Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[beepbeepbot]

25 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I didn't say that Abigail could defeat the boss on her own. I was making the point that by your logic, there would be nothing wrong with Abigail being able to solo bosses.

Which video are you even referring to?

Yeah, I don't really see a problem with that, although such a skill might not be that interesting, or maybe make the game's lifespan diminish rapidly.
Think about it, according to your point of view, they should remove the player tag and let everyone who plays Wendy practice commanding Abby. But is it possible that I am here to play the game and I should be free to choose my own style. Before the update of the character labels, commanding Abby may be the only option, but after the update, I have another option. More options are obviously a good thing
Also, I can sense a point where you might consider Player tag to be equally destructive as killing a boss in one hit. I don't think so, in order for Abby to survive I need to use a very large number of potions and it takes time for me to collect those.
Still from the earlier example, you can consume a battle helmet to kill a dragonfly, or you can consume a lot of marble armor. Speaking along your lines, it seems like marble armor is also unacceptable, since they only need to hold F to kill the bosses

As for the video, of course it's from your post, showing quite graphically that Abby can't kill the boss on her own.

Anyway, I think your theme is to remove player tags and let the Wendys practice commanding Abby. then I disagree with you because

1. with tagging i still need to prepare a lot of potions to keep abby alive, it's a price i pay, it's not at my fingertips
2. player tagging adds a new playstyle, it's a floor for Wendy's playstyle, and I'm all for the existence of such a floor

[lio516]

Burnie has no rank, restores full durability in a single sewing, 2600 HP, and additional defense, if you have enough sewing tools,  can do the same.  Wendy still needs her own blood to make the potion

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, beepbeepbot said:

As for the video, of course it's from your post, showing quite graphically that Abby can't kill the boss on her own.

I think the video can test more bosses, such as CC Phase II&III, Big Depth Worm, Scrappy Werepig, and so on. I'm curious about them.

[thesooz9000]

5 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

Yeah, I don't really see a problem with that, although such a skill might not be that interesting, or maybe make the game's lifespan diminish rapidly.
Think about it, according to your point of view, they should remove the player tag and let everyone who plays Wendy practice commanding Abby. But is it possible that I am here to play the game and I should be free to choose my own style. Before the update of the character labels, commanding Abby may be the only option, but after the update, I have another option. More options are obviously a good thing
Also, I can sense a point where you might consider Player tag to be equally destructive as killing a boss in one hit. I don't think so, in order for Abby to survive I need to use a very large number of potions and it takes time for me to collect those.
Still from the earlier example, you can consume a battle helmet to kill a dragonfly, or you can consume a lot of marble armor. Speaking along your lines, it seems like marble armor is also unacceptable, since they only need to hold F to kill the bosses

As for the video, of course it's from your post, showing quite graphically that Abby can't kill the boss on her own.

Anyway, I think your theme is to remove player tags and let the Wendys practice commanding Abby. then I disagree with you because

1. with tagging i still need to prepare a lot of potions to keep abby alive, it's a price i pay, it's not at my fingertips
2. player tagging adds a new playstyle, it's a floor for Wendy's playstyle, and I'm all for the existence of such a floor

The problem with blessed sisturn III is that it makes ignoring abigail's positioning and just letting her face tank the optimal strat against most bosses, this is an awful way to remove a character's downside and change what made them different from the rest of the cast, having to manage abigail's position / health, it's what made boss fights as wendy different from every other character, now you can just play the fight like wilson, whilst just clicking on the spectral cure-all button every 30 seconds.

[beepbeepbot]

4 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

The problem with blessed sisturn III is that it makes ignoring abigail's positioning and just letting her face tank the optimal strat against most bosses, this is an awful way to remove a character's downside and change what made them different from the rest of the cast, having to manage abigail's position / health, it's what made boss fights as wendy different from every other character, now you can just play the fight like wilson, whilst just clicking on the spectral cure-all button every 30 seconds.

