The biggest problem of Wendy's skill tree is that there is no core

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

All skills are small optimizations.

These don't completely solve Wendy's biggest problem.

It didn't bring a new mechanism either.

This is the reason why we want to remake the skill tree.

[yinjiu019]

If Wendy gets the current skill tree update content
Will she really be happy...?
Maybe she will cry in the corner...

[HowlVoid]

The whole point of skill tree, in my opinion, is to make small customizations.

So in other words, they've succeeded.

She has more versatility in 1v1 combat with Gestalt Abigail and the new potion that revives Abigail.

She was given a large power boost with nightmare Abigail without lowering the skill ceiling.

She has more utility when Abigail is not present by self healing and dark vision via potions.

She was given qol skill to improve multi-player interactions by giving her her own personal set of graveyards that other Wendy's do directly not compete with.

She was given a personal stash of self-creating nightmare fuel via dark petals and sanity protection to ease the interaction of nightmares without outright removing the weakness.

What I'm constantly hearing is people wanting Wendy to almost be a whole new game all by herself. This isnt dress up Wendy the video game. She doesn't need a complete overhaul, I'm very confused by your statements.

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

solve Wendy's biggest problem.

But she has no problems.

[Peasant]

4 minutes ago, Evelo said:

But she has no problems.

Emmm…How did you managed to keep Abigail alive when facing the lunar bear, deerclops, and varg? I'm talking about pre-skilltree version

[Evelo]

1 minute ago, YXukun said:

Emmm…How did you managed to keep Abigail alive when facing the lunar bear, deerclops, and varg? I'm talking about pre-skilltree version

Well pre-skill tree, I didnt. But with the skills in I don't even care about them I just have the ability to unsummon her with keybinds instead of punching her. So I just despawn her when an attack is soon to land. No skills needed.

She can tank varg decently well if given Distilled Vengeance too. Not like amazingly mind you but enough for it to not be too much of an issue. Deerclops is significantly easier with the ability to unsummon her via keybinds rather than punching. Bearger is still rough I will admit but you can kill bearger just 25% slower and it's fine. You don't need abigail in every situation, just grab a Brightshade Sword and do it manually.

[DVGMedia]

Skill trees usually help with building up what a character already does.
Alot were easy like willow getting more powerful burns  and bernie getting more tank.

Wendys power was always about safety and combat. In order to combat with wendy you had to have proper positioning.
Positioning and controlling abigail is the main thing about wendy. as being able to work with your sister is what gives more power.
There are some very notable things about her tree that kind of breaks that aspect of working together with your sister to overcome the obstacles.
And I think thats just kind of what people want.
We want to be able to command abigail better than we currently can now so that way we can help fight our downsides.
None of what people want is about super maxing damage.
We just really want to be able to play our depressive girl with her ghostly sister. Being able to do more with abigail.  like move her control her  have her do things we want her to do within her mind.

Potions are there only as a failsafe if we as players mess up. But right now Its kind of being treated as if they are mandatory for later in the game. Which shouldn't really be the case I feel.  If The player is good enough they shouldnt need to be constantly applying potions. And thats where the 2 playstyles split i feel.

Thats why i think gabi kind of fails now as a seperate playstyle for wendy.She kind of doesn't really mesh well with the dynamic wendy already has.
And I know the skill trees usually provide a different way to play compared to what is normally there that is what Gabi is supposed to be. But she doesn't really feel fun to play.
And I think thats all that really matters now.
is that is it fun? And thats always subjective. It was kind of funny to see her doing 500 damage to enemies.
I think since she is supposed to be a gestalt  And gestalts make players drowsy  She can be more of a support transformation.  making her attacks provide a slowdown or something like how gestalts make players groggy.  And still just give her a Aoe Dash.  Especially now since  the damage is lowered already now.
There really is alot more that could be done to support gabi. But That form is not ready for release.
 

[Peasant]

Just now, Evelo said:

Well pre-skill tree, I didnt.

That is her problem. The skilltree is expected to solve such problems. And the lunar Abi before this update solved it, while this update brought the problem back. Though, lunar Abi being the only solution makes me feel…wrong.

5 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Bearger is still rough I will admit but you can kill bearger just 25% slower and it's fine. You don't need abigail in every situation, just grab a Brightshade Sword and do it manually.

And that's the problem too. I think that, a character's speciality should work well under all circumstances, that's why it's called speciality.,For Wendy her speciality is fighting with Abigail, and she, or to say, the average players should be able to do this under all circumstances.

