Walter DPS tests, feedback and discussion thread (WOBY EXPLODES?)

[Catuna_]

Buckle up, this post will be extruciatingly long. his is a follow-up post in a way regarding my DPS tests with the new ammo types that Walter got, this thread is meant to try and gather up Walter's skill tree constructive criticisms, discussion and suggestions into fewer threads/posts for the purpose of making it easier for readers to keep up, while also clearing up some confusion regarding Walter's DPS relative to melee weapons of an equivalent tier, and followed by my opinion on the state of the skill tree, gripes, likes etc.
(For old damage numbers, check out my previous post)

This leads into the first question: "Does Walter out-damage melee weapons with his slingshot?", and the answer is... well, only sometimes, surprisingly enough. In this post, I will go over the state of the slingshot in detail, and I will give my two cents in the end about how I feel about it and what can be done.
Animation cancelling will be brought up as it's something I personally always use especially as a solo player who plays 1x damage characters, however the DPS tests shown in the screenshot will not have any animation cancelling.

(Silky grip) Gold rounds and pebbles still suck lol

While it's definitely obvious that pebbles will not be a serious weapon for anyone playing Walter, dealing less damage than even stinger rounds, I was a bit surprised learning that gold rounds completely fail to keep up with melee by a fair margin.

Not only does it fail to outpace the spear (which also requires a science machine), it's still lower than an axe. With animation cancelling, the spear reaches a dps of up to 85, while the axe reaches 67.5, which reinforces that gold rounds are quite a bad ammo. One could bring up the gold rounds' ability to kill birds in a single shot for infinite gold, but I'd argue that stinger rounds are better for this as you're not spending any of the gold you're gaining for more bird kills. Yes, gold isn't uncommon but stingers are a resource that you can amass extremely easily. 
Considering that I personally reserve a lot of my gold for tools, beefalo equipment etc. I can safely say that I won't be making these rounds and the slingshot will have to sit on the bench until I get some better ammo.

(Silky grip) Marble rounds (and I guess by extension Moonglass rounds too?)

Marble rounds are definitely not my favorite, they're quite annoying to farm and gather especially as a character who has no perks related to work, however, they are still an appealing ammo to people who are not proficient at going to the ruins or spotting lunar island, or maybe just people who have a friendly Wurt to lend them her merm workers' help. Acquiring the alchemy engine marks a very big point for the player as it unlocks what is in my honest opinion the overall best weapon in this game (before the rifts); the Hambat. However, for those who are venturing into the swamp at this point, they could end up getting lucky and salvaging a couple tentacle spikes from merms and tentacles fighting in the swamp.

And... The slingshot is still losing. Only this time, the gap is growing bigger and bigger. For those who are observant, the slingshot is still losing to the spear with animation cancelling despite the significantly higher damage compared to gold rounds. When taking animation cancelling into consideration for the other two weapons, the Hambat's DPS rises to 148.75, while the tentacle spike spikes to 127.5 (heh... good one Walter). Definitely not a great look.
"Why not test with the glommer grip?" I should address this by now, the glommer goop grip is ever so slightly slower than the ramped up silky grip, and so I figured that it's just not worth bringing it up as the difference is extremely negligible. However, I still consider it a better overall grip as in practice, not having to ramp up your slingshot's firing speed when you dont have access to slowdown rounds or icker rounds is a huge upgrade.

(Silky grip) Thulecite, Gunpowder and Dreadstone rounds

Good news, Woby! Now that we've ventured into the ruins we have access to some ammos that should pack a punch. We've also found some random gunpowder from setpieces and failed survivors, so we'll test those too. However, we also have a new rival to compete with: the Thulecite club. 

And it looks like we've caught up! at this point, Walter's able to reach the DPS of the hambat (with animation cancelling!) without even breaking a sweat, while gunpowder and dreadstone start to look appealing as a tentacle spot or shield of terror equivalent weapon that isn't hard to produce large quantities of. However, we must also compare to our new rival, the Thulecite club.

Animation cancelling                                                          No animation cancelling

The thulecite club comes on top of the slingshot by a decent margin, however, this shouldn't be a surprise, as the thulecite club does have the potential for damage output between all the weapons in the game available before the rifts. It's also stupid expensive, unlike thulecite rounds which are absurdly cheap. (The reason I tested anim cancelling dps is because it's hard to pinpoint an average for the thulecite club and I'm not smart enough for that.)

