Lee lol Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 I think a lot of people would agree that Wolfgang, Wigfrid and Wendy's skill trees are the most boring of all. On the one hand, because their own combat mechanics are already perfect, and there are no obvious shortcomings; On the other hand, I'm guessing that because the designers thought they were already strong, they gave them skills that simply increased stats, or skills that didn't work(Wigfrid’s Bull Taming, Battle Round Shield, Wolfgang's Whistle, Wendy's Petal Transformation). I agree that the designers didn't want them to get too strong through the skill tree so as not to upset the balance of the game. But he doesn't seem to know how to make the skill tree more interesting without making them too strong. What is the reason behind this? All three of these characters are combat roles, and they are all the most used by novices, simple and have good damage. They're pretty good in combat when they don't have a skill tree (except for some dimensional damage). So what is the goal of their skill tree? Getting stronger? Now it seems that most of their skill tree is focused on the combat side, but the results are not ideal, so I wonder why their skill tree is not more focused on the quality of life aspect...... But it seems difficult to have some creative ideas in this regard. So designing skill trees for these characters is hard for designers. How to make them less strong and still have a certain amount of fun at the same time. In fact, I've only played once or twice since Wolfgang and Wigfrid skill trees were updated. I think the most useful thing in Wolfgang's skill tree is the increase in mining efficiency, Wigfrid's charging spear is fun, and the other skills don't seem to be very useful, and that's all I know about their skill tree...... However, I think Wendy's skill tree is more interesting than the other two at the moment. Partly because of the lot of feedback from Wendy's players. Maybe the final version will surprise us when it goes live. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
purelove Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 In fact, as a survival game, intensity should not be a limit to creativity, because no matter how powerful, there are some characters who are still the strongest even without updating their skill trees. In fact, the skill tree should make up for the defective character, which is my desire. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peasant Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 Willow&Winona: Hello there Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee lol Posted December 5, 2024 Author Share Posted December 5, 2024 3 minutes ago, YXukun said: Willow&Winona: Hello there Their skill tree is of the most interesting. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee lol Posted December 5, 2024 Author Share Posted December 5, 2024 2 hours ago, purelove said: 事实上，作为一款生存游戏，强度不应该是创造力的限制，因为无论多么强大，有些角色即使不更新技能树，仍然是最强的。 其实技能树应该补上有缺陷的字符，这是我的愿望。 It's one thing to make up for flaws, (like Woody), but it's probably not fun for a character to be completely flawless, like Wolfgang. For example, some people think that not being able to fight shadow monsters and Abigail is too brittle is Wendy's weakness, but it is also her characteristic, so it shouldn't be strengthened too much, such as permanently increasing Abigail's HP limit to 1200, which is not fun. I don't think Wendy can change anything too much in terms of combat. I'd rather they give Wendy some quality of life updates, such as more interesting potions, special use of urns, improvement of grave lines, etc., because Wendy is actually a character with a lot of characters, she has research on spiritism, likes flowers, likes to talk about death, and these can be made into something fun. 弥补缺陷是一方面，（比如伍迪）但是一个角色完全没有缺陷恐怕也不好玩，就像沃尔夫冈。比如有人就觉得不能打影怪和阿比盖尔太脆了是温蒂的弱点，但也是她的特色，所以不应该加强太多，比如把阿比盖尔的血量上限永久提升到1200，那就不好玩了。 我觉得温蒂在战斗方面已经没法再大改了。 我更愿意他们给温蒂一些生活质量更新，比如更多有趣的药水，骨灰罐的特殊使用方法，坟墓线的完善等等，因为温蒂其实是一个人设很丰富的角色，她对通灵术有研究，喜欢花朵，喜欢谈论死亡，这些都可以做一些好玩的东西出来。 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzzzzzzzzz Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 这是生存游戏，不是竞技游戏，提升角色的可玩度，是皆大欢喜的事情 在一个生存游戏下面一直强调一定要平衡一定要平衡，挺可笑的说实话 有趣的内容才是这个游戏主体，不是所谓的平衡 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PunkShark Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 To answer your main question. Yes. Yes it does Skill trees are a bag of QoL additions to a character, but also progression of combat skills to lategame. It is not just about getting strong for the sake of it. But to make all characters worth using for the lategame and rift content which is still an ongoing project of harder content. It is to enhance their already given perks they had before. And because these characters are already combatant playstyles the skilltree will enhance on those things because that is their role in the game. And since characters are never equal in their skills, they can be very simple playstyles, simple characters. But if you look at someone like Wormwood and his skill tree he has 25 skills and only 4-5 of those are combat related, everything else is either farm or plant related. But he does still start with bramble related defensive tems so it's only logical for him to get some enhancements on that. But he's also a lot less simple than just Wolfgang with his mighty fists and working out. Or Wendy providing safety from Abigail Wigfrid is a combatant character but not for the same reasons as Wolfgang, she starts off with her armor and helmet, providing utility to her team with songs or herself. So, it's only logical