Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[kroban]

On 12/13/2024 at 8:28 PM, Nikki Darks said:

It's never been this easy to amass an elixir that costs 40 HP per craft, because now it costs 40HP per up to 3 crafts.

HP is pretty much a 0 cost for Wendy Abigail too, shes THE spider farm character, you can spam tents with silk or even heal yourself out of spider glands...

[Debruh]

3 minutes ago, kroban said:

HP is pretty much a 0 cost for Wendy Abigail too, shes THE spider farm character, you can spam tents with silk or even heal yourself out of spider glands...

Not to mention that you can heal yourself with the elixirs too. Craft a revenant restorative and you turn a spider gland to some fine hp

[Dingle]

In my last playthrough I made 3 cure alls and healed myself with my pile of butterfly wings.

Then I used more butterfly wings to make butter muffins for healing for bee queen.

I should have burned a butterfly wing to make ash for the Sisturn.

[Nikki Darks]

Just to confirm something about this skill.

Abigail with just this skill is tankier than Bernie.

Bernie struggles to fully tank Deerclops.... Abigail destroys stronger bosses. 

Do with this piece of information as you will.

1 minute ago, Nikki Darks said:

Just to confirm something about this skill.

Abigail with just this skill is tankier than Bernie.

Bernie struggles to fully tank Deerclops.... Abigail destroys stronger bosses. 

Do with this piece of information as you will.

I am mentioning this because Bernie's SOLE purpose is to tank. It's why his damage is garbage and he is single target.

[Oompitie]

10 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

 

1. I have a neutral stance on whether the "player tag" is appropriate or not. But what I clearly hope for is to enhance Abby’s survivability. There might be better ways to achieve this.

 

I’m wondering what your thoughts were for the old blessed Sisturn 3 when it came to helping with Abigail’s survivability. As a intermediate player who just started playing Wendy for the first time I do also think there should be more room for mistakes to help learn how to fight with Abigail better, but I feel like giving her a player tag makes the extra room for mistakes feel too generous, especially with armoured Bearger. I propose the idea that lunar flowers raise Abigail’s max health like with the old blessed sisturn 3 that way it will allow more room for mistakes but won’t feel too generous.

[Yifei_]

20 minutes ago, Oompitie said:

I’m wondering what your thoughts were for the old blessed Sisturn 3 when it came to helping with Abigail’s survivability. As a intermediate player who just started playing Wendy for the first time I do also think there should be more room for mistakes to help learn how to fight with Abigail better, but I feel like giving her a player tag makes the extra room for mistakes feel too generous, especially with armoured Bearger. I propose the idea that lunar flowers raise Abigail’s max health like with the old blessed sisturn 3 that way it will allow more room for mistakes but won’t feel too generous.

Old Blessed Sisturn III is quite terrible because it provides "Fake Health," which cannot be restored through normal means. It's just a shield. This makes its practicality quite poor.
If it were changed to increase the health cap by 600 (also known as "True Health"), I personally would accept it.
 

[Nikki Darks]

8 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Old Blessed Sisturn III is quite terrible because it provides "Fake Health," which cannot be restored through normal means. It's just a shield. This makes its practicality quite poor.
If it were changed to increase the health cap by 600 (also known as "True Health"), I personally would accept it.
 

But, that'd be the same outcome no?

Taking half damage from bosses (50% damage reduction) equals having 1200 health. Just that this way it'd apply to everything.

So you're essentially just saying "instead of taking 50% less damage from bosses, she should take 50% less damage from everything".

[WenericMember]

Just now, Nikki Darks said:

But, that'd be the same outcome no?

Taking half damage from bosses (50% damage reduction) equals having 1200 health. Just that this way it'd apply to everything.

So you're essentially just saying "instead of taking 50% less damage from bosses, she should take 50% less damage from everything".

The key difference is the cure-all interaction. Presently, abigails healing is effectively doubled.

[Dingle]

Just now, Nikki Darks said:

But, that'd be the same outcome no?

Taking half damage from bosses (50% damage reduction) equals having 1200 health. Just that this way it'd apply to everything.

So you're essentially just saying "instead of taking 50% less damage from bosses, she should take 50% less damage from everything".

It means that cure all doesn't make her functionally immortal. The 50% lets her outheal anything.

Doubling would be a lot, maybe 900 would work. But yeah, either way, still less powerful than 50% damage protection.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, Nikki Darks said:

But, that'd be the same outcome no?

Taking half damage from bosses (50% damage reduction) equals having 1200 health. Just that this way it'd apply to everything.