Notes:

• Due to the buffs to Walter's firing rate, Gunpowder rounds have gotten worse as Walter is able to fire significantly more ammo in the span of the 5 second lockout, I feel like the lockout timer should be reduced accordingly in order to compensate.
• The dreadstone round buff is really good! But I wish that you didn't have to pick up after yourself, it would be very nice if they teleported back into your inventory, kind of like you have a lazy forager. They could have their cost increased to need an orange gem, too. I wouldn't mind that trade-off personally as orange gems are rather lackluster and it'd be cool to have a recurring craft that utilizes them.

(Silky grip) Walter no, those are supposed to be pre-rifts!

In my last post I complained about how Walter's affinities are purely post-rift content, and while I still agree with what I said I am wrong as only one of the affinities purely have rift-locked content. I somehow completely glossed over how the shadowcraft plinth kit does not cost any dark tatters whatsoever! Meaning that after beating that stinking werepig, you can go and make one immediately. And while we don't get access to the powerful icker rounds, we do get access to the pure horror rounds without needing to interact with the Fuelweaver quest line at all!

Say hello to the stun lock ammo! While the DPS is decent, but unimpressive, this ammo does possess the ability to repeatedly hit mobs over and over, causing stun locks with creatures like Beefalos. This ammo is also affected by the thulecite frame's alternate firing effect, meaning that it could be a decent tool for controlling crowds. However, I do not know, and quite frankly doubt that it'd be better than Moonglass rounds at such a role, especially considering that Pure horror doesn't grow on trees (at least before the shadow rifts). Honestly, I would still love to see it make mobs panic, even if it means tuning down the damage.

(Jelly grip) HOLY CRAP THIS ITEM IS INSANE

Once Walter walks out of the (quite frankly quite easy) Bee Queen fight victorious, he can sacrifice 3 jellybeans worth of royal jelly for the Jelly grip. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, the jelly grip is an insane upgrade.

At this point, Walter has done it, as he's surpassed melee weapons, falling short to the thulecite club but managing to outdamage a Dark sword with animation cancelling (170 DPS). Although obviously the thulecite rounds aren't exactly reliable or consistent, they are consistent enough for boss fights especially considering Walter's ability to slow them down to a halt with honey and slow-down rounds. Looks like bees aren't so bad, after all. And even glossing over thulecite rounds, gunpowder and dreadstone rounds now reach a hambat's DPS, which is more than plenty to work with especially considering that their damage doesn't decrease overtime.

The void grip (and the void cowl sometimes)

We've beaten the formidable Fuelweaver, who was no match for the boy with a slingshot and his small dog, obviously.
Now that we've crafted the void grip, our firing speed is insane, and our DPS should be the same to... right?
In this hotfix, Klei have added a set bonus of sort to dreadstone andpure horror rounds. While having both the void grip and the void cowl equipped, so we should make one of those too, Woby.

 

And it looks like we're still keeping up! However, only with thulecite rounds. This was such a shocker to me, as I expected the lower base damage of Walter's ammo to catch up to him at some point. But apparently not! Thulecite continue being on top. However, as the shadow reaper and Maul reach a DPS of 222 with animation cancelling, the slingshot is still outmatched, while the other rounds start looking like squeaky chew toys.

But wait, Where's Lunar Walter?

It's no secret that shadow Walter is just better than lunar Walter, but even so he shouldn't be excluded in these comparisons, nor should the brightshade sword as it's very powerful.

And as we can see, the brightshade husk rounds are still equivalent to thulecite rounds; with planar damage being the only difference. Meanwhile, we're completely destroying the brightshade sword, though with animation cancelling it closes the gap and achieves a dps of 192! The exact same dps as the slingshot creating our first ever stalemate. The lower DPS of the pure brilliance rounds are understandable, as they are meant to be more of a utility ammo. However, playing around with them, I wish that they lasted longer as having to keep up with maintaining slows and Walter's lunar mark debuff (even with the new visual indicators, which speaking of, thank you so much for adding those, Klei!), or had more power to them if they're going to only last for 8s. Now, onto what I find quite odd: There's no lunar ammo set bonus? You'd really think it'd have one considering shadow got one, maybe it's planned but was postponed? Regardless, I think that making the brightshade helmet buff the brightshade husk and pure brilliance rounds would be an excellent change to make lunar Walter compete more with his shadow affinity counterpart.

How does the slingshot hold up against the Howlitzer and Gloomerang?

