Why does wendy need to be able to destroy every boss?

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

For most experienced Wortox mainly, I guess they would prefer to use naughty build for early game, then switch into nice build for end game.

I can't understand how the sanity loss from eating souls would be an "additional weakness" in end game when we have endless food resources.

Play wortox if you can, you wont be able to tolerate having more than 1 downside affecting your gameplay constantly when you all make such drama to try to remove a downside from a stronger character that only affects her during few scenarios 

[Fufuji]

Simply because devs had said that skilltree updates aim to aid the characters on fighting against planar mobs.

In the last stream they had said that the next patch will help Wendy more on fighting planar mobs, and the current skilltree seems to be too destructive in pre-planar gameplay.

The patch is out now and it doesn't seem to solve the main problem.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Fufuji said:

Simply because devs had said that skilltree updates aim to aid the characters on fighting against planar mobs.

In the last stream they had said that the next patch will help Wendy more on fighting planar mobs, and the current skilltree seems to be too destructive in pre-planar gameplay.

The patch is out now and it doesn't seem to solve the main problem.

Planner mobs are weak.. with the exception being one “boss”

Brightshade plants are a stationary enemy that doesn’t move, Grazzers can be ignored by letting them melt like marshmallows left out in the hot Sun, the whole “Lunar” side of rifts feels like it has significantly less mobs or threats then the shadow side.

the Ink Blight Trio and Rictus etc down in caves are way more challenging then any of the “lunar” mobs.

Oh yeah and about the Lunar “boss” He’s passive, you can ignore attacking him and he’ll walk around not bothering you.. he will also drop aggro and go away if you stop attacking him and run away long enough.. AND if you just don’t want to fight him at all- You can just burn the corpse with a torch before it can be lunar mutated.

[Fufuji]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Planner mobs are weak..

Hard for most of players. Klei's forum consists of expert players or at least players who are devoted in this game and willing to search the internet for a solve for difficult bosses. Most of people simply abandon the game when they face difficulties that can't be solved in-game.

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

ignore

That's literally a waste of money, due to the fact that 100% of money is used to purchase the game and only 80% of the game content is available.

This is a problem can never be ignored, and will only be more enormous with FB arc continues publishing more battle content.

[Mike23Ua]

Yeah we’ll see that’s where you and I have a major difference in opinion, I am of the belief that in a SURVIVAL game that not all of your problems should EVER always be solve-able by just punching or shooting the threats to death.

Sometimes you have to know when to swallow your pride and flee the area.

And if I had any say in how the game was designed (I don’t but if I did…) I would create a few mobs that no matter how much damage you did to them they just won’t ever die..

Something like Resident Evils Unkillable monsters that chase and terrorize you throughout the entire campaign.

If I’m not skilled enough to fight it, or if it’s programmed to be unkillable (such as RE example above) I RUN from it.

Thats the difference between survival games, and action games where all your problems are solved by punching or shooting at it.

And when it comes to DST- there’s a cast of 20 characters.. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to accept that certain characters will be better at doing certain parts of the game then other characters can.

I ALSO think it would be a fun idea to toy around with if there were certain bosses that each character was good at fighting, and other bosses they were the WORST at fighting.

Such as for example: Making Wolfgang terrified of Clowns, so a clown boss would be harder for him messing with his sanity, maybe even making him cower in fear for a few seconds (like the old Scooby Doo games where certain gang members would be horrified of certain ghouls and others weren’t so afraid of it)

Wendy may not be great at fighting armored Bearger… but does she NEED to be?

She already destroys Bee Queen with very little effort..

Walter should obviously have the hardest time fighting BQ.

Strengths & Weaknesses between the cast of 20+ playable characters… that’s what I’d want in a perfect world.

So my answer is that no, Wendy shouldn’t be able to easily kill all bosses, but… neither should any other character.

here’s an Idea: Maybe that clown boss Wolfgang sucks at fighting worse than any other character in the entire game, also “inspires” Wes so for this one battle ONLY Wes does more damage then any other character at fighting it because he’s “insulted” by it..?

when you have a survival game with 20 playable characters, it’s super important to give them each strengths they excel the best at, and weaknesses they’re the absolute worst at.

People lately however… have just wanted Wendy to be able to do everything, and I’m at least one Wendy Main who strongly feels there needs to still be things Wendy CANT be good at.

