suggestion [Edited for clarity] On Gestalt and Shadow Abigail theme, as well as alignment skills themselves (problems and suggestions)

[Pig Princess]

Before I write anything, I would like to emphasize how much I like the way of obtaining lunar and shadow power for Abigail: the former is thematically connected to full moon magic and the latter has the theme of sacrifice and dark magic ritual, as well as being a reference to pre-rework DST Wendy. I like it both thematically and mechanically, and by latter I mean commitment to lunar Abigail and being able to switch forms only in very specific conditions (every 10 days usually), as well as needing living animals and synergy with warren wreath, fish farms and some other survivors. I hope it doesn’t change (although I wouldn’t mind if creatures killed in Wendy’s inventory dropped souls if Wortox is nearby for nice synergy).

This is the summary of the post:

-          Make Gestalt Abigail deal respectable damage (while keeping her fragile) if Wendy herself participates in a fight a lot. For example, reverse vex could be applied (with planar damage mechanic taken into consideration). [Edit for clarity] Wendy should not be able to just command Abigail and win the fight, the idea is for them to fight together, just with damage dealing part shifted more towards Abigail. 

-          Shadow Abigail could use an adjustment so her buff doesn’t loose as much efficiency against entities with planar protection. Or buff could involve something other than extra damage.

-          Elixir from shadow alignment needs to be changed from % buff to extra planar damage, or double planar damage dealt by current weapon. Or idea should be scapped and something more interesting should be added.

-          Elixir from lunar alignment needs to convert all of Abigail’s damage to planar.

And now onto the problems I see with affinity line design.

General comment about both path.

Spoiler

While I understand the desire to separate lunar and shadow Abigail functionally, I think there is no need to put them along the “commitment and maintenance” axis. Specifically, instead of lunar Abigail requiring less management and providing less benefit while surviving easier, while shadow Abigail doubling down on existing playstyle, I think it would be more interesting if shadow Abigail provided even more support while remaining fragile, while lunar Abigail could herself turn into main source of damage while being worse support, but requiring Wendy to turn into support, and require to be a really good one for Abigail to shine. After all, since Wendy rework she has been duo character rather than Wes with a tweak, meaning that it’s not really Wendy we are playing, but rather both Wendy and Abigail, therefore it would be interesting and fitting to have an option to play Wendy&Abigail as damage dealer Wendy and support Abigail and support Wendy and damage dealing Abigail. Abigail may be dead, but why should it stop her from being the one who leads the charge (in case lunar form)?

Gestalt Abigail.

Spoiler

I don’t advocate for nerf rollback of lunar Abigail to previous version. Instead I would like her to keep her fragility during attack, be perfectly targetable by creatures, but scale her damage really heavily based on how much Wendy participated in the fight. For example, Wendy could apply reverse vex effect where Abigail would deal the more damage/attacks per charge the more hits were dealt to target during her attack cooldown. For potential 400-500 damage per hit it could require Wendy to attack continuously all the time between attacks (6-10 attacks?), while any additional hits could give even higher damage, promoting usage of celestial crown, brightshade staff and team work with other players. Amount of attacks Abigail does could grow even faster past this point, maybe even applying some extra effects once she actually hits an enemy, so the more she holds up (while summoned), the more damage she deals compared to average dps, promoting picking time when to strike and reward player with overall faster kill. Normal vex that is applied by Abigail for Wendy would need to be removed though. Since planar doesn’t work really good with single instances of high damage, Abigail could do rapid multiple attacks with total damage of around 400 based on Wendy’s participation much like Crab King stats change in tiers, i.e. 1-3 attack could give 1 attack of roughly 100 damage, 4-6 – 200, up to 400 or even higher if player manages to make target to receive even more hits as long as Wendy herself did at least 1 attack. The more charges Abigail does, the faster they could be, so overall attack animation is not stretched enough for Abigail to kill herself and player is properly rewarded without necessity to make her escape, but one could strategise within tiers of hits.

Shadow Abigail.

Spoiler

Shadow Abigail is generally fine as is, but she could use some tweaks to existing playstyle and specific buffs as well. For example, instead of doing 80 damage while in shadow form at night as a single instance of damage – which translates into only 55 damage against lunar-aligned entities with planar protection, - she could deal 40 damage with 2 times higher attack speed, which would help with planar mobs. Or shadow buff could give her wider range and aggro priority, while converting damage she and Wendy deals into her own health (with a factor of much less than one, or she would be invincible). Alternatively, shadow Abigail could have fatigue aura, where potentially she could reduce attack speed (not movement speed though) of mob/boss and/or brings stun phase closer (less dodges needed, less planar hits, less time to burn, less resistance to elemental attacks is built up, etc.).

Cursed vexation (shadow affinity elixir).