It holds up great! Completely outpacing the two. I imagine that this was the point of buffing the slingshot, as it was still beaten by those two weapons. However, now the slingshot is both more convenient, more powerful, more flexible but also cheaper. (Top is animation cancelling + swapping between boomerangs, bottom is no animation cancelling and 1 boomerang)

 

And with that, we've finished our testing! It seems that Walter's still out-done by melee weapons, until we beat Bee Queen giving us access to the rather excellent Jelly grip, which at that point we are able to stomp those pesky swords and axes and clubs using the power of thulecite/brightshade rounds. Now, time for a lightning round of notes, for things that I think aren't worth an entire section but worth going over. I'd be happy to answer any questions that aren't covered by the lightning round.

• Is Walter a good user of the crown?: Yes! Not only does Walter not lose sanity from insanity auras, but he also gains +6sanity/min from being near trees, and about +4.44/min from riding Woby with support 1 and 2. Combined with one starcaller staff cast (+25sanity/min), and the celestial crown (+10/min) and a thulecite suit (+3.3/min) ; we are able to reach +55sanity/min, which means that we're able to proc the crown almost once every second! Adding an extra star from the starcaller staff makes it +1.25sanity/second. Walter is able to sit right by those stars as he is able to build massive distance between him and his targets, and slowing them to a halt.
• Does distance affect Walter's DPS? No. I am close to my target in most tests because I need the screenshots I take to be small enough to fit to make the post easier to look at.
• Why not use Shockscrap rounds? Because they suck, quite frankly. And with the new shadow set bonus, dreadstone rounds achieve a higher damage even against a wet target (78.8 vs 74.375). I really do think they should be buffed to 2.5x electric modifier.
• Why not mention the scrappy frame? Because it's quite lackluster, the scrappier frame is great QoL for being able to hold infinite ammo. But the scrappy frame's charging effect is way too slow to be useful considering the damage dealt, as well as locking you out of being able to conveniently apply slows in an AoE with slow-down rounds. A fun and great way to buff it would be to turn it into an upgrade that fires several bullets, or maybe a shotgun pattern of bullets going against the grain of Walter's incentive to stay far far away and enabling a riskier playstyle that is perhaps more rewarding and distinct from the thulecite frame.
• Does the honey trail/icker trail slow down fellow players? Yes! They turn any mob you shoot into a mini-Bee Queen/Icker blob... or both funnily enough, however if you are a little careful with where you walk, you should be fine.
• What are the values on Walter's slows, and what's the max slow he can achieve? Honey is a 40% slow, Icker is a 70% slow and Slow-down rounds are 33.33% slows that can stack up to 3 times multiplicatively (up to about 71%), applying icker and 3 slowdown rounds will make mobs move at 8.7% (or a 92.3% slow) of their original movement speed. Further applying honey rounds turns this into a whopping 5.22% (or 94.88% slow) . In a way, he's a baby Maxwell.

Enough with the slingshot! What about our favorite good girl?

Science says that Woby's the best girl ever! At least that's what Mr. Wilson told me...

I'm so confused by the Woby branch. I quite frankly think that it really blows: It's not very intuitive nor does it tell you anything about how the badges work, it doesn't tell you that picking [Badge] 2 will also train [Badge] 1 (the opposite isn't true), and the perks are just rather lackluster.
Agility, bravery and support all do the same thing, which is remedying what makes Woby worse than a beefalo:

While Agility 1&2 Woby is faster than a beefalo... it's only slightly faster than a rider beefalo at its peak (13 speed vs 12.4) not to mention that it decays overtime, meaning that after a day passes you're back to being slower. I think that this should be buffed further, to a speed of 14 or 15. It sounds insane, but she's a recurring cost while Beefalo eventually are not. 

Bravery is just not very useful in my opinion, and should be scrapped entirely and perhaps implemented a bit into Walter's base kit (increase damage threshold from 8 to 12, or 15), with a marble suit, Walter needs to take the equivalent of 160 damage within 5 seconds to get bucked which in my experience is more than plenty, even without Walter's slowing ammo or faster Woby. Boosting to 15 would make it take 300 damage, which would be a good sweet point for armored Walter, while still being a threat to unarmored Walter as a spider bite will still be enough to get him bucked.

