wortox So, inclinations, huh? (The Extended Cut Nobody Asked For)

[Dingle]

19 minutes ago, Jazzuo said:

i mean, you're saying that if you use a full jar soul you gain 200 sanity, and twintail heart is less than a full jar tho, besides you say that is easy to get souls, and you can waste it on sanity, but not on twintail hearts

If I "waste" them on sanity, I'm getting sanity.

A 200 health burst heal seems like a waste to me. That is a lot of overhealing, in my experience. The overheal just vanishes, a true waste. What boss fight would you say this is useful for? Maybe theres a niche for it I'm overlooking.

Bastion is way more efficient, and shift right click dropping souls is very fast.

I'd much rather use twintails for the teleports, personally.

[Master_NiX]

42 minutes ago, cropo said:

I think Wortox should get reduced penalties for eating regular food while nice.

I dont think that is needed. And that's from someone who plays Nice Wortox exclusively.

There is little to downside for using souls for food. Minus 10 for eating a soul, plus 5 for releasing a soul. Sanity management is very easy for Wortox now.

[Jazzuo]

36 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If I "waste" them on sanity, I'm getting sanity.

A 200 health burst heal seems like a waste to me. That is a lot of overhealing, in my experience. The overheal just vanishes, a true waste. What boss fight would you say this is useful for? Maybe theres a niche for it I'm overlooking.

Bastion is way more efficient, and shift right click dropping souls is very fast.

I'd much rather use twintails for the teleports, personally.

it's not 200 healing tho, it kinda depends, but wortox losses 2 healing for every other character, so if you heal idk 4 people besides you, you have 12 healing per soul making the burst heal 120 instead of the 200, this can decrease until 5, so 50 heal minimum, soul bastion just get better with more people i guess, but twintail heart is still good as an option and specially if you go naughty and want healing you can take this for 3 insight points

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Jazzuo said:

it's not 200 healing tho, it kinda depends, but wortox losses 2 healing for every other character, so if you heal idk 4 people besides you, you have 12 healing per soul making the burst heal 120 instead of the 200, this can decrease until 5, so 50 heal minimum, soul bastion just get better with more people i guess, but twintail heart is still good as an option and specially if you go naughty and want healing you can take this for 3 insight points

I can see maybe doing this for Naughty or Neutral. I was presuming that if you have Nice, you will just be using Soul Bastion.

[Jazzuo]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

I can see maybe doing this for Naughty or Neutral. I was presuming that if you have Nice, you will just be using Soul Bastion.

i mean yeah kinda, that's my problem with soul bastion tho, like it's a lot of overhealing in the nice side, and twintail heart losses a lot of healing value, and also when you drop your souls when you have more than the maximum. is kinda lame. nice side should have something to deal with overhealing tbh

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Jazzuo said:

i mean yeah kinda, that's my problem with soul bastion tho, like it's a lot of overhealing in the nice side, and twintail heart losses a lot of healing value, and also when you drop your souls when you have more than the maximum. is kinda lame. nice side should have something to deal with overhealing tbh

Overhealing thing for Nice would be great, though I'm assuming the devs dont like this. Soul Bastion delay is also a weaker kind of pseudo-overheal.

[crushcircuit]

13 hours ago, Dingle said:

My best builds force me into Neutral, anyway. Grabbing Nice or Naughty means I have to sacrifice something big, like soul damage or lunar/shadow alignment. It's really limiting. I have a big post on this in my Problems with Neutral Perks post, that you already saw.

i would definitely love to see them make neutrality a bit nicer. i had another post i was going to write up that also mentions either giving inclinations "unlocks" so that you can choose to lock yourself into an inclination, or bonuses about halfway into the inclinations. the "final" inclination perk would be something more game-changing like the current benefit for naughtiness inclination.

i think the former would be cooler, because it would give a way to lock yourself into an inclination so you can have it but still spec the way you wanted, if you so desired.

13 hours ago, Dingle said:

When I was messing with Nice, I got tons of sanity. It's because I'm really used to avoiding eating souls, from playing Wortox for quite awhile. Meaty Stew and Scotch Eggs 4ever.

Drop 3 souls and it's like eating cactus. As long as you don't eat souls.

that is interesting! i do think that eating souls should still be a viable option though, because it simply doesn't make sense mechanically or lore-wise to have souls just be outright worse than other food options, but niceness inclination currently impedes that.

i really enjoy having the option to eat souls at the very least. and especially if niceness is supposed to be a support branch, i like leaving the physical food for all of my friends and eating the souls instead so that we can both benefit equally. it makes for less food hunting overall, usually, and it's more enjoyable for me to be able to do. as it is now, i would likely also opt to be neutral instead of taking nice inclination as my friends do, just because i think that would be more fun and helpful for myself and others.

4 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I had a feeling this would happen, and it's why my initial recommendation was to remove the inclination's impact on sanity altogether. It's not newbie friendly and it can hurt people in the early game before access to way more food than you can deal with becomes a factor.