[Lee lol]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Well pre-skill tree, I didnt. But with the skills in I don't even care about them I just have the ability to unsummon her with keybinds instead of punching her. So I just despawn her when an attack is soon to land. No skills needed.

She can tank varg decently well if given Distilled Vengeance too. Not like amazingly mind you but enough for it to not be too much of an issue. Deerclops is significantly easier with the ability to unsummon her via keybinds rather than punching. Bearger is still rough I will admit but you can kill bearger just 25% slower and it's fine. You don't need abigail in every situation, just grab a Brightshade Sword and do it manually.

But isn't the skill tree supposed to help the character better adapt to the Rift version? And now it seems that Gestalt didn't do a good enough job at this point, and when it came to fighting the Moon Bear, she was more of a drag and couldn't help me more

[Evelo]

33 minutes ago, YXukun said:

I think that, a character's speciality should work well under all circumstances, that's why it's called speciality.

If it worked in ALL circumstances that isn't special. That is generic. Specialty is focusing on one particular aspect. "to concentrate one's efforts in an activity, field, or practice"

You call a "handy man" for general run of the mill work. You call an electrician to work on electrical stuff. You call a Computer Technician if you want work on specifically a computer. You call a Hardware Engineer that specializes in GPUs if you want someone knowledgeable in specifically GPU repair/manufacturing.

See how you can keep going deeper and deeper? Wendy falls more in that Computer Technician range in her abilities. While Wilson is the Handyman. Warly is the Hardware Engineer (of cooking). Hope that makes sense.

36 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

But isn't the skill tree supposed to help the character better adapt to the Rift version? And now it seems that Gestalt didn't do a good enough job at this point, and when it came to fighting the Moon Bear, she was more of a drag and couldn't help me more

I don't think so personally. Maybe for certain rift situations sure but not all. It would help if Klei actually talked about design philosophy. It helps so much to get everyone on board. If I remember correctly skill trees are meant to teach players about the game. But that certainly isn't working given the numerous complexities and the lack of actual explanations. The Scrapbook is much better at that than skill trees.

[Peasant]

7 minutes ago, Evelo said:

If it worked in ALL circumstances that isn't special. That is generic. Specialty is focusing on one particular aspect. "to concentrate one's efforts in an activity, field, or practice"

You call a "handy man" for general run of the mill work. You call an electrician to work on electrical stuff. You call a Computer Technician if you want work on specifically a computer. You call a Hardware Engineer that specializes in GPUs if you want someone knowledgeable in specifically GPU repair/manufacturing.

See how you can keep going deeper and deeper? Wendy falls more in that Computer Technician range in her abilities. While Wilson is the Handyman. Warly is the Hardware Engineer (of cooking). Hope that makes sense.

What are you talking about? What you say should be the difference between vocations, I don't think it has any connection with the specialities of game characters

Like, Wigfrid's always avaliable for a song during a battle, Wormwood's always unable to eat food for healings, Wortox can always teleport with souls, and so on. In Wendy's case, her speciality is fighting with Abigail, then the average players should always be able to do this with their skills

[Evelo]

6 minutes ago, YXukun said:

In Wendy's case, her speciality is fighting with Abigail, then the average players should always be able to do this with their skills

Yeah, and they can. Doesn't mean it is well suited for her. Not every character is capable of easily handling every situation. Is what it is. But that's just my opinion. We can disagree no big deal. Is what it is.
 

Edit: Something I forgot to mention: Wormwood as you said can't heal using food. I love that downside. it is awesome and why I play him. However with the skills allowing passive healing via the Photosynthesis I was really really upset by that skill being added. I wanted klei to better enforce his weakness when healing. Sure it isn't hard to heal out of combat with compost and rot, sleeping ,etc. But this just gave it to him for free. No cost (outside of skills). I personally think it is awesome when characters struggle in certain situations. It means there is still challenge and adversity. Something to conquer even against the odds!

[Peasant]

2 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Yeah, and they can. Doesn't mean it is well suited for her. Not every character is capable of easily handling every situation. Is what it is. But that's just my opinion. We can disagree no big deal. Is what it is.

Maybe it's my english level but...Sorry I couldn't understand what you are saying

[Evelo]

1 minute ago, YXukun said:

Maybe it's my english level but...Sorry I couldn't understand what you are saying

No worries. Sorry I don't speak your language, truly. I wish I knew more because language barriers are difficult.

Thank you for using English though. It is very much appreciated.

[webberer]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

The whole point of skill tree, in my opinion, is to make small customizations.

No it is not 

[Mike23Ua]

14 hours ago, Evelo said:

But she has no problems.

This is false, she has quite a few problems.. 