Well, yeah, kind of. This is actually a deeper problem: the skill tree itself is uninteresting. Lack of variety. Maybe player tag isn't a good idea, but in this particular case, it is. I can change my play style a little bit because of it.

[thesooz9000]

Just now, beepbeepbot said:

Well, yeah, kind of. This is actually a deeper problem: the skill tree itself is uninteresting. Lack of variety. Maybe player tag isn't a good idea, but in this particular case, it is. I can change my play style a little bit because of it.

What I hope for is more buffs to team spirit, this is something that actually gives you a new way to play Wendy, being able to pick and choose where abigail goes, which is a huge buff to positioning her and her survive-ability, without just being slapping a player tag on abigail by putting 4 blossoms in a sisturn.

[beepbeepbot]

2 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

What I hope for is more buffs to team spirit, this is something that actually gives you a new way to play Wendy, being able to pick and choose where abigail goes, which is a huge buff to positioning her and her survive-ability, without just being slapping a player tag on abigail by putting 4 blossoms in a sisturn.

Agree. That branch is the one I'm most optimistic about. The reason why I care so much about this player tag is that the other branches are so boring that if Abby loses the player tag, she will not be much different from before (although the shadow branch makes her a bit Wolfgang, but I really don't think it's interesting)

[Lardee]

15 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

Yeah, I don't really see a problem with that, although such a skill might not be that interesting, or maybe make the game's lifespan diminish rapidly.

 

Right this is why I said I disagree with your view, but respect the fact that you stand by your principles.

15 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

Think about it, according to your point of view, they should remove the player tag and let everyone who plays Wendy practice commanding Abby. But is it possible that I am here to play the game and I should be free to choose my own style. Before the update of the character labels, commanding Abby may be the only option, but after the update, I have another option. More options are obviously a good thing

I never said anyone needs to practice commanding Abby or anything. Wendy has other ways to fight bosses than mastering Team Spirit. More options are not necessarily a good thing if one option is so dominant compared to the rest and removes a character's weakness.

 

15 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

Also, I can sense a point where you might consider Player tag to be equally destructive as killing a boss in one hit. I don't think so, in order for Abby to survive I need to use a very large number of potions and it takes time for me to collect those.
Still from the earlier example, you can consume a battle helmet to kill a dragonfly, or you can consume a lot of marble armor. Speaking along your lines, it seems like marble armor is also unacceptable, since they only need to hold F to kill the bosses

I don't think player tag is equally as destructive as killing a boss in one hit. It's just really bad because it eliminates the character's weakness. 

Marble Armor is doesn't eliminate Wendy's character-specific weakness and one pipspook hunt is the equivalent of half a day of invincibility. Tell me how much marble armor, healing and football helmets would be required to tank a boss for half a day.

 

15 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

As for the video, of course it's from your post, showing quite graphically that Abby can't kill the boss on her own.

Anyway, I think your theme is to remove player tags and let the Wendys practice commanding Abby. then I disagree with you because

1. with tagging i still need to prepare a lot of potions to keep abby alive, it's a price i pay, it's not at my fingertips
2. player tagging adds a new playstyle, it's a floor for Wendy's playstyle, and I'm all for the existence of such a floor

1. The price not only eliminates Wendy's weakness, but it's negligible. A single pipspook yields around 6-10 Spectral Cure Alls.

2. This is objectively false. Abigail management is what made Wendy unique. Without it, her playstyle becomes identical to Wilson and Wolfgang. This is why character weaknesses should not be removed.

[WenericMember]

28 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Alright, this has been bothering me long enough. 

Why is Wolfgang brought up often as a companion for Shadow Abigail? Is it because she deals double damage, or because her and Wendy can reach his levels in DPS?

I'd like the complete math of all possible scenarios, please, while also understanding that beefalos remove Wendy's downside already and shouldn't be the standard, and Cursed Vexation isn't an elixir that should be expected to be applied 24/7.