I was fine with the heal difference, but just wanted to see it reigned in a little (probably to 22.5 and 17.5 HP), and my opinion would be different if we kept it, and I'd just say "deal with it." My opinion would also change if Wortox could actually heal friendly mobs, but Bunnymen are still pretty meh in combat, and I'm just very uninterested in follower gameplay due to how non-interactive and niche it is. (8 years playing and a mountain of spools. Still refuse to unlock Wurt, fish farms be damned.)

i also don't find followers to be very fun to use, even if you COULD heal them. there's just no synergy with wortox at all in the current state, and i don't think that it's really his type of gameplay. anything they could do would kind of just make niceness inclination be a worse webber to me.

i don't think the healing changes from the first patch were actually super impactful, at least not enough to outweigh the sanity downsides.

4 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Firstly, wear a Top Hat/Tam o' Shanter and use Tents/Siesta Lean-To's. They're still full efficiency on Wortox.

I do want to note that your Soul farm is a really strong source for a quick heal to your sanity. I think the best option without Soul Pierce or a Shadow Reaper is to just abuse Bramble Husks in a Bee farm, or, ideally, a Killer Bee biome. Wortox happens to be really good at rushing the Celestial Portal if your server doesn't have a Wormwood.

But you should probably not be building for Nice inclination without a good reason to buff your heals. This would mean larger player counts or small servers with characters who have limited options for healing, specifically Wormwood. For the former, you can probably get a Willow, Wendy, Wigfrid, Woodie, WX, Winona, Walter, or Wormwood to help you with mass Soul farming. For the latter, both Woodie and Wormwood have AoEs and Bramble Husks make you self-sufficient. Willow can also just make you a sanity station.

You can also take Pleasant Pastorale for a daily Soul bonus on a Nice build pre-rifts, but I'd rather keep Overwhelming Greed and Soul Decoy I, personally.

this is all really interesting to hear, and i do think this advice is actually really neat to have in general. i'll certainly be keeping it in mind, whether or not changes go through and whether or not i actually use nice inclination in the future. (i will say that i HAVE been using a tamo for sure. it does help significantly, but it usually only helps in stretching my sanity just a bit farther than it would otherwise.)

4 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

This experience would be less painful if they just bring down the extremes here, yet again. This would probably end up being a 7.5 sanity loss and 3.75 gain.

It's mathematically inconsistent, if Naughty doesn't also change (pls do not), but I care more about balance anyway. With that in mind, I'd be down with the sanity loss staying at -10, but the sanity gain bumped to 7.5. At least, this way, you can drop some Souls pretty quickly to fuel up your Enlightened Crown on the Lunar alignment, so it'll be rewarding in the late game without wasting space or consuming resources for sanity food (though late game Banana Shakes are godly anyways.)

i agree, i think it would be easier if they just made it less extreme. when you just directly double stats like this it really makes the sanity hits add up. i also really hope they don't choose to nerf naughtiness to try and fix the issue, i ONLY want to see niceness get better. naughtiness is perfectly fine as it is, the inclination is genuinely really helpful and flexible. i think that should be the standard for balancing the rest of the tree, and the issue is that niceness inclination doesn't live up to that standard with its current perk and downsides.

again, i would not mind seeing them just make it a bit easier to keep a handle on. right now it just feels like there's something missing.

4 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I think that covers everything. Sorry I write so much about something so small.

no need to apologize! there's a reason why i named this thread the way i did, i tend to type a lot to make sure i articulate myself correctly. in case this reply hasn't made that clear LOL. i enjoy reading your thoughts on the matter

[Dingle]

25 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

that is interesting! i do think that eating souls should still be a viable option though, because it simply doesn't make sense mechanically or lore-wise to have souls just be outright worse than other food options, but niceness inclination currently impedes that.

i really enjoy having the option to eat souls at the very least. and especially if niceness is supposed to be a support branch, i like leaving the physical food for all of my friends and eating the souls instead so that we can both benefit equally. it makes for less food hunting overall, usually, and it's more enjoyable for me to be able to do. as it is now, i would likely also opt to be neutral instead of taking nice inclination as my friends do, just because i think that would be more fun and helpful for myself and others.

It's more viable than it ever was. Just like with neutral or pre-beta, its still "eat one soul, drop two". But now farming souls is potentially vastly faster.

Best way to do it is:

1. Eat souls to full, probably while farming. Bonus if your sanity was super low anyway.

2. Drop souls till your sanity is maxed, or when you need to avoid overload during farming.

3. Finish farming.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It's more viable than it ever was. Just like with neutral or pre-beta, its still "eat one soul, drop two". But now farming souls is potentially vastly faster.

Best way to do it is:

1. Eat souls to full, probably while farming. Bonus if your sanity was super low anyway.

2. Drop souls till your sanity is maxed, or when you need to avoid overload during farming.

3. Finish farming.

In addition, it is explicitly a perk by the time hunger's no longer a drain on your team's resources. Your healing gives you improved control over both health and sanity, and hunger becomes a complete non-issue. There were a lot of times pre-beta where I'd drop a ton of Souls on myself to avoid overloading, and gain a bunch of free sanity. (Usually, this was before a boss died, during bosses with tons of minions, before Hound attacks, before Treeguards or Spider Queens died, or before running any murder-related farms.) This absolutely hurts in the early game, unless deliberately farming Nightmare Fuel, but by time you have a stable farm for Souls, it actually can be a pretty big blessing.