Spoiler

The main problem lies within affinity elixirs though. The more damage is dealt in a single hit, the more it is reduced by planar entity protection; therefore shadow affinity elixir design is questionable. Why would Wendy need even more % multiplier when her pre-rift gameplay is fine already and damage is great? Why is branch that is supposed to help with planar follows the route that is counterproductive to fight planar entities (buff to physical damage of single hits)? Wendy doesn’t need 137 damage pre-rift, she needs post-rift debuff from Abigail for extra piercing damage, like +20 planar instead of 1.3x from vex, or just double planar damage that Wendy deals with weapon currently. The transition from non-planar options for pre-rift enemies (101 damage for ornery beefalo with war saddle, no extra vex) to post-rift enemies with planar weapons (with 66 damage for ornery beefalo with nightmare saddle, no extra vex) leads to considerably less damage, which skilltree is supposed to fix. However, multiplier to physical damage is only going to make the difference more pronounced, i.e. worsen the problem. I suppose it is an attempt to make fighting on foot more viable than on beefalo; ok, but then why does Wendy with shadow reaper and void cowl deal up to 86 damage without this new elixir, while with extra elixir it’s 92? With shadow affinity against lunar-aligned boss it’s 93 and 102 damage respectively. 6 and 9 damage is meaningless, especially at this point, it makes me feel dumb for using it, especially considering that just picking an affinity makes roughly the same impact. And yes +20 planar under debuff is almost a copy effect of one of Walter’s ammo, but why is that a problem? +Y planar damage is equivalent of 1.3x modifier to physical damage, it suits Wendy’s mechanics. But I would take more interesting effect any time, even if that means just extra material that enemy drops under special vex, because – unpopular opinion incoming - for me even brightshade sword against Armored Bearger as Wendy without Abigail and without affinity is enough because of the stun mechanic.

Luminous wrath (lunar affinity elixir).

Spoiler

I don’t have much to say about lunar affinity elixir other than it feels inconsequential and needlessly complicated. If it converted all Abigail’s damage in planar damage in both ghost and gestalt form with +10 additional planar for ghost form and +whatever for gestalt form, I would prefer that because I would like Abigail to be able to kill lunar frogs in 2 hits (just like regular ones) with both nightshade nostrum and affinity elixir, as well as Abigail to deal more damage in gestalt form to planar entities for the playstyle where Wendy focuses on support and Abigail is THE sniper of the team.

 

[1007954611]

支持

[Yifei_]

I strongly support your point of view. To add, I believe that the transformation conditions for Lunar Abigail also need to be optimized; the current conditions for full moon and new moon transformations are too stringent.

[Pig Princess]

While I like that one needs to think carefully when to transform ghost Abigail into Gestalt form, I have to admit that situation when moonstorm is active or Wickerbottom continuously makes every night full moon (beneficial to most players in most situations) leads to Wendy being unable to transform Gestalt Abigal back to ghost form. Since Gestalt Abigail is not a strict upgrade (and should not be), something must be done to preserve flexibility and this interesting dynamic of switching between forms available to Wendy.

[Pig Princess]

What if moon dial could be locked into particular magic state corresponding to particular moon phase during it and stay like that even after moon phase changes? It would still require to experience at least one full moon/new moon to gain such properties in the first place, but so long as all surviviors can access such technology, there would be no conflict between those who like to leave moon storm open or make every night full moon through book, and Wendy players who would like to preserve flexibility while going lunar route. And if I happen to play as Wickerbottom on public server, I could build and lock moon dial myself for potential future Wendies, so it's important for this action to be available for anyone. 

It could require some decently expensive resources, but different moon dial states could provide minor benefits to other survivors, so there is an incentive to do such thing for other characters aside from pure altruism. 

[Yifei_]

3 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

What if moon dial could be locked into particular magic state corresponding to particular moon phase during it and stay like that even after moon phase changes? It would still require to experience at least one full moon/new moon to gain such properties in the first place, but so long as all surviviors can access such technology, there would be no conflict between those who like to leave moon storm open or make every night full moon through book, and Wendy players who would like to preserve flexibility while going lunar route. And if I happen to play as Wickerbottom on public server, I could build and lock moon dial myself for potential future Wendies, so it's important for this action to be available for anyone. 

Moon dial is always no water in the cave. I think this might be a good way to transform Abigail back.

[Pig Princess]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

Moon dial is always no water in the cave. I think this might be a good way to transform Abigail back.

But it's not working in the caves lore-wise, and in general in the caves moon phases have no effect, new moon or full moon. I actually think there should be more unique things to new moon aside from Abigail transformation and shadow pieces, and I don't like the idea of new moon being reduced to 1 minute trip to cave while full moon is special,so I have to disagree here.

[arubaro]

9 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

While I like that one needs to think carefully when to transform ghost Abigail into Gestalt form, I have to admit that situation when moonstorm is active or Wickerbottom continuously makes every night full moon (beneficial to most players in most situations) leads to Wendy being unable to transform Gestalt Abigal back to ghost form. Since Gestalt Abigail is not a strict upgrade (and should not be), something must be done to preserve flexibility and this interesting dynamic of switching between forms available to Wendy.

Didnt tested but wouldn't be enough to simply use the dial in the caves in these specific scenarios?

Edit. Nvm, i just saw your response 

[Pig Princess]

Edited original post for clarity. Idea was not to bring back gameplay where Abigail wins the fight with some commands and elixirs, where Wendy keeps safe distance. It was in line of sisters fighting together, just in different style than usually.