Its basically that lol. Shadow path produces wolfgang levels of damage. Which is weird because in theory unlike wolfgang wendy has to work for it.

[beepbeepbot]

36 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This is why character weaknesses should not be removed

Well, I have to say that I've had some misunderstandings about you, misunderstandings that have influenced some of my judgments. Anyways, what do you think of the skill trees they've already rolled out, and are they meeting your needs (i.e. Make strengths more visible instead of removing weaknesses)?

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, beepbeepbot said:

Well, I have to say that I've had some misunderstandings about you, misunderstandings that have influenced some of my judgments. Anyways, what do you think of the skill trees they've already rolled out, and are they meeting your needs (i.e. Make strengths more visible instead of removing weaknesses)?

I don't know, not many of the characters had major weaknesses quite like Wendy. The most comparable example would be Woodie since his wereforms have really impactful weaknesses. I'm happy that Klei didn't remove those.

Other than that, I don't really have much to say specifically about weaknesses. Is there an example you'd like to talk about?

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

That's why I want the math, obviously. 

Are beefalos and Cursed Vexation required to reach those levels? Are we in agreement that having both of those active and available shouldn't be expected to be the standard way of playing?

I need more detailed answers. 

Yea, sadly i dont have them

[thesooz9000]

13 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Alright, cool. Anyone that does?

Hey, Since you're asking

 

Night shade nostrum lasts 2 days, and cursed vexation lasts 2 days.

So having them on for an entire boss fight is not out of the ordinary

With abigail with cursed vexation attacking the same target as wendy, who is on an ornery beefalo, wendy can deal 137 damage per hit, whilst abigail deals 47 damage per hit.

Using a hambat instead of a ornery beefalo still means you are doing 92 damage per hit as wendy, whilst abigail deals 47 damage per hit

Assuming that wendy hits twice per second, and abigail hits once a second (not sure how much she hits per second exactly) , we can average a dps of 321 dps with an ornery beefalo, and 231 with a hambat. hope that helps!

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, thesooz9000 said:

Hey, Since you're asking

 

Night shade nostrum lasts 2 days, and cursed vexation lasts 2 days.

So having them on for an entire boss fight is not out of the ordinary

With abigail with cursed vexation attacking the same target as wendy, who is on an ornery beefalo, wendy can deal 137 damage per hit, whilst abigail deals 47 damage per hit.

Using a hambat instead of a ornery beefalo still means you are doing 92 damage per hit as wendy, whilst abigail deals 47 damage per hit

I assume thats factoring in planar resistance?

[thesooz9000]

Just now, WenericMember said:

I assume thats factoring in planar resistance?

Oh no, that was on a punching bag dummy, not an actual planar enemy.

[thesooz9000]

2 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

So you were only half-listening? Cool.

I guess I got my answer, nonetheless. 

I see, you can opt into the beta by right clicking on dst in steam and clicking properties then betas, if you would like to test for yourself.

[thesooz9000]

2 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

I am certain someone else will appreciate your condescending attitude, but I am not one of them.

I advise you to cut that out with me.

 

8 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

So you were only half-listening? Cool.

I guess I got my answer, nonetheless. 

I do appreciate the half-listening comment however.

[Xplan]

Just now, Fitzee said:

@Lardee I trust that you can actually answer this. I don't need the answers right away, if you don't have the time right now, but having every scenario accounted for would be preferable. 

a real glass, but not a real cannon......

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

@Lardee I trust that you can actually answer this. I don't need the answers right away, if you don't have the time right now, but having every scenario accounted for would be preferable. 

Can you be more specific about the question? "Every scenario accounted for" is quite general.

[Debruh]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Come on, surely you're smart enough to figure it out.

Common weapon used, best weapon used, beefalo/no beefalo, Cursed Vexation/no Cursed Vexation, brightshade helm/void cowl, etc.

All you talk about is combat regarding Wendy; it shouldn't be hard for you to provide the math for her various scenarios regarding it.