Support just got buffed, and will now provide Walter with up to +1.8sanity/min and +2.66sanity/min (Support 1 and 2 respectively)... But this confuses me, as the developers said that they'll try to distinguish Woby from beefalo, yet she's given a weaker version of the Pudgy sanity aura? That aside, same story as bravery, as the sanity damage you take while wearing the pinetree pioneer hat and marble armor is already extremely minimal.

Fetching sucks, and for no good reason. 7s is just way too high of a cooldown, and she can fail to pick up items for some reason... Woby currently also can't fetch Walter's dreadstone rounds, which makes it an even bigger bummer. Perhaps make it always 2s, but amp up the success rate with training, or make the picking up part guaranteed and buff the cooldown to 5s?

Fetching and digging can't be done by big Woby, making her completely undesirable as she still is worse than a beefalo due to reasons stated above.

What's my opinion on the skilltree overall? I'm a little bored of the slingshot tuning, honestly. It feels like it's all we've been getting. I'm looking forward to Walter's woby branch retunings and perhaps reworks, as well as maybe new perks, as his skilltree barely has any perks (22 perks, the lowest of any survivor). I like the direction the slingshot took, but as it stands right now... All of his skilltree focuses on it.

What's my opinion on the slingshot, is it too strong? Or is it balanced? This is a lame answer, but I'm extremely neutral. I think that looking at the more lackluster ammos would be a better direction than trying to tune the new grips, though... That's pretty much it.

(Final note, I hope Walter's quotes are done soon, as the current placeholders are rather underwhelming and really don't feel like him.)

woby skins pleas

 

blowing up my dog for fun

 

 

[Primalflower]

15 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

. 7s is just way too high of a cooldown

what the heck it's that high???? that's crazy... Fetching is like one of the most appealling things from my perspective about walter and its scary to think numbers are killing it right now

[Reiko24]

13 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

what the heck it's that high???? that's crazy... Fetching is like one of the most appealling things from my perspective about walter and its scary to think numbers are killing it right now

tbh, woby should really be a wobot that works only on herself, like, winbots and wobots are more useful since they can pick up literally anything and put it into anytthing, woby would put stuff only inside the bag she holds

[Tarnishedmax]

He finally does damage!! Im really happy with the current iteration of the slingshot but its genuinely so exhausting how that has been pretty much the ONLY changes we have received for him, its even more tiring considering how Wendy has gotten like 7 new skills and Walter has yet to see anything new despite having the lowest amount of selectable skills, the slingshot itself its in a perfect state and i hope they stop tuning it so much and rather focus on the underwhelming rounds we currently have, i do however disagree with the statement of the scrappy frame being useless, from a straight up dps perspective its in fact worse than just holding F but the insane utility that comes from being able to shoot from a screen away and perfectly reaching breakpoints of most mobs makes it one of the most useful things for me, sure i wont use it on a boss fight but being able to kill shadow creatures in 3 to 4 shots, outranging bishops, one shotting pesky spiders, frogs, elemental hounds, pengulls and even leaving monkeys, normal hounds and a variety of other enemies in the brink of death makes this such an insane utility tool with a lot of potential outside single target scenarios, i do however wish you could switch modes around, having both the ultra strong shot and a shotgun mode would make scrappy frame perfect, about Woby i dont understand why her numbers are so LOW, why is the fetch cooldown so long?, why is the sanity gain so low? this is not just a skill we actually have to TRAIN Woby for this and even then we only have 4 points to even try to use her stuff, i dont understand why klei is afraid of overtuning Woby when she needs so much training and upkeep, she deserves better.

[Horsheen]

Amazing post as always, I would give it an award of some kind if I could

[Mysterious box]

Does seem like lunar might need more incentive which seems to be a shockingly common theme of skill trees.

[Quikin]

Ho! Yeah, I just realized that the other day! The horror rounds are not post rifts!, Icker one yes, but not the horror...

But still Walter stuff is not cheap at all!, other characters get imaginary things for their crafts xD Winona just spawns loot, willow and Wortox get especial loot mostly for free, Wendy gets her ingredients by imaginary dead friends, and the stuff that she crafts is so cheap (nightshade nostrum cost 1 stinger!? And don't get me started on all the new animations she just got of the latest update), and all of this with no crafting station, well maybe science.

Walter has to go so out of his way to get the new rounds and the frames,(except for of course the sticky, stinger rounds, and the goop grip) so projectile pro 1 and 2 is a must for me, we don't have much option tho, the Woby training is kinda bad I just go for digging and speed level 2 to switch it up when Woby transforms and get level 1 and 2 and then other branch level 1 to make it 4/4. I just end up wasting my points in rounds i know im not going to get, like the shockscrap rounds xD because i dont know were else to waste them.