(there’s people who even ask for skills so Abigail will attack shadow creatures… this goes against her entire design and also steps on Bernie’s role within the game)

 

[layangan putus]

You know why Wendy can kill lots of spiders? Because she can't use boomerang herself to 1-hit birds so she needs to collect silks for bird traps to catch them then murder them for feathers if you need the resources which I think you don't really need that many feathers. Downsides exist to make players use that brain juice of creativity to overcome something be it silly thing or actual important matter, not to make players suffer more than needed like playing game is about problem-solving and having pleasant interactions. Since current post-rift bosses are optional but they will visit you from time to time, we'll see if they'd add more post-rift bosses related to main progression because pretty sure you must fight those bosses to progress the story and Wendy would suffer with her .75 so hey downsides for actual drawback ya in the game which combat is important to progress so you Wendy lovers out there just deal with it, savvy? Although, I remember Wendy being good against little fellas to farm sanity food but of course against Her Majesty BQ (optional boss) so stack your sanity food & jellybeans before handling future post-rift main content and always stick to that Wes routine.

[Cdijk16]

I see a lot of people on this forum complaining about how Wendy is weaker against post-rift trio of bosses(Mutated Deerclops, Bearger and Possesed Varg). I think this is very overblown, in post rifts you have access to powerful planar weapons like Shadow Reaper and Gloomerang whose damage is almost unaffected by Wendy's downside of lower physical damage, so you are not that much weaker compared to Wilson using the same equipment. You can't keep Abigail alive against them easily, but that's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

Abigail is also very useful against a good portion of strong raid bosses like Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Crab King, Nightmare Werepig phase 1 and Ancient Guardian, so I think it's ok for her to have some weak matchups to balance that out. Against most bosses it is feasible to keep Abigail alive with good positioning and use of potions, I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of doing this.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Cdijk16 said:

I see a lot of people on this forum complaining about how Wendy is weaker against post-rift trio of bosses(Mutated Deerclops, Bearger and Possesed Varg). I think this is very overblown, in post rifts you have access to powerful planar weapons like Shadow Reaper and Gloomerang whose damage is almost unaffected by Wendy's downside of lower physical damage, so you are not that much weaker compared to Wilson using the same equipment. You can't keep Abigail alive against them easily, but that's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

Abigail is also very useful against a good portion of strong raid bosses like Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Crab King, Nightmare Werepig phase 1 and Ancient Guardian, so I think it's ok for her to have some weak matchups to balance that out. Against most bosses it is feasible to keep Abigail alive with good positioning and use of potions, I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of doing this.

Whether spamming cure-all or teamspirit commands are boring. 

And your logic of "it's ok for keep some weakness for Wendy in endgame" seems unfair when compared with Wortox.

For early game Wortox already have ability to finish the mainly twin line in 15 days.

For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs. And we all know his souls consuming effectiveness is meaningless in endgame.

 

So is there any good reason to make Wendy to have some unavoidable critical weakness which in a complete different situation as current Wortox?

[Koomin]

20 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Whether spamming cure-all or teamspirit commands are boring. 

And your logic of "it's ok for keep some weakness for Wendy in endgame" seems unfair when compared with Wortox.

For early game Wortox already have ability to finish the mainly twin line in 15 days.

For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs. And we all know his souls consuming effectiveness is meaningless in endgame.

 

So is there any good reason to make Wendy to have some unavoidable critical weakness which in a complete different situation as current Wortox?

Being hostile to neutral mobs is not Wortox's main weakness.  That is barely consequential.  It is getting half benefit from food (for hunger, sanity, and health, which makes managing those harder.  Especially sanity.).  That has not been deleted, and not a single person has asked for it to be deleted because weaknesses and downsides are good for the game as the person above was saying.  This is not a relevant comparison.

[mima_]

26 minutes ago, Steorra said:

For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs.

why? does being neutral to mobs give any benefit in late game ?
 

[layangan putus]

2 hours ago, Cdijk16 said:

I see a lot of people on this forum complaining about how Wendy is weaker against post-rift trio of bosses(Mutated Deerclops, Bearger and Possesed Varg). I think this is very overblown, in post rifts you have access to powerful planar weapons like Shadow Reaper and Gloomerang whose damage is almost unaffected by Wendy's downside of lower physical damage, so you are not that much weaker compared to Wilson using the same equipment. You can't keep Abigail alive against them easily, but that's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be.

Abigail is also very useful against a good portion of strong raid bosses like Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Crab King, Nightmare Werepig phase 1 and Ancient Guardian, so I think it's ok for her to have some weak matchups to balance that out. Against most bosses it is feasible to keep Abigail alive with good positioning and use of potions, I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of doing this.