25 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

I see, you can opt into the beta by right clicking on dst in steam and clicking properties then betas, if you would like to test for yourself.

28 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

So you were only half-listening? Cool

Is it just me, or is everyone starting to become slightly condescending with their posts?

[thesooz9000]

Just now, Debruh said:

Is it just me, or is everyone starting to become slightly condescending with their posts?

Might be the case, haven't slept in a while, should be more mature about this.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

Is it just me, or is everyone starting to become slightly condescending with their posts?

Hard to say. There are other threads where we're starting to cultivate discussion, so Im focusing on that.

[SilverSpoon]

52 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I don't know, not many of the characters had major weaknesses quite like Wendy. The most comparable example would be Woodie since his wereforms have really impactful weaknesses. I'm happy that Klei didn't remove those.

Um... I think immunity of full moon forced transformation and no penalties health (-20) and sanity(-15) for eating Idols pretty much removed the risk to Woodie. What are your talking the "really impactful weaknesses" that are left?  Is it that wereforms can't pick up things?

And also, Wendy still have x0.75 damage modifier.

[Lardee]

7 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Come on, surely you're smart enough to figure it out.

Common weapon used, best weapon used, beefalo/no beefalo, Cursed Vexation/no Cursed Vexation, brightshade helm/void cowl, etc.

All you talk about is combat regarding Wendy; it shouldn't be hard for you to provide the math for her various scenarios regarding it.

Nah I'm not putting in that work. If you have a specific question, I'll be glad to answer.

[beepbeepbot]

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

I don't know, not many of the characters had major weaknesses quite like Wendy. The most comparable example would be Woodie since his wereforms have really impactful weaknesses. I'm happy that Klei didn't remove those.

Other than that, I don't really have much to say specifically about weaknesses. Is there an example you'd like to talk about?

    Well, this actually involves some Klei design issues.    
    I'm not quite sure about your thoughts on Woodie's weaknesses. What do you think its weakness is? Not being able to use items while transforming, empty hunger at the end of transformation or something else?
    Anyway, I'll say what I think about Klei's updated set of skill trees, and many skill trees have quite a few QoL aspects, such as the fact that Wortox can not be hostile by neutral creatures if it's “Nice” enough. Or, Woodie can not be forced to transform when the moon is full. Including eating statues won't minus blood and extending the duration of transformations, retain some hunger at the end of the transformation and so on. I think klei is trying to weaken their weaknesses. More or less. Can't deny it, can't it? And the same is true in the case of Wendy. They probably won't consider this (avoiding nerf the weakness). So Player tag was added.
    I admit that your idea is good and can better bring out the characteristics of the character. But the problem is that they did not provide a satisfactory solution (in terms of bringing out the characteristics). Adding the Player tag is the best proof. Before the Player tag was added, it was difficult for a normal Abby to survive a boss fight. Commanding her is indeed a (and only) way to play, but it obviously requires a lot of practice. Bernie is another negative example. Its health is almost costless. You can just right-click it to make it full of health, and you can even mass-produce it. In short, that’s asking too much of Wendy. Not everyone has the energy to do that. Added player tag to add a floor for Wendies, that is, you can fight side by side with Abby, as long as you have enough medicine. Although this does not reflect more features, it at least provides new options
    So, my point is that since Klei has already weakened some of the character's weaknesses, they shouldn't stop at Wendy.... unless they can come up with a better solution, such as giving me more benefits or reducing the energy required to command Abby. Until a better solution comes out, I think it is inappropriate to directly remove the Player tag. This makes Wendy the same as before.
    Also, I think the biggest problem with the current skill tree is that it is boring, has no characteristics, and does not give me anything that catches my eye. Teamwork is the only branch I think is okay, although the inexplicable shared CD they gave is totally unreasonable.
    You will notice that my reply is quite late, which actually proves that I am tired. I still have trivial matters to deal with in real life for now, so I don’t know when the next reply will be. But if there is a chance, I hope that our discussion can continue.