And the lunar affinity and the void grip, yeah I'm not getting those xD, and the thelucite frame is the coolest of the 2 options we got (I don't count the bone one and the scrappier frame I think they are for extra storage only? If I'm not mistaken) so i dont go for the scrapy frame point unless im multiplying (the skilltree dosent seem to be very chill public server friendly tho since its kinda selfish, while Wortox and Wendy got a resurrect xD).

And the tape and wrap grips are kinda weird, I don't notice the difference between them and their sticky counterparts in therms of attack speed.

My complaints apart, good job!This is one of the most insightful research I think we are going to get, I'm not betting on most YouTube guides to invest much thought on Walter,i think he is going to get the old under the radar treatment there.

[_mylilsunshine_]

Rule of thumb: always read a Catuna post.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO mr tuna, don't blow up little woby--?

While animation canceling is a significant boost to DPS, I won't be doing that since it's another level of sweat I don't care for. To me it's like animation canceling in Stardew Valley to get 1 or 2 more seconds out of your day.

Also, really cute Winter fit for 'tuh. Here's my favorite, the glasses come from Modded Skin on Steam btw:

[Torpeda]

Great job, @Catuna_! Well done!

I also want to add TL;DR:

Waleter's Attack Speed without a handle: 1.2
w/Silk: 1.6
w/Glommer's Goop: 1.5
w/Royal Jelly: 1.9
w/Dark Tatters: 2.2

Agility Training can be fully completed in <15 days and you can remain stationary to train Woby
Agility Training I: +10% Movement Speed (11)
Agility Training II: +20% Movement Speed (12)
Agility Training I + II: +30% Movement Speed (13)

Bravery Training can be fully completed in <1 day (Woby can be trained while attacking Punching Bag)
Bravery Training was tested with only Football Helmet (80% reduction) against Beefalo (34 damage)
Without Bravery Training: Knocked off after receiving 13 damage
Bravery Training I: Knocked off after receiving 20 damage
Bravery Training II: Knocked off after receiving 27 damage
Bravery Training I+II: Knocked off after receiving 33 damage

Support Training can be fully completed in <1 day (Woby can be trained while attacking Punching Bag)
Support Training I: Provides ~1.8 Sanity/Minute
Support Training II: Provides ~2.66 Sanity/Minute
Support Training I+II: Provides ~4.46 Sanity/Minute

I also tested Sanity reduction provided by Support Training against Beefalo and without Armour
Sanity drain without Pinetree Pioneer Hat and without Support Training: -68
Sanity drain with Pinetree Pioneer Hat and without Support Training: -34

Sanity drain without Pinetree Pioneer Hat and with Support Training I: -13
Sanity drain without Pinetree Pioneer Hat and with Support Training II: -20
Sanity drain without Pinetree Pioneer Hat and with Support Training I+II: -34

Sanity drain with Pinetree Pioneer Hat and Support Training I: -6
Sanity drain with Pinetree Pioneer Hat and Support Training II: -10
Sanity drain with Pinetree Pioneer Hat and Support Training I+II: -16

(Note: Seems bugged right now. You lose more Sanity with more Support Training)

Digging Training I: Woby digs once every 12 minutes
Digging Training II: Woby digs once every 8 minutes
Digging Training I+II: Wiby digs once every 4 minutes

Fetching Training can be completed in <3 days. Woby can fetch items that are floating on the water (probably also Cave Hole?)
If you put e.g. 1x Cut Grass in Woby's inventory, she will pick Cut Grass until she picks up one full stack, even if she has more space in her inventory and there are more Cut Grass laying around.
Fetching Training I: Woby fetches once every 7 seconds
Fetching Training II: Woby fetches once every 5 seconds
Fetching Training I+II: Woby fetches once every 3 seconds

I also want to share my thoughts, but it's late, so see you tomorrow!

EDIT:
Added Screenshot showing range difference between Fetching Training I (Glommer's Goop handle) and Fetching Training I+II (Royal Jelly handle). The Fetching target is Meat.