Weak matchup is acceptable, it's always part of any games but I just notice that .75 modifier doesn't affect planar weapon damage (it actually makes sense since the source of damage coming from the weapon itself and not the players) and you gotta consider that someday in the future, more mandatory tough post-rift bosses are coming to progress story and the current playstyle for shadow Abi is "boss downtime-summon-boss uptime-unsummon-normal kiting-repeat" - I haven't seen yet how the gestalt deals with post-rift bosses but sounds bad with the nerf also like too small window for 1-2 hits for boss downtime then unsummon?

I also think you should never consider how a character deals with optional bosses because they are their own extra puzzles for the players, the game should allow players finishing all main quests from pre-rift, post-rift, post-whatever without relying on the loot from optional bosses (their loots are indeed useful but it's just overkill to do so, at least for the pre-rift bosses) especially if you are playing as new players starting without spending Insight or unlocking shadow/lunar skills yet so all skills are only available after post-rift to deal with some optional bosses. I hope they can implement control for Wendy & Abi at the same time, so you move Wendy with WASD & move Abi with RMB for PC users - This is to improve the quality of Wendy + Abi gaming. Last thing is maybe they should add boss that can disable your survivor power just for fun.

Thanks for the enlightenment! Turns out the planar equipment damage calculation is how they do balancing for Wendy in post-rift world but not exactly from shadow/lunar power itself.

[yigejuhao]

It's not that players necessarily want Wendy to be strong, but rather that the focus of klei's recent updates has been more on combat. This is all due to klei's updates. Moreover, Wendy players don't need Wendy to be strong! What Wendy players want is a redesign of Wendy's skill tree !

[Steorra]

56 minutes ago, mima_ said:

why? does being neutral to mobs give any benefit in late game ?
 

Not only DPS is valuable in end game. 

[mima_]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Not only DPS is valuable in end game.

??? show me example perhaps? cus i cant imagine what ur idea of this benefits

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

Being hostile to neutral mobs is not Wortox's main weakness.  That is barely consequential.  It is getting half benefit from food (for hunger, sanity, and health, which makes managing those harder.  Especially sanity.).  That has not been deleted, and not a single person has asked for it to be deleted because weaknesses and downsides are good for the game as the person above was saying.  This is not a relevant comparison.

As you mentioned that to have weakness in endgame is necessary for balance, so Abi should not get survival ability buff, then why Wortox should?

And who would consider food consumption when you have endless jellybeans and soothing tea, which are unable be diminished by Wortox's "weakness"?

Even the dragon fruit pie and green mushrooms would be endless for consuming in that situation.

 

4 minutes ago, mima_ said:

??? show me example perhaps? cus i cant imagine what ur idea of this benefits

What example? Abi survival ability is not DPS as well, is this enough?

And Abi survival ability is another QoL thing as same as Wortox de-monster ability. Since we could easily to have endless cure-all in endgame as well, just like foods for Wortox.

And if you think de-monster have no benefit, please go create a post to suggest Klei to rework this effect.

[mima_]

15 minutes ago, Steorra said:

What example? Abi survival ability is not DPS as well, is this enough?

And Abi survival ability is another QoL thing as same as Wortox de-monster ability. Since we could easily to have endless cure-all in endgame as well, just like foods for Wortox.

And if you think de-monster have no benefit, please go create a post to suggest Klei to rework this effect.

u said " For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs." 
i ask why 
you then said DPS.
i become more confused what DPS that benefit wortox being non-monster creature why this come into wendy ? lmao 
u use pig and bunny on late game or what? 
wortox being a neutral mobs/non-monster kind is basically just a theme perks that barely give anything change to his gameplay. 
i never dissatisfied with this this basically flavouring to make the scale theme fit.
you just baffled me that u bring this as so OP perks that being given to wortox so they should change wendy skill tree lmao 

what with "dont say anything if we dont know anything about one characters?" i hear it somewhere before

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, mima_ said:

why? does being neutral to mobs give any benefit in late game ?

Here are some of my thoughts: I believe that Wortox's neutral to mobs skill has some value in long-term playthroughs, especially in multiplayer. Your teammates may have built some Pigman houses (either for practical or aesthetic purposes), and they might use Bunnymen to control the bats at the cave entrance. This is where the neutral to mobs skill comes in handy.

 

However, this seems to have digressed from the topic of the post. This post was discussing Wendy's skill tree; how did we bring up Wortox?

[Steorra]

21 minutes ago, mima_ said:

43 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Not only DPS is valuable in end game. 

you then said DPS.

I guess we have some misunderstood maybe.

I mean DPS is not the only meaningful thing for endgame.