On the flip side, I usually run a Naughty build, and I do feel like I'm missing out a bit by no longer being able to heal my sanity with Souls, even though the 2.5 sanity felt trivial. The quantities of Souls we manage now is drastically higher (too high...), so it ends up being pretty relevant to my ability to manage my sanity without food. It matters a lot less later in the game courtesy of the Void Robe and Enlightened Crown, and I kinda like being able to continue to eat Souls without any penalty at all too. They never spoil, and I never have to think about my food supply anymore unless it's for sanity restoration purposes exclusively.

Even with this in mind, I still think the extremes should be reduced, though. I think it's really important to help improve his accessibility to new players, and make the early game a little less painful. -10 sanity for a fistful of Soul is a bit too drastic.

Oh, and I forgot to mention it, but if you want to get off the Soul diet ASAP, Stone Fruit + Kelp are an absolute game changer and may be worth prioritizing more than usual, and you can ferry any of your friends to Lunar Island with a map teleport and Twin-tailed Hearts after going once, too. If any other friends get there first, the Cartographer's Desk can help.

[Bumber64]

On 12/2/2024 at 9:32 PM, crushcircuit said:

technically, eating spoiled meaty stew is better than eating a soul with Niceness inclination.

Technically, eating souls isn't very nice.

I don't actually see the nerf, though. Souls need to be released and eaten at a 2:1 ratio for nice and neutral in all cases? (You can bottom-out your sanity for a benefit.)

And naughty loses the ability to regain sanity from souls, no matter how many he has? Regardless of having 200 souls, they can't be used for sanity?

[Mike23Ua]

20 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I will say this becomes baffling when you look at Webber as well are we to assume he's not nice enough to not get treated as a monster?

Oh don’t worry, enough people will pitch a hissy fit to the point that Webber gets a nice side too.. and we will be living in an age of Dont Starve where the features that once made characters fun and unique, now make them all play exactly the same.

This may sound like an exaggeration, but really that’s what made Wortox, Webber and Wurt feel more “unique” in that some normally peaceful mobs would be hostile towards them, and some normally hostile mobs would be peaceful.

For Webber and Wurt respectively, that’s Spiders for Webber, and Merms and Frogs for Wurt.

Wortox should’ve had a peaceful side between krampii and called it a day.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wortox should’ve had a peaceful side between krampii and called it a day.

He's not a minion character, though. Every non-minion character has easy access (i.e., no insight point or one-man band) to pigs and bunnymen if they're inclined to use them. Wortox already has a more impactful downside without borrowing Webber's.

It's certainly annoying that Willow and Woody got perks to remove what little downside they had. Webber doesn't need that either, so we'll just assume Wortox is using imp magic for inclination.

(I'll also point out that it's a bit ironic that of Wurt/Wortox/Webber, only Webber is likely to carry meat yet can't use the coat of carrots. Edit: Well, meaty stew might be of significant value to nice Wortox.)

[Master_NiX]

15 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

He's not a minion character, though. Every non-minion character has easy access (i.e., no insight point or one-man band) to pigs and bunnymen if they're inclined to use them. Wortox already has a more impactful downside without borrowing Webber's.

It's certainly annoying that Willow and Woody got perks to remove what little downside they had. Webber doesn't need that either, so we'll just assume Wortox is using imp magic for inclination.

(I'll also point out that it's a bit ironic that of Wurt/Wortox/Webber, only Webber is likely to carry meat yet can't use the coat of carrots.)

honestly, in case of Pigs and Spiders. They do judge by appearance, which is why in Hamlet Webber got craftable mask, similar to the one Wurt can make. So I assume this might happen again, but for DST.

[Bumber64]

15 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

honestly, in case of Pigs and Spiders. They do judge by appearance, which is why in Hamlet Webber got craftable mask, similar to the one Wurt can make. So I assume this might happen again, but for DST.

Only if there's a reason to for content. Pig and rabbit king already overlook the monster aspect without disguise.

[Master_NiX]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Only if there's a reason to for content. Pig and rabbit king already overlook the monster aspect without disguise.

That was always the case for webber in original DS (dunno why), but Wurt gets denied by Pig King I believe.

[Bumber64]

9 minutes ago, Master_NiX said:

That was always the case for webber in original DS (dunno why), but Wurt gets denied by Pig King I believe.

I think the feeling with Wurt is mutual, and she gets her own king as a replacement. Wurt would probably have to restrain her urge to burn down hamlet and stab everyone. (Do hamlet pigs even know merms exist? Haven't played it.)

[Master_NiX]

6 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I think the feeling with Wurt is mutual, and she gets her own king as a replacement. Wurt would probably have to restrain her urge to burn down hamlet and stab everyone. (Do hamlet pigs even know merms exist? Haven't played it.)

dont remember merms themselves in hamlet worlds, but you can bring down hamlet pigs to RoG and they will probably fight.