[Catuna_]

6 hours ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Also, really cute Winter fit for 'tuh. Here's my favorite, the glasses come from Modded Skin on Steam btw:

Thank you! he's all readied up for the cold
your walter skin also looks adorable

6 hours ago, Torpeda said:

Agility Training can be fully completed in <15 days and you can remain stationary to train Woby

96 minutes! Or 12 days

6 hours ago, Torpeda said:

Fetching Training I: Woby fetches once every 7 seconds
Fetching Training II: Woby fetches once every 5 seconds
Fetching Training I+II: Woby fetches once every 3 seconds

This sounds inaccurate, fetching 1 and 2 reduce the cooldown (and increase the range) by 2/3 respectively
the base cooldown is 7s, so it'd be 5/4/2 for 1, 2 and 1+2 respectively
that aside, these are some very nice numbers to have, thank you ^^

[flamboyant wolf]

12 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

 

 [Badge] 2 will also train [Badge] 1 (the opposite isn't true), 

 

It is, in my experience? 

notice how bravery badges share the progress just like agility ones, despite me using badge 2 of agility, and badge 1 of bravery.

[Torpeda]

2 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

96 minutes! Or 12 days

Yeah, but in normal game setting, no one is probably going to do it that quickly, but thanks for the exact numbers!

2 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

This sounds inaccurate, fetching 1 and 2 reduce the cooldown (and increase the range) by 2/3 respectively
the base cooldown is 7s, so it'd be 5/4/2 for 1, 2 and 1+2 respectively

I did more elaborate test. I used stopwatch, so there could be +/-1 second difference.
With Fetching Training I Woby will pick 39 items in 234 seconds, i.e. once every 6 seconds
With Fetching Training II Woby will pick 39 items in 196 seconds, i.e. once every 5 seconds
With Fetching Training I+II Woby will pick 39 items in 120 seconds, i.e. once every 3 seconds

So it's neither 7/5/3, nor 5/4/2. It's 6/5/3.

9 hours ago, Torpeda said:

(probably also Cave Hole?)

Doesn't work on items within Cave Holes. Woby is blocked.

[yzb44]

i hope honey ammunition or other(can generate slow effective) can slow boss that can flay(it is really reasonable,because boss's wing has been sticked by honey) 

additionally,wish walter can  charge up while moving

[Torpeda]

I also want to share my thoughts on Walter's Skill Tree and the problem it currently faces.

All new Ammo's don't make sense if the best ammo is the old Cursed Rounds. Thulecite and Thulecite Fragments are easy to find and can be farmed rather quickly with Dust Moth, compared to pre-rift Shockscrap Rounds and Dreadstone Rounds. One Thulecite will provide you with 6x Thulecite Fragments to craft 180x Cursed Rounds, enough to kill most bossess.

Dreadstone and Scrap is better to be used for other recipes, especially if you're playing with another players.

Gunpowder Rounds seem like good early alternative to Cursed Rounds, but IMHO it would be just so much faster to just kill boss's with Gun Powder instead. It's better for non-boss enemies and everyday encounters, tho.

Stinger Rounds are good only for farming, well, bees. Once you get an access to Moon Glass, it loses all value.

Slow-Down Rounds needs visual effect, especially after Klei made it stack. Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds already have visual indicator and same should apply to Slow-Down rounds. As it is now, it's hard to track in the middle of a fight.

Slow-Down Rounds, Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds shouldn't stack and I think it would be better for Walter and for game balance if there was more effect rather than 3 different stacking slows.

Shadow Slinger is only good, because of Icky Rounds and because of AoE effect that Pure Horror Rounds provide with Thulecite Frame.

Lunar Slinger is only good, because of the AoE effect that Pure Brilliance Rounds provide with Thulecite Frame and because Brightshade Rounds is the only ammo that can somewhat compete with Cursed Rounds in terms of DPS.

Scrappy Frame is useless. Scrappier Frame is not worth it. It doesn't provide any good additional effects, it costs too much and works only as ammo storage.

Training Station is cool concept, but since Walter doesn't have remote access to the station, it makes the whole training idea clunky and not worth investing points.
You can't change your active perks when not at your base (it's probably where you put your training station) and some perks work only if Woby is big and some if Woby is small.
If the current design stays, I highly suggest giving Walter remote access to the station with the use of Pinetree Pioneer Hat.

Bravery and Support should be combined and even then I wouldn't even call them that much useful.

Agility I and Agility II combined make Woby better than Beefalo and is good, but then you can have only one other training active. From my experience one should not spend more than 2 Insight Points in Woby Training because of it.