[Peasant]

20 minutes ago, mima_ said:

u said " For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs." 
i ask why 
you then said DPS.
i become more confused what DPS that benefit wortox being non-monster creature why this come into wendy ? lmao 
u use pig and bunny on late game or what? 
wortox being a neutral mobs/non-monster kind is basically just a theme perks that barely give anything change to his gameplay. 
i never dissatisfied with this this basically flavouring to make the scale theme fit.
you just baffled me that u bring this as so OP perks that being given to wortox so they should change wendy skill tree lmao 

what with "dont say anything if we dont know anything about one characters?" i hear it somewhere before

What are you 2 talking about…

He said that "Wortox's main weakness is deleted", you asked "why? does being neutral to mobs give any benefit in late game ?", he said not only DPS is valuable in endgame, by which he meant that being neutral to mobs is not a DPS benefit but a QoL benefit, you seems to have misunderstood it, reckoning he meant that "being neutral to mobs is a dps benefit"

[mima_]

8 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Here are some of my thoughts: I believe that Wortox's neutral to mobs skill has some value in long-term playthroughs, especially in multiplayer. Your teammates may have built some Pigman houses (either for practical or aesthetic purposes), and they might use Bunnymen to control the bats at the cave entrance. This is where the neutral to mobs skill comes in handy.

and u think up until now there no problem with it sooo.. being neutral or not basically change nothing ... especially late game as he speaks.
there wortox and webber this was not new and there is never really a problem with gameplay as monster.
they still can make pig farm even playing solo and farm every fullmoon if you guys dont know how let me know i can teach you lmao 

i am a player who basically dont want to destroy any natural spawned pig houses having them scattered around isnt a problem 

 

8 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

how did we bring up Wortox?

steorra did. the statement confuse me and now confuse me even more with his new statement.

4 minutes ago, YXukun said:

He said that "Wortox's main weakness is deleted",

why not quote whole sentence ?. 

6 minutes ago, YXukun said:

he said not only DPS is valuable in endgame, by which he meant that being neutral to mobs is not a DPS benefit but a QoL benefit,

it was a niche perks to fit theme that basically noone really have problem in first place
but talks like it a super good perks that delete his "main weakness" 
and comparing this two with his last sentence: 

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

So is there any good reason to make Wendy to have some unavoidable critical weakness which in a complete different situation as current Wortox?

welp u can argue but why bring other skill tree to compare what u want for wendy's

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, mima_ said:

and u think up until now there no problem with it sooo.. being neutral or not basically change nothing ... especially late game as he speaks.
there wortox and webber this was not new and there is never really a problem with gameplay as monster.
they still can make pig farm even playing solo and farm every fullmoon if you guys dont know how let me know i can teach you lmao 

i am a player who basically dont want to destroy any natural spawned pig houses having them scattered around isnt a problem 

 

steorra did. the statement confuse me and now confuse me even more with his new statement.

why not quote whole sentence ?. 

it was a niche perks to fit theme that basically noone really have problem in first place
but talks like it a super good perks that delete his "main weakness" 
and comparing this two with his last sentence: 

welp u can argue but why bring other skill tree to compare what u want for wendy's

If we talk about "balance" why we shouldn't to check other skill trees for considering what balance we currently have?

 

[Peasant]

3 minutes ago, mima_ said:

why not quote whole sentence ?. 

me lazy

4 minutes ago, mima_ said:

it was a niche perks to fit theme that basically noone really have problem in first place
but talks like it a super good perks that delete his "main weakness" 
and comparing this two with his last sentence:

The thing is…Wortox have but 2 weakness, 1 is food, which is never a problem in endgame; the is being a monster, which now is deleted by the neutral skills, so I reckon saying

 

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

For endgame Wortox has ability to completely delete his main weakness of being hostile to neutral mobs.

does makes some sense.

[mima_]

Just now, Steorra said:

If we talk about "balance" why we shouldn't being other skill trees to compare what balance we currently have?

comparing something that have no relation like at all yeah .. good . i cant wendy's fan patriotism is too strong, i might just move on . that good giggles tho. never once i found being a monster would be a super hardcore downsides to someone 

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, mima_ said:

comparing something that have no relation like at all yeah .. good . i cant wendy's fan patriotism is too strong, i might just move on . that good giggles tho. never once i found being a monster would be a super hardcore downsides to someone 

Huh? No relation?

It's more like that you prefer Wortox to delete his main downside but you personally think Wendy should not.

To define that being a monster is not a character downside is just like a simply lie when most of current characters is friendly to the neutral mobs.

Also I personally have no problem to against lunar mobs. It is not hardcore for me. And to fight lunar mobs with Wes is still easily for me. So I guess Abi's survival ability is not a downside for Wendy now?

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, mima_ said:

i cant wendy's fan patriotism is too strong

What does the word "patriotism" towards Wendy mean? I'm really curious, it even made me look it up in the dictionary.