So you're essentially just saying "instead of taking 50% less damage from bosses, she should take 50% less damage from everything".

Its just that armor provides boosted healing.  so that 50 percent less damage made it so abby received double healing.  This would be a much better solution since it still means abby is still weak to what she is is normally weak to. while still getting some kind of survivability.

[Nikki Darks]

Ah, thanks for the explanation y'all.

[CremeLover]

21 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

But, that'd be the same outcome no?

Taking half damage from bosses (50% damage reduction) equals having 1200 health. Just that this way it'd apply to everything.

So you're essentially just saying "instead of taking 50% less damage from bosses, she should take 50% less damage from everything".

Even though it has already been answered, the responses are a bit confusing from how they are described, so I'll chime in just in case.

I'll explain with an example:

Deerclops does 150 damage per hit, and it attacks each 4 seconds.
Spectral Cure-All does 20 healing per second => Abigail heals 80 health each 4 seconds.
Therefore, Deerclops does 150-80=70 Damage per 4 seconds to Abigail.

If Abigail has 50% damage reduction:

Deerclops does 150/2=75 damage per hit, and it attacks each 4 seconds.
Spectral Cure-All does 20 healing per second => Abigail heals 80 health each 4 seconds.
Therefore, Deerclops does 75-80=-5. This let's Abigail outheal the damage received by Deerclops while under the effects of Spectral-Cure-All, making her basically immortal as long as you can keep pumping potions for her.

[Soul7k]

I have been going back and forth on how I about this, but upon reviewing again I realized that while it still may be nerfed, in neither of the cases shown was Abigail solo  anything or do more than about a fourth of a bosses damage. Though the durability is substantially better you still need to actually fight the boss. I don't think it is nearly as overpowered as it is being made out to be

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Soul7k said:

I have been going back and forth on how I about this, but upon reviewing again I realized that while it still may be nerfed, in neither of the cases shown was Abigail solo  anything or do more than about a fourth of a bosses damage. Though the durability is substantially better you still need to actually fight the boss. I don't think it is nearly as overpowered as it is being made out to be

There may be a clue to solving this very complicated problem.

I've observed Wendy players, and I think what they're thinking is "I just want to play Wendy with Abigail". They don't want immortal Abigal to kill bosses. They don't even want her to tank. It just seems like they want an easier way to make Abigail not die and to stay with her longer.

However, the problem is that if you use Spectral Cure All Spam on Abigail with the current Player Tag, she becomes harder than BARNIE. but cann't nerf Spectral Cure All, too late.

My solution is this.
"Blessed Sisturn III will give Wendy attacks enemy, enemy get "Reverce Vex", and when that enemy attacks Abigail, Abigail get damage with Player Tag."

I decided that the desire of Wendy players is not to win with Abigail, but to fight with Abigail.

[Soul7k]

29 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

There may be a clue to solving this very complicated problem.

I've observed Wendy players, and I think what they're thinking is "I just want to play Wendy with Abigail". They don't want immortal Abigal to kill bosses. They don't even want her to tank. It just seems like they want an easier way to make Abigail not die and to stay with her longer.

However, the problem is that if you use Spectral Cure All Spam on Abigail with the current Player Tag, she becomes harder than BARNIE. but cann't nerf Spectral Cure All, too late.

My solution is this.
"Blessed Sisturn III will give Wendy attacks enemy, enemy get "Reverce Vex", and when that enemy attacks Abigail, Abigail get damage with Player Tag."

I decided that the desire of Wendy players is not to win with Abigail, but to fight with Abigail.

to be honest we don't even need to jump through hoops to balance her. sure she might take longer to kill than a bernie, but bernie doesn't need to level up. you just drop a new one and keep going. not only this but if you have enough bernies and sewing kits then light him on fire you can just let him fight the boss. something you still cant do with abigail

[Nikki Darks]

7 hours ago, Soul7k said:

to be honest we don't even need to jump through hoops to balance her. sure she might take longer to kill than a bernie, but bernie doesn't need to level up. you just drop a new one and keep going. not only this but if you have enough bernies and sewing kits then light him on fire you can just let him fight the boss. something you still cant do with abigail

There is an elixir that instantly levels up Abby to lvl 3.

[Soul7k]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

There is an elixir that instantly levels up Abby to lvl 3.

