Why does wendy need to be able to destroy every boss?

[Ruperstiltskin]

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

You can just go to a public server that is fighting celestial champion and contribute a hit or two, and then have Gestalt Abigail unlocked in all new worlds from first autumn.  This is not at all locked behind beating the game like Walter/Wortox affinities.

I think people forget that skill trees affinities that you can get prerifts are mostly weaker to some degree (Ignore willow's) than those you get only post rifts (like wormwood or wortox) with post rift equipment

[lio516]

4 hours ago, Primalflower said:

and at this point i'm just so confused

In fact, Wendy's players do not want to be able to easily fight all bosses, just because Abigail is too weak in the face of bosses, the damage to Wendy's skill tree comes from the comparison with Winona, Wattox, Willow, and the current Wendy's skill tree will only remind people of Wigford and Wilson, because many skills are only the cherry on top. There was no surprise and no desire to play, and because Wendy was so popular, people were looking forward to it for a long time, and the fact that it was very frustrating, so you could see a lot of dissatisfaction, but it didn't mean that we wanted op Abigail, we just wanted good skill trees that would make the game more fun, Instead of trying to put us off with a bunch of useless stuff just to add a skill tree

[Mysterious box]

14 minutes ago, lio516 said:

In fact, Wendy's players do not want to be able to easily fight all bosses, just because Abigail is too weak in the face of bosses, the damage to Wendy's skill tree comes from the comparison with Winona, Wattox, Willow, and the current Wendy's skill tree will only remind people of Wigford and Wilson, because many skills are only the cherry on top. There was no surprise and no desire to play, and because Wendy was so popular, people were looking forward to it for a long time, and the fact that it was very frustrating, so you could see a lot of dissatisfaction, but it didn't mean that we wanted op Abigail, we just wanted good skill trees that would make the game more fun, Instead of trying to put us off with a bunch of useless stuff just to add a skill tree

I don't understand how her damage output on the shadow side is already very high while her gestalt side was given functions that would improve survivability via her fleeing combat and not being able to be 1 shot within a reasonable range so it feels like the idea is damage vs survivability which seems like a fair enough trade?

This is on top of all the extra quality of life and new skills she received.

[LitulLola]

9 minutes ago, Koomin said:

You can just go to a public server that is fighting celestial champion and contribute a hit or two, and then have Gestalt Abigail unlocked in all new worlds from first autumn.  This is not at all locked behind beating the game like Walter/Wortox affinities.

Honestly that didn't even cross my mind, I only play solo on console. But if someone wants to cheat that way nothing is stopping them from using commands to Insta unlock her. Should that prevent me from having a good gestalt Abby, doing it the intended way? I hope not, limiting characters because of greifing or cheating has never rang true or fair to me. 

How is Walter/Wortox locked but not Wendy? (Haven't played them yet) So if it's not locked then lets lock it! Maybe we need to offer a crown shard to the Moondial before we can transform her to gestalt form?

[LitulLola]

24 minutes ago, Cdijk16 said:

You don't need to beat CC in the current world in order to have access to gestalt abigail, you can beat it in any world and have access to gestalt abigail from day 1 on all future runs. You don't even need to beat it yourself, you can have someone else do most of the work for you.

 

[Koomin]

13 minutes ago, LitulLola said:

Honestly that didn't even cross my mind, I only play solo on console. But if someone wants to cheat that way nothing is stopping them from using commands to Insta unlock her. Should that prevent me from having a good gestalt Abby, doing it the intended way? I hope not, limiting characters because of greifing or cheating has never rang true or fair to me. 

How is Walter/Wortox locked but not Wendy? (Haven't played them yet) So if it's not locked then lets lock it! Maybe we need to offer a crown shard to the Moondial before we can transform her to gestalt form?

Wortox for instance has alignment bonuses that specifically need gear only available in a world once celestial champion or ancient fuelweaver has been defeated in that world (bright shade gear or shadow scythe) making it impossible to use before rifts are open (you can still have the skill it just doesn't do anything).

I believe the design intent of the Abigail forms is to have them available pre-rifts using the method I mentioned above (Jason discussed it in a previous release, the same solution you gave was proposed though).  It seems to me the easiest fix of that is what they want is to tune the pre/post rift strength by reducing damage if it's too high (shadow only currently in my opinion) but making some of the damage planar to help it be viable post-rift (both in my opinion).

[No_light]

13 hours ago, Primalflower said:

她不是会在生命值低的时候躲起来并主动躲避吗？与游戏中的其他跟随者相比，这已经相当多了

Have you really used Wendy?

[Primalflower]

2 hours ago, No_light said:

Have you really used Wendy?

I have played through several worlds with wendy and each time i do i stomp all over the game in a way that is unsatisfying so she is not one of my "mains"

[Lee lol]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

我和 wendy 一起玩过几个世界，每次我都以一种不满意的方式在整个游戏中踩踏，所以她不是我的“主力”之一

I'm guessing you haven't experienced the post-rift content with Wendy, right?