I can not play in betas, but that does not mean I shouldn’t have any rights to voice my opinions and be heard.

Currently Wendys Skill Tree revolves almost if not entirely around “Multiplayer” or playing the game on a certain setting because of Tombstones, Skeletons & Ghosts.

You can never create additional GMBW in a world where you can’t become a skeleton, and the perk for “Vengeful Spirit” where dead players can wreck havoc on the living world for a few moments, only works when you can become a Ghost, and will not work on Wilderness Mode, or worlds on hardcore setting where saves get instantly deleted upon death.

I made a suggestion that fixes this though and allows Solo, Wilderness & Hardcore Mode players able to get skeletons and take advantage of the vengeful spirit perk.

The Suggestion was to make hired AI Followers near Wendy that “die” drop a Skeleton at their death location for however long the “Vengeful Spirit” perk lasts, this will allow Wendy players to actually be able to use Vengeful Spirit by relying on AI Followers if playing Solo or “no Ghost” type modes.

the AI Skeletons can be walked across and trampled (they’re fragile!) but during the time that a hired AI Follower is turned into a Ghost (having died within the last 30 seconds) this gives Wendy time to turn their dropped Skeletons into GMBW.

If there’s no Wendy nearby when they die, they won’t drop skeletons or become a spooky ghost (same as how Bernie won’t enlarge to BERNIE! If no Willow is nearby)

Skeletons will last for however long the vengeful ghost perk lasts, and after that the AI Ghost will Haunt their own skeleton and it’ll crumble away to dust.

I know this seems like a lot of Work, but Whoever designed Wolfgang’s Skill Tree had the right idea when they allowed Hired AI Followers to be able to boost his sanity (for being around friends) and take advantage of his coach whistle perks.

I don’t normally ping developers, but some of Wendy’s skill tree needs to be accessible to Solo Players/Wilderness Mode players and currently… It’s Not. @Jason

Hope I do not disturb you and your work by pinging you. Apologies if I have. 

[Koomin]

This whole Abigail dying vs lunar bearger argument showing that the skill tree is a failure argument makes no sense. 

Characters having bosses that they are strong against and bosses that they are weak against is one of the cool parts of having different character designs.  If lunar bearger actually did counter Wendy and was a really hard boss for Wendy specifically that would be completely fine.

That is not even the case though. This "huge downside" is taking about 12 more hits to kill the boss because she does approximately 9% reduced damage because of her downside (assuming using planar gear and not even bringing Abigail to the fight).  Abigail should easily make up for this tiny reduction and more before she dies if you do bring her, even if you put in no effort to keep her alive.  Her dying is not the end of the world.

On top of even that, you can keep her alive with some effort and summoning/unsummoning, as others have shown.

This whole point about lunar bearger is incredibly overblown.

[Catuna_]

Wendy's perks are all Abigail buffs -> people complain that there's no wendy perks -> Klei adds wendy perks -> "There is no core" (it's still mainly Abigail perks)

17 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

All skills are small optimizations.

This is just wrong, her affinities, her new crown, her ability to make 2 or 3 potions, her new controls that make it so much easier to keep her alive...

17 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

It didn't bring a new mechanism either.

ability to replace/place graves, drink elixirs as players, ability to overheal abigail's max health, new elixirs, ability to control where abigail goes directly and the controls, abigail transformations... yeah... no  new mechanics... sure...

I'm so sorry but it just genuinely feels like you're saying things without thinking...

[aidankocherhans]

 

16 hours ago, YXukun said:

And that's the problem too. I think that, a character's speciality should work well under all circumstances, that's why it's called speciality.,For Wendy her speciality is fighting with Abigail, and she, or to say, the average players should be able to do this under all circumstances.

Wendy's specialty is fighting crowds. She has better aoe than most characters, with little to no cost. She also can fight bosses, but that isn't her specialty, so she's more limited there

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is false, she has quite a few problems.. 

I can not play in betas, but that does not mean I shouldn’t have any rights to voice my opinions and be heard.

Currently Wendys Skill Tree revolves almost if not entirely around “Multiplayer” or playing the game on a certain setting because of Tombstones, Skeletons & Ghosts.

You can never create additional GMBW in a world where you can’t become a skeleton, and the perk for “Vengeful Spirit” where dead players can wreck havoc on the living world for a few moments, only works when you can become a Ghost, and will not work on Wilderness Mode, or worlds on hardcore setting where saves get instantly deleted upon death.

I made a suggestion that fixes this though and allows Solo, Wilderness & Hardcore Mode players able to get skeletons and take advantage of the vengeful spirit perk.