her skill tree would expand on those aspects. But overall she was already treated as a decent character which is why she's also gotten perks that are more or less gimmicky. What's different about someone from Wendy to Willow (for example) Is that one of these were already a good character and the other had a low radius lighter who had no substance. And what most of the already good characters need is a boost in lategame. But then we have someone like winona, she was already considered a strong character but she was overall quite boring and the amount of gadgets felt very small. She was treated as one o the highest swap-characters because she overall felt quite aimless and pretty much all her perks could be used outside of her own power. So she, herself felt obsolete. really a big matter of the skill tree's overall quality depends on the character itself and how well their role already does. It is night and day between some of them and that is because some need more substance than others. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee lol Posted December 5, 2024 Author Share Posted December 5, 2024 13 minutes ago, PunkShark said: To answer your main question. Yes. Yes it does Skill trees are a bag of QoL additions to a character, but also progression of combat skills to lategame. It is not just about getting strong for the sake of it. But to make all characters worth using for the lategame and rift content which is still an ongoing project of harder content. It is to enhance their already given perks they had before. And because these characters are already combatant playstyles the skilltree will enhance on those things because that is their role in the game. And since characters are never equal in their skills, they can be very simple playstyles, simple characters. But if you look at someone like Wormwood and his skill tree he has 25 skills and only 4-5 of those are combat related, everything else is either farm or plant related. But he does still start with bramble related defensive tems so it's only logical for him to get some enhancements on that. But he's also a lot less simple than just Wolfgang with his mighty fists and working out. Or Wendy providing safety from Abigail Wigfrid is a combatant character but not for the same reasons as Wolfgang, she starts off with her armor and helmet, providing utility to her team with songs or herself. So, it's only logical her skill tree would expand on those aspects. But overall she was already treated as a decent character which is why she's also gotten perks that are more or less gimmicky. What's different about someone from Wendy to Willow (for example) Is that one of these were already a good character and the other had a low radius lighter who had no substance. And what most of the already good characters need is a boost in lategame. But then we have someone like winona, she was already considered a strong character but she was overall quite boring and the amount of gadgets felt very small. She was treated as one o the highest swap-characters because she overall felt quite aimless and pretty much all her perks could be used outside of her own power. So she, herself felt obsolete. really a big matter of the skill tree's overall quality depends on the character itself and how well their role already does. It is night and day between some of them and that is because some need more substance than others. Yes, since the three are mainly combat roles, their skill trees must focus on combat for a big part, also make them better adjust to the post-rift content. I am just regret that their skill trees are not as interesting as others, maybe this is the price for being strong. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
purelove Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 2 hours ago, Lee lol said: It's one thing to make up for flaws, (like Woody), but it's probably not fun for a character to be completely flawless, like Wolfgang. For example, some people think that not being able to fight shadow monsters and Abigail is too brittle is Wendy's weakness, but it is also her characteristic, so it shouldn't be strengthened too much, such as permanently increasing Abigail's HP limit to 1200, which is not fun. I don't think Wendy can change anything too much in terms of combat. I'd rather they give Wendy some quality of life updates, such as more interesting potions, special use of urns, improvement of grave lines, etc., because Wendy is actually a character with a lot of characters, she has research on spiritism, likes flowers, likes to talk about death, and these can be made into something fun. 弥补缺陷是一方面，（比如伍迪）但是一个角色完全没有缺陷恐怕也不好玩，就像沃尔夫冈。比如有人就觉得不能打影怪和阿比盖尔太脆了是温蒂的弱点，但也是她的特色，所以不应该加强太多，比如把阿比盖尔的血量上限永久提升到1200，那就不好玩了。 我觉得温蒂在战斗方面已经没法再大改了。 我更愿意他们给温蒂一些生活质量更新，比如更多有趣的药水，骨灰罐的特殊使用方法，坟墓线的完善等等，因为温蒂其实是一个人设很丰富的角色，她对通灵术有研究，喜欢花朵，喜欢谈论死亡，这些都可以做一些好玩的东西出来。 Any seemingly flawed character, with her performance, the flaw is no longer a flaw, but, I agree with fun, but if this fun function is the same as skin function, then why not buy skin? The first thing he did was to have fun and make money, like Wanda making her own weapon, rather than something that looked useful but actually didn't work at all, and giving Abigail 1200 health was such a thing. 任何看似有缺陷的角色，加上她的性能，缺陷都不再是缺陷，但是，我同意搞趣味性，但是如果这个趣味性作用和皮肤作用一样，那为什么不买皮肤呢？他首先这个趣味性玩法，要有收益，就像是旺达制作自己的专属武器一样，而不是一个看上去有用，但是实际上一点用都没有的东西，给阿比盖尔加到1200血量就是这样一个东西。 Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
loopuleasa Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 Yes Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