[Primalflower]

8 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

I'm guessing you haven't experienced the post-rift content with Wendy, right?

I have

[LitulLola]

12 hours ago, Koomin said:

Wortox for instance has alignment bonuses that specifically need gear only available in a world once celestial champion or ancient fuelweaver has been defeated in that world (bright shade gear or shadow scythe) making it impossible to use before rifts are open (you can still have the skill it just doesn't do anything).

Thank you for explaining this! Actually they can cheat it by turning rifts to on and crafting the gear. Does this mean we should nerf him to the ground? No that would be ridiculous and unfair to Wortox and those that play him the intended way. I'm just asking for the same consideration. I don't understand making a mediocre Abby for pre rift if it's A post rift perk.

[Xplan]

1 小时前，Primalflower 说：

我有

感觉如何，Abigail 还能帮助你面对新的挑战吗？

[Koomin]

10 minutes ago, LitulLola said:

Thank you for explaining this! Actually they can cheat it by turning rifts to on and crafting the gear. Does this mean we should nerf him to the ground? No that would be ridiculous and unfair to Wortox and those that play him the intended way. I'm just asking for the same consideration. I don't understand making a mediocre Abby for pre rift if it's A post rift perk.

Maybe it wasn't clear but these are not the same things at all.  Affinity Abigail is available in all worlds at the start of the game without "cheating" (as you are referring to it) after seeing one of the bosses die in any previous world as Wendy (which is not a cheat, and has a bunch of methods to reach varying from trivial to harder). This is why being balanced for that period of the game is relevant.  Starting a fresh game with affinity Abigail is the intended way to play and had been stated as such in dev notes. Affinity Wortox you would have to "cheat" by activating rifts immediately in each new world, which is an entirely different situation, and not the intended way (although also fine).

[LitulLola]

34 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Maybe it wasn't clear but these are not the same things at all.  Affinity Abigail is available in all worlds at the start of the game without "cheating" (as you are referring to it) after seeing one of the bosses die in any previous world as Wendy (which is not a cheat, and has a bunch of methods to reach varying from trivial to harder). This is why being balanced for that period of the game is relevant.  Starting a fresh game with affinity Abigail is the intended way to play and had been stated as such in dev notes. Affinity Wortox you would have to "cheat" by activating rifts immediately in each new world, which is an entirely different situation, and not the intended way (although also fine).

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Although I don't ever start a new world with previously unlocked skill tree's (I reset the tree and don't unlock them till late game) but that's a personal choice. You still need to do the moonstone event, shadow pieces, pearl quest, CK, archives, ancient guardian, fuelwever, moonstone event and CC to unlock her (or any characters lunar affinity perk) as u stated previously, this can be cheated (which I never even thought of but imo is cheating). So isn't every character in the same boat? If they need equipment rifts can be just turned on, so it doesn't really protect them from being unlocked early either? So why just nerf Abby? When every character is just a console command away?

I appreciate u taking the time to explain this to me. I can understand your view/opinion now. Even if it doesn't change my own, I can appreciate it 

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, LitulLola said:

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Although I don't ever start a new world with previously unlocked skill tree's (I reset the tree and don't unlock them till late game) but that's a personal choice. You still need to do the moonstone event, shadow pieces, pearl quest, CK, archives, ancient guardian, fuelwever, moonstone event and CC to unlock her (or any characters lunar affinity perk) as u stated previously, this can be cheated (which I never even thought of but imo is cheating). So isn't every character in the same boat? If they need equipment rifts can be just turned on, so it doesn't really protect them from being unlocked early either? So why just nerf Abby? When every character is just a console command away?

If you reset the skill tree every time like you are saying that is a pretty fun way to play and having affinity Abigail at the start of the game doesn't apply to you.  The majority of people don't play like that though.

My idea anyway is to make Abigail weaker pre-rifts (when the way that you play you don't even have her) and stronger post-rift (when you do) by reducing her damage and changing it to more planar, so this would actually be a buff, and not a nerf, for the way that you play (since planar damage is more relevant post-rift when you would have it, and this would make her do more damage overall vs post-rift planar enemies).  Unless I'm missing something this would make Abigail mostly stronger for you.

[RiceMilk]

Firstly, we must consider the experience of any character in confronting any boss.

The real question is, why is Wendy weaker than characters without combat abilities when facing post-rift bosses?

Why the abilities of a combat character can't be applied where they should be most needed?

 

Moreover, Abigail is Wendy's core character, why make a character with clear characteristics become an ordinary character when facing a post-rift boss?

 

If you think Abigail was too powerful in the early stages of the game, resulting in a poor gaming experience. That should also be a modification of this matter, not a punishment for Wendy on the skill tree.

[LitulLola]

14 minutes ago, Koomin said:

If you reset the skill tree every time like you are saying that is a pretty fun way to play and having affinity Abigail at the start of the game doesn't apply to you.  The majority of people don't play like that though.