The Suggestion was to make hired AI Followers near Wendy that “die” drop a Skeleton at their death location for however long the “Vengeful Spirit” perk lasts, this will allow Wendy players to actually be able to use Vengeful Spirit by relying on AI Followers if playing Solo or “no Ghost” type modes.

the AI Skeletons can be walked across and trampled (they’re fragile!) but during the time that a hired AI Follower is turned into a Ghost (having died within the last 30 seconds) this gives Wendy time to turn their dropped Skeletons into GMBW.

If there’s no Wendy nearby when they die, they won’t drop skeletons or become a spooky ghost (same as how Bernie won’t enlarge to BERNIE! If no Willow is nearby)

Skeletons will last for however long the vengeful ghost perk lasts, and after that the AI Ghost will Haunt their own skeleton and it’ll crumble away to dust.

I know this seems like a lot of Work, but Whoever designed Wolfgang’s Skill Tree had the right idea when they allowed Hired AI Followers to be able to boost his sanity (for being around friends) and take advantage of his coach whistle perks.

I don’t normally ping developers, but some of Wendy’s skill tree needs to be accessible to Solo Players/Wilderness Mode players and currently… It’s Not. @Jason

Hope I do not disturb you and your work by pinging you. Apologies if I have. 

Did you not just list only two skills that are related to multiplayer, and are still functional in solo? I'm pretty sure everything in the tree works for solo, with only a small handful of skills being better suited for multiplayer. And other characters have multiplayer exclusive skills that are useless in solo (wigfrid and wortox for example)

17 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

All skills are small optimizations.

These don't completely solve Wendy's biggest problem.

It didn't bring a new mechanism either.

This is the reason why we want to remake the skill tree.

So what is it that you actually want? Are you asking for them to make Abigail extremely tanky against bosses, or is it something else?

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is false, she has quite a few problems.. 

- Snip regarding graveyard skeleton stuff -

Yeah that is true. But those are problems introduced after the skill tree introduction. If simply "not enough multiplayer engagement" is enough to justify then yeah. Wendy had problems which have been touched upon in the Skill trees (Revival, Abby's Fear, vengeful ghost). She has always been useful in a team setting because she is amazing at amassing spider loot. So outside of that she doesn't have any problems that need to be addressed. Very few characters actually do. Wigfrid needed her fire song to actually provide fire protection (which it does). Winona needed to be able to move her catapults (which she can). Wanda needs to have bonuses for planar (which she does since we got the reaper). Willow needed a re-refresh (which she unfortunately got as a skill tree instead of baseline...)

Hope my point of view makes sense in this regard.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Some people don't play Wendy, and of course they don't know what Wendy needs.

[aidankocherhans]

4 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

Some people don't play Wendy, and of course they don't know what Wendy needs.

Could you actually say what you think she needs then?

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

7分钟前，aidankocherhans说：

你真的能说出你认为她需要什么吗？

I've said a lot. I don't want to tell you here. You can see if you have eyes.

If you can't see it, it's your problem.

[aidankocherhans]

Just now, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

I've said a lot. I don't want to tell you here. You can see if you have eyes.

If you can't see it, it's your problem.

You've said something specific maybe like twice, but almost everything I've seen you say was vague and not something the devs could work with. You made a post referring to her "biggest problem" but you won't say what it is so we don't know what you're talking about.

They're not going to reset her skill tree, they've been working on it this whole time and aren't going to scrap it and extend the beta by over a month. At this point you need to ask for tweaks, not a reset

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

4分钟前，aidankocherhans说：

你可能说过两次具体的话，但我看到的几乎所有你说的都是模糊的，不是开发人员可以处理的。你发了一个帖子，提到她的“最大问题”，但你不会说它是什么，所以我们不知道你在说什么。

他们不会重置她的技能树，他们一直在研究它，不会报废它并将测试版延长一个多月。此时，您需要要求调整，而不是重置

The skill tree of each character greatly increases the upper limit of the character to a certain extent.

Wendy only has some small optimizations.

Wortox has been able to quickly pass the main tasks of the moon and shadow.

This is the victory of the mechanism.

Greatly increase the upper limit of character playability

Wendy has the current skill tree.

Facing the boss behind the moon, Wendy is still having a hard time.

If you say those drugs can give Wendy back blood

I can farm. There are so many dishes that restore blood volume, which one is not as good as this?

The potion that obtains brightness at night. When I was in beta, the picture presented by this potion is very ugly.

I will have other better and more comfortable ways to get light.

There are too many questions to say.

There is no interesting mechanism, and these small optimizations can even be replaced by better ones. This is where the failure is.