purelove Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 2 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said: 这是生存游戏，不是竞技游戏，提升角色的可玩度，是皆大欢喜的事情 在一个生存游戏下面一直强调一定要平衡一定要平衡，挺可笑的说实话 有趣的内容才是这个游戏主体，不是所谓的平衡 The point is not balance, the point is, don't limit her creativity because of the so-called Wendy op Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzzzzzzzzz Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 15分钟前，纯爱说： 重点不是平衡，重点是，不要因为所谓的Wendy op而限制她的创造力 yes Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdsaax Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 I mean Wolfgang has mundane skilltree because his powerbudget is already very high and he doesn't need to offer more than being a reliable 2x damage stick at all times so his skilltree "enchances" speedruns a little with critical hits and secures his damage in late game for casual players to maintain his premise Wigfrid is kinda mundane because her kit is pretty solid too also she offers progression, synergies like charged elding spear, infinite celestial crown or enjoying shadow maul without major drawbacks +not to mention built in supporting abilities on top of being offensive character Skilltrees are supposed to expand on the characters (Willow and Wormwood) or help with delivering their premise (Wortox and Walter) so their experience is tangible. and characters above don't really have issues with delivering their power fantasies and they have their own reasons to keep playing as them as for Wendy I think she was already pretty complex? her potions feel like skilltree before skilltrees so plain QOL stuff like basket potion, late game treats and lil tool for repositioning aren't exactly revolutionary, but they surely undust Wendy who in my humble opinion: didn't really fail with her premise of having reliable summon? not to say that Wendy shouldn't get anything cool, but it's pretty difficult to expand on her because she seems like pretty healthy character and yet Klei tries their best to not leave Wendy mains disappointed Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peasant Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 7 minutes ago, asdsaax said: I mean Wolfgang has mundane skilltree because his powerbudget is already very high and he doesn't need to offer more than being a reliable 2x damage stick at all times so his skilltree "enchances" speedruns a little with critical hits and secures his damage in late game for casual players to maintain his premise Wigfrid is kinda mundane because her kit is pretty solid too also she offers progression, synergies like charged elding spear, infinite celestial crown or enjoying shadow maul without major drawbacks +not to mention built in supporting abilities on top of being offensive character Skilltrees are supposed to expand on the characters (Willow and Wormwood) or help with delivering their premise (Wortox and Walter) so their experience is tangible. and characters above don't really have issues with delivering their power fantasies and they have their own reasons to keep playing as them as for Wendy I think she was already pretty complex? her potions feel like skilltree before skilltrees so plain QOL stuff like basket potion, late game treats and lil tool for repositioning aren't exactly revolutionary, but they surely undust Wendy who in my humble opinion: didn't really fail with her premise of having reliable summon? not to say that Wendy shouldn't get anything cool, but it's pretty difficult to expand on her because she seems like pretty healthy character and yet Klei tries their best to not leave Wendy mains disappointed I reckon that Wendy's skilltree should focus on solving post-rift problems she faces, while avoid making her too powerful in pre-rift world. Yet klei seems now had done just the contrary… Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PunkShark Posted December 5, 2024 Share Posted December 5, 2024 7 hours ago, asdsaax said: I mean Wolfgang has mundane skilltree because his powerbudget is already very high and he doesn't need to offer more than being a reliable 2x damage stick at all times so his skilltree "enchances" speedruns a little with critical hits and secures his damage in late game for casual players to maintain his premise Wigfrid is kinda mundane because her kit is pretty solid too also she offers progression, synergies like charged elding spear, infinite celestial crown or enjoying shadow maul without major drawbacks +not to mention built in supporting abilities on top of being offensive character Skilltrees are supposed to expand on the characters (Willow and Wormwood) or help with delivering their premise (Wortox and Walter) so their experience is tangible. and characters above don't really have issues with delivering their power fantasies and they have their own reasons to keep playing as them as for Wendy I think she was already pretty complex? her potions feel like skilltree before skilltrees so plain QOL stuff like basket potion, late game treats and lil tool for repositioning aren't exactly revolutionary, but they surely undust Wendy who in my humble opinion: didn't really fail with her premise of having reliable summon? not to say that Wendy shouldn't get anything cool, but it's pretty difficult to expand on her because she seems like pretty healthy character and yet Klei tries their best to not leave Wendy mains disappointed Couldn't have said it better* myself. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/161841-does-the-strength-of-the-character-itself-determine-the-upper-limit-of-the-skill-tree/#findComment-1768848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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