My idea anyway is to make Abigail weaker pre-rifts (when the way that you play you don't even have her) and stronger post-rift (when you do) by reducing her damage and changing it to more planar, so this would actually be a buff, and not a nerf, for the way that you play (since planar damage is more relevant post-rift when you would have it, and this would make her do more damage overall vs post-rift planar enemies).  Unless I'm missing something this would make Abigail mostly stronger for you.

I do, it's just the way I like to play the game. It does get annoying with the constant prompt to spend ur insight points tho. What ur suggesting would be fine but it's not even remotely close to what she is at the moment. She's neither better early/ mid game or post rift. Even after essentially beating the game to get her. Which makes me super sad. I really like her as a character but rarely play her because she excels against small mobs that I don't need help with and she's not great against most bosses. Especially post rift where I play most of the time. I wouldn't utilize most of her skill tree but can see where some players could pre rift. So thats ok. The only one I was excited about/was helpful to me was nerfed into oblivion.

[Steorra]

Why does Wendy have to be weaker than Wilson in some particular situation? Why we should not to fix those situation?

[djturner]

14 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Why does Wendy have to be weaker than Wilson in some particular situation? Why we should not to fix those situation?

Because she's a character with weaknesses/drawbacks. Ideally, EVERY character is weaker than Wilson in some particular situation. That's what gives Wilson a purpose for existing.

[Steorra]

17 minutes ago, djturner said:

Because she's a character with weaknesses/drawbacks. Ideally, EVERY character is weaker than Wilson in some particular situation. That's what gives Wilson a purpose for existing.

Could you start a post in beta forum to give against voices to Wortox current skill tree, since their nice side skill tree completed delete a weakness theyhave before?

Or I would questioning if there has double standard between Wendy and Wortox.

[ColdHeaven]

36 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Why does Wendy have to be weaker than Wilson in some particular situation? Why we should not to fix those situation?

alright alright we get it, klei should add a perk to give wendy wilson damage.

[djturner]

27 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Could you start a post in beta forum to give against voices to Wortox current skill tree, since their nice side skill tree completed delete a weakness theyhave before?

Or I would questioning if there has double standard between Wendy and Wortox.

If you're referring to the Nice effect of removing the "monster" tag from Wortox, built within the node that makes that happen is the cementing of an additional weakness, that his soul consumption drains more sanity. This forces him to make a choice between more sanity loss w/ souls or inefficient hunger management with normal food.

Wendy's disadvantage - her only disadvantage - is that she deals Wes levels of damage without Abigail. But with Abigail her own multiplier gets to 115% due to Vex, and Abigail's damage considerably adds to this. Thus, if she is to have any drawback whatsoever, any conceivable reason for being weak in any circumstance, there must be at least a chance that Abigail can die in some content.* That goes for Shadow Abigail and, despite her being better at surviving, it even has to go for Lunar Abigail as well. That just has to happen for her design to make any sense, for her to be a meaningful character with an actual drawback.

Abi needed some planar defense and smoother controls. She got both. She even got Lunar Abigail if you really want to prioritize keeping her alive, at the expense of raw DPS but potentially making for more damage overall if it means she has more uptime. I can almost understand being disappointed in her tree on some creative level (though I look at Wilson and Wolfgang and then back at Wendy), but in terms of power, Wendy is eating very well.

*EDIT: Trying to be intellectually honest here as I've thought about it some more, the other option is for enemies that Abigail can't interact with, like pure Shadow enemies, as that effectively puts Wendy in the Wes role. Obviously the game has done that as well and it should be considered. I am all for Abigail being more survivable than she currently is (in live), but I do think she got a bit of that even if she didn't get the armor value or the player tag for damage.

[arubaro]

Because requiring player imput allows room for mistakes and mistakes frustrate people who dont like to make an effort when playing or in general

58 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Why does Wendy have to be weaker than Wilson in some particular situation? Why we should not to fix those situation?

Search in google "downside"

Why does wilson have to be waaaay weaker than wendy in most situations?

[No_light]

6 hours ago, Primalflower said:

我和温迪一起玩过好几个世界，每次我都以一种不令人满意的方式践踏整个游戏，所以她不是我的“主角”之一

Oh! Have you ever used Wendy to fight Possessed Varg, Crystal Deerclops, Armored Bearger?
Can wendy really trample on them, or is Wendy more like a Wes in the face of them?
It's really worth your try

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, djturner said:

If you're referring to the Nice effect of removing the "monster" tag from Wortox, built within the node that makes that happen is the cementing of an additional weakness, that his soul consumption drains more sanity. This forces him to make a choice between more sanity loss w/ souls or inefficient hunger management with normal food.
 

It seems more like an excuse for defence.

For most experienced Wortox mainly, I guess they would prefer to use naughty build for early game, then switch into nice build for end game.

I can't understand how the sanity loss from eating souls would be an "additional weakness" in end game when we have endless food resources.

Or could we to make Wendy have ability to fight planar AOE bosses more easily with a sacrifice to food sanity effectiveness, which would make her another weakness of shadow creatures more worse?

I really don't care about such "sacrifice".