I am aware. you still have to then heal her from 0 to 600 which not only requires additional inputs but time, which dropping another burnie doesn't take. It doesn't change my previous statement

[RiceMilk]

19 hours ago, Lardee said:

This is objectively untrue. Wendy can now deal Wolfgang DPS while retaining AoE. That's an advantage/convenience beyond the vast majority of characters. If you want to argue Abigail doesn't give Wendy an advantage/convenience, then I want you to give me a list of bosses that this applies to.

I have already said that achieving it is not the end. The key is how many skills are needed to achieve it, whether it is more troublesome than others, and whether the experience is good or not. The problem now is that even if I could do it with Abigail, I wouldn't want to do it because it's troublesome and boring.

19 hours ago, Lardee said:

There's nothing that says combat characters require more complex maintenance than regular characters. That's just you injecting your subjective opinion. The only thing that combat characters need are advantages over regular characters. 

The result of combat characters having advantages is that they require less maintenance, just like Wolfgang requires fewer weapons and armor.

19 hours ago, Lardee said:

Wendy can defeat bosses faster and suffers less damage compared to other characters.  She has Wolfgang DPS plus AoE.

Assuming Abigail is invincible, she also doesn't have Wolfgang DPS. Moreover, please note that Wolfgang only needs to prepare potatoes to maintain high damage. If you really want to make such a comparison, then give Abigail invincibility first.

19 hours ago, Lardee said:

She was a higher skilled character in regards to beating some bosses. 

I don't think Wendy should be a highly skilled character at all. If you have any questions about this, you can vote.

19 hours ago, Lardee said:

I never made an argument about what abilities Wendy should receive. I made an argument for what weaknesses shouldn't be taken away. My standards are far more objective than yours: character weaknesses shouldn't be removed unless absolutely necessary because weaknesses, like strengths, are what make character gameplay unique. Klei has already given Wendy players multiple high and low skilled solutions to work around her weakness.  If you don't like these solutions, propose more that do not remove her weakness. 

Please note that your standards do not conflict with mine. My standard is: if you don't know what level of ability a character should have, then benchmark it against other characters of the same type. Your standard is: Do not eliminate a character's weaknesses. I don't object to this design concept, the difference between us is that you think Wendy's weakness is that Abigail is prone to death. And I think Wendy's weakness is her personal 0.75 multiplier.

[Dingle]

47 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

I am aware. you still have to then heal her from 0 to 600 which not only requires additional inputs but time, which dropping another burnie doesn't take. It doesn't change my previous statement

I thought so too originally. This isnt true, though:

1. You can use elixirs on Abby when she's unsummoned

2. It takes 7 to 8 seconds to get dead level 1 Abby back to full health with a Cure All

3. If you use Graven on a full health level 1 Abby, she becomes a full health level 3 abby. Full 600 health.

4. After that, you resummon her.

Ta daaaaa

[Soul7k]

21 minutes ago, Dingle said:

snip

even still that is 8 seconds plus applying 2 potions and re-summoning so about 10 seconds or so over instant. the statement is still true

[Dingle]

Just now, Soul7k said:

even still thats 8 seconds plus applying 2 potions so about 10 seconds over instant. the statement is still true

Technically true, sure. But now we're talking about 10 seconds.

And then we'd have to pretend she also can't get more tanky than Bernie, contribute more to damage, and so on.

[Soul7k]

21 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Technically true, sure. But now we're talking about 10 seconds.

And then we'd have to pretend she also can't get more tanky than Bernie, contribute more to damage, and so on.

6 posts above yours

[Dingle]

11 hours ago, Soul7k said:

to be honest we don't even need to jump through hoops to balance her. sure she might take longer to kill than a bernie, but bernie doesn't need to level up. you just drop a new one and keep going. not only this but if you have enough bernies and sewing kits then light him on fire you can just let him fight the boss. something you still cant do with abigail

This one? Saw it. Is this how you play Willow?

You can do this with Abigail and cure alls.

Add gravens if the lunes get nerfed.

[Soul7k]

21 minutes ago, Dingle said:

This one? Saw it. Is this how you play Willow?

You can do this with Abigail and cure alls.

Add gravens if the lunes get nerfed.

I feel like I am talking in circles now

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

I feel like I am talking in circles now

You didn't answer if that is really how you play as Willow. When fighting a boss, do you just bring a lot Bernies and set them on fire, while not attacking the boss at all?

I'm wondering if you actually play the game this way. Or if you're just making a pedantic argument. I ask because I like to assume the best in people, that you're not just trying to make a nonsense argument that doesn't resemble how anyone plays the game.

If you actually play the game this way, I have a lot of followup questions, if you don't mind.