

Fine, now Wolfgang has same weakness, even more because his game is ez.

Samely Maxwell has a weakness that he have no skill tree to offer more varieties fun build.

It's just the equivalent of burning a tree or using a dwarf star. It doesn't actually solve the problem. (And it actually does pop up in other scenarios, like getting wet.)

 

Wolfgang has to deal with the mightiness meter and max has 75 health and temporarily loses max sanity to activate his advantages. Max is a very well designed high risk high reward character IMO, I think shadow prison is the only real outlier which is a real accomplishment given how much he has going on.

 

I can't stand the mightiness meter, I'm sorry. I've seen enough people complain about stopping playing him because of it. Wolf's weakness is that he has to do chores IMO (even doing bosses is basically a chore), and he has nothing really going on besides damage. Literally everyone has damage nowadays.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

like getting wet.)

Okay finally this make sense for me personally.

I do agree with you that being wet is a completely unavoidable weakness for Willow. Especially when you sailing in early game, in this scenario you can't easily to use your warm star and you may lack of the furnace.

[hyoton123]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

If you think the shadow attack only started when characters in low sanity, then you are right. I have no more time for wasting.

 

Bee crown is the upside especially when you riding a beefalo.

Dead serious question then, when are you fighting shadow creatures? Ruins are totally avoidable and if Wendy is in the ruins *she has no reason to fight shadow creatures.* Besides the chair guy. She can farm infinite fuel and drops from shadow splus. Lunar grotto the gestalts will take care of. And all of this is moot when you get bone helm (which she has easier access to!).

 

Crown shots = enlightened crown. 18 shots vs 30 shots. I'm not sure what you mean by using BQC on a beefalo.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

 Ruins are totally avoidable and if Wendy is in the ruins *she has no reason to fight shadow creatures.* 

No? If you HAVE TO avoid every shadow attack when you in ruins, then it is a downside. Since you lack of options, and the scenarios would not be theoretically every time.

Additionally, have to FLEE resulted frustration for some people.

9 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Crown shots = enlightened crown. 18 shots vs 30 shots. I'm not sure what you mean by using BQC on a beefalo.

Bee crown is far earlier than the enlightened crown. 

Also have to say when you want to use bee crown to recover your sanity in AFW combat, opps you just noticed that you are Wendy now.