Digging is the hardest to train, because it's event that just periodically occurs. I find it uninteractive and boring. It's cool that you get some stuff for free, but it's mostly junk and often times you don't notice that Woby dug something up. It needs audio indicator (bark or howl?). I would like if it provided Walter with a personal shovel as well.

Fetching Training suffers from the same problem as Agility Training: It's only good if you pick both Fetching Training I and II, but then you can have no more trainings active. Is it intended design? To me it seems awful and counter-intuitive.

Customizer is cool concept, but it would work much better as baseline perk rather than Skill Tree perks. It's so much grinding compared to other characters' Insight perks. Currently Customizer is in my opinion OP. It provides Walter with too much damage for a ranged weapon. I am mostly a Walter (but also Wilson and Wortox) player and I enjoy the power spikes, but from game balance perspective it doesn't seem like healthy design. The reward is too high for the low risk that it comes with using the weapon (although this whole grinding somewhat balances it out).

Also I feel like Customizer and Projectile Pro I and Projectile Pro II are the only real perks that Walter currently has. Other perks feel more like fillers and are really situational.

[yzb44]

13 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

Customizer

this is a parts that provide double damage by charge up?(i think is just fine,because it remedy the dps insufficient against other weapon in later stage).isn't it

[_mylilsunshine_]

33 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

Slow-Down Rounds needs visual effect, especially after Klei made it stack. Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds already have visual indicator and same should apply to Slow-Down rounds. As it is now, it's hard to track in the middle of a fight.

Slow-Down Rounds, Sticky Rounds and Icky Rounds shouldn't stack and I think it would be better for Walter and for game balance if there was more effect rather than 3 different stacking slows.

=

Scrappy Frame is useless. Scrappier Frame is not worth it. It doesn't provide any good additional effects, it costs too much and works only as ammo storage.

Slow-down was actually given a visual effect in this beta build btw, I'm not sure if the effect changes with how many stacks though. And I like that the slow effects can stack, it makes Walter a better support character in multiplayer, since in single-player it's not that practical to apply anyway.

Scrappy Frame can let you cheese Crab King with the charge shot, and that's good enough for me.

[Torpeda]

1 minute ago, yzb44 said:

this is a parts that provide double damage by charge up?(i think is just fine,because it remedy the dps insufficient against other weapon in later stage).isn't it

You're thinking about Scrappy Frame, I think? Scrappy Frame doubles the damage of alternate attack. If you're talking about Customization being ok, because it needs to compete with other late game weapons, I kind of disagree. I think having a choice is always better. You should have the choice to either deal more damage at melee range with other weapons or deal uninterrupted sustain damage from safe distance at the cost of having your DPS lowered.

I usually play with other players and you kind of already deal the same damage with Walter as with any other character, because you don't need to kite when someone else is tanking an enemy. It saves you resources as well. Recently I've been fighting Ancient Guardian on PTR and the only items I used during the fight was 180 Cursed Rounds (6x Thulecite Fragments, 6x Nightmare Fuel), 3x Monster Meat for Woby and a few Slow-Down Rounds. Haven't lost any Health or Sanity during the fight. How does it compare to fighting in melee? I believe now it's going to be even easier after the new patch.

8 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Slow-down was actually given a visual effect in this beta build btw, I'm not sure if the effect changes with how many stacks though. And I like that the slow effects can stack, it makes Walter a better support character in multiplayer, since in single-player it's not that practical to apply anyway.

 

Oh, sweet. Didn't know, because the effect is not applied to Punching Bags. Just checked this in-game against Beefalo and there's a visual effect indeed and I very much like how it looks, although it's hard to distingnuish how many stacks the target has, but it's an improvement for sure. Thanks!

10 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Scrappy Frame can let you cheese Crab King with the charge shot, and that's good enough for me.

Having Skill Tree perks worth anything only when cheesing doesn't sound like it should be the goal, tho. 

[Mysterious box]

31 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

You're thinking about Scrappy Frame, I think? Scrappy Frame doubles the damage of alternate attack. If you're talking about Customization being ok, because it needs to compete with other late game weapons, I kind of disagree. I think having a choice is always better. You should have the choice to either deal more damage at melee range with other weapons or deal uninterrupted sustain damage from safe distance at the cost of having your DPS lowered.

I usually play with other players and you kind of already deal the same damage with Walter as with any other character, because you don't need to kite when someone else is tanking an enemy. It saves you resources as well. Recently I've been fighting Ancient Guardian on PTR and the only items I used during the fight was 180 Cursed Rounds (6x Thulecite Fragments, 6x Nightmare Fuel), 3x Monster Meat for Woby and a few Slow-Down Rounds. Haven't lost any Health or Sanity during the fight. How does it compare to fighting in melee? I believe now it's going to be even easier after the new patch.

I don't really see the issue here people can already do ag without getting hit with other characters he's fairly easy when you have the pattern down and mistakes against him with Walter are big blows to sanity. Compare that to Woodie who is also a pretty fair character whose moose form can come out completely unharmed even if he makes a few mistakes during the fight.

I feel like the main consideration is that with so much focus on his slingshot and his risks to also have his dps just fall off and become much worse at a certain point would just feel cruel.

 

 

As for Woby while it maybe unlikely I really hope they consider this.

 

[_mylilsunshine_]

Quote

Scrappy Frame can let you cheese Crab King with the charge shot, and that's good enough for me.

42 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

Having Skill Tree perks worth anything only when cheesing doesn't sound like it should be the goal, tho. 

I also think that the game shouldn't be balanced around cheese, or cheese is a valid playstyle for the game, it was a tongue-in-cheek joke on how annoying Crab King can be. As for the Scrappy frame, I'm not sure if it will be changed when the live branch hit. I'm not even sure anything substantial will be changed before the live branch. I can only hope for further improvement even after Klei release the skill tree.

[yzb44]

yes,walter can't afford make mistake almostly in battle with the boss,it will take double sanity lose than health,and will create continuing  trouble if you haven't any food can recover health 

[Torpeda]

@Mysterious box I know we gonna disagree on this one. You already know my opinion from the exchanges we had earlier. I just think that Slingshot's damage should be enough to warrant non-Walter players to try and enjoy him as well as providing good and safe alternative damage option, but at the same time should be lower (not necessarily by much) than melee weapons to reward more experienced player for fighting at close. Having said that, Walter's affinities should definitely provide him with enough Slingshot damage to compete with post-rift weapons (being on par or better than them).

30 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

As for Woby while it maybe unlikely I really hope they consider this.

Alternatively if they combined Bravery and Support and allowed for 6 Trainings to be active instead of 4, you could go Agility/Bravery or Digging/Fetching or 4 Basic + 1 improved.
But I think your idea is worth considering and testing by Klei as well. Woby Training in its current form is very lackluster.

[yzb44]

8 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

but at the same time should be lower (not necessarily by much) than melee weapons to reward more experienced player for fighting at close.

are you kiding me,you think walter should reawrd fighting at close

[WendyHater9000]

Scrappy frame charge attack is good against bishop, celestial champion phase 3, and those bosses that you can't stand still to fight. It's dps is higher when you need to kite every two hit, which is almost all of the case before you got icker round

[Torpeda]

1 hour ago, yzb44 said:

are you kiding me,you think walter should reawrd fighting at close

Because I'm in favour of retaining his gameplay from the live servers, where you can either fight in melee, at range or on a beefalo.
PTR Walter is kind of pushed into using his Slingshot only which reduces player's choices regarding combat options.
Currently on live servers Walter actually is rewarded for fighting in melee range, because the Slingshot deals a lot less damage than it does on PTR.
I'm not advocating for making no changes to Slingshot or make it so it can't compete with other weapons at all, but rather to be comparable although slightly less powerfull than melee weapons with corresponding ammo.
And I know I'm in the minority here, but it's fine. And if Slingshot will end up the better choice over melee weapons for Walter, it's not like I would cry over it or anything.
I would actually be ecstatic, because secretly I WANT to be able to just shoot everything down from afar and lose neither Health, nor Sanity as well as save resources I would otherwise spent, but at the same time part of me feels like it ain't right as Slingshot's potentially low risk-high reward gameplay loop seems unhealthy balance-wise.

[Lucas Rego]

19 hours ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Rule of thumb: always read a Catuna post.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO mr tuna, don't blow up little woby--?

While animation canceling is a significant boost to DPS, I won't be doing that since it's another level of sweat I don't care for. To me it's like animation canceling in Stardew Valley to get 1 or 2 more seconds out of your day.

Also, really cute Winter fit for 'tuh. Here's my favorite, the glasses come from Modded Skin on Steam btw:

In terms of DPS, Cancelling with Sticky Grip is almost the same as not canceling with void, so we are fine no cancelling ❤️, e believe the DEVs did right in giving this option but as an optional perk