Major improvements across the board needed for booster pack.

[mliyaa]

This is the lowest interest Ive seen in a Klei DLC and its sad because I like the ideas and concepts around the booster pack, however lackluster the execution.

 

What I like:

 

1. bionic dupes are space and resource efficient duplicants that rewards the player for building and storing power
2. Bionic dupes dont gasp for air or stress out easily making them complete tasks at half the time of a bio dupe
3. Power banks are what I always wanted for storing power efficiently. Previously the only method was through a steam room. 
4. Contrary to what some people are saying, this booster pack has a clear late game: automate everything! Data banks are the clear late game resource boss you have to clear. 
5. Booster packs instead of skills make bionic dupes much more streamlined that standard dupes. 
6. Flymos are a must have just for the cuteness value.

 

What I dont like: 

1. Technically this booster pack has more content than frosty planet pack but the content itself has less cohesion. Gunk has very little uses except gear balm, but duplicants produce as much gunk as the gear oil they use. phyto oil has no uses beyond mid game gear oil even though it is a sustainable method to get algae and dirt. Power bank crafting is awkward and you always need to rush eco power banks, because making metal banks will burn through your entire supply of metals if you don’t. 
2. Bionic duplicants has several glaring issues around their uses. One, while they dont need as much morale, they dont have a rally point so they tend to drop used eco power packs everywhere. Two, they dont have rooms so you are heavily reliant on passing by toilets and natural parks for morale. Three, when they work in low breathable locations, if they use up all their oxygen in the tank they will go into a death spiral of trying to get oxygen but not moving far enough to do so and never escape the location. 
3. There’s too much research needed to reach a point where you feel “fun” working around bionic duplicates, and that is usually after you get gear balm and eco power banks setup, before that its just a mad rush towards the power chargers.

What I would suggest:

 

1. Power banks should use either use less metals or bionic duplicates should use more power (can scale with the amount of boosters they use)
2. There should be a way to recycle used metal power banks.
3. There should be more tiers of power banks.
4. Bionic duplicants should have rooms/dock similar to standard duplicants where they go and replenish their oxygen supply and swap power banks.
5. Bionic duplicants should have more ways to increase morale such as the type of gear oil they are using.
6. I dont think gunk need more uses, instead, make slime easier to farm, maybe a bionic critter that consumes polluted water and dirt for slime. 
7. Petrol should also be available as gear oil.
8. There should more tiers of flymo, or can we upgrade the soldering station with boosters that improve flymos so we get flymos faster. Half the fun in the new pack is in flymos IMO. 
9. Flymos should be programmable, or there can be some building that programs flymos. 

[Cmagik]

I'm so sad that I havn't get to ty flymo yet and everyone talk about how cute and amazing they are T_T... (trying on the new moonlet ceres fragment... god is it rough... or maybe i'm just bad)

Anyway,

I kind of agree with everything, it's what I was bringing up on the discord yesterday. Some people say "just craft metal power bank" but I'm like... if I only do that I'll run out of ore by cycle 100.

Regarding the drop of eco-power bank, there should either be a "power bank station" where the dupes come and swap power bank or simply drop the empty one upon recharging. The later would be a very easy fix because by default they'd drop them at the eco-powerbank recharge station.

The oxygen concern is real. It could be as trivial as a forced rally point like a building (natural parc sign for instance, except it's O2 sign). Ideally we should be able to also set a value to tell dupe to come replenish when below a certain threshold.

 

I would like to bring some additional concern:

1- while I'm aware that the deal with the frost pack DLC is well... the cold. Making oil is really hard early game because you have no easy/good option to melt the gunk which freeze in an instant and melting isn't that easy.
On the other hand, I've never been so happy to see slime on ceres...

2- The advantage of the bionic is that they're very modular. However whenever you want to swap a booster for another one, they drop them everywhere.
A specific building/mean to easily manage which dupes has what and properly store boosters would be welcomed.

3- Bionic using a gasmask really feels like a waste... Atmosuit are different because they offer protection but gasmask? Could we set the Oxygen Mask check point to let Bionic pass through provided their oxygen meet a certain threshold?

4- They don't need much morale, but getting the moral is rough. We don't have the early bonus of interest, sleeping room, shower, food, eating in the grand hall etc etc. Sure we can use a natural reserve and such but again, a lot of hassle just the exceed 5 moral.

5- Very minor, perhaps just a self concern but.... Bionic dupes only come with a downside and no upside. the upside is the boosterpack they get but since it can be swapped it's kind of moot. Could something be added so that different bionic dupes feel different and not just "oh this one has -3 digging".

6- While they're already quite late game oriented... I feel like some Bionic dupe only recreational activities which can enhance them would fit neatly like an electric field dance floor, instead of the video game / phone they have "matrix experience" where they upload themselves for a few blocks. The electric field dancefloor could consume a modular amount of watt to give better buffs. (altough that's not an issue, just a wishlist suggestion that I suppose has been considered already)

7- I'm sure you've seen it but... I feel a decay on the uranium powerbank needs to be added... I don't feel like being able to drop a bajillion of those to generate 100k radbolt/cycle is well... meant to be. Everything should have a cost and there's litterally 0 cost to that. Just made them and profit, modular free infinite radiation.

 

I really love the DLC. I hope we get a surprise event like the geothermal station upon release !

 

[Primalflower]

22 hours ago, mliyaa said:

• Power bank crafting is awkward and you always need to rush eco power banks, because making metal banks will burn through your entire supply of metals if you don’t. 
• Power banks should use either use less metals or bionic duplicates should use more power (can scale with the amount of boosters they use)
• There should be a way to recycle used metal power banks.

I disagree with these. Power banks using as much metal as they do presents an interesting difference in resource consumption to regular dupes, and I think the pressure that they put on the early game is pretty cool, especially on forest starts.

At the same time, I think bionic duplicants should not use more power. The idea of 200w sounds like it isn't a lot, but it is a consistent drain, which is genuinely difficult to manage if you try to switch to eco power banks too early. a consistent 200w drain is nothing to sneeze at, rarely do I see a non-new player create a coal generator with 100% uptime, but that is what is necessary to run merely 3 bionic dupes. I think the way they consume power is remarkably balanced right now.

I think the system as it stands now correctly punishes you for switching to eco power banks too early, and being too afraid to run through some of your metal supply in exchange for running bionic duplicants. I have performed the early game of a rad ocean moonlet start, and bionic duplicants presented a fair, but clearly surmountable challenge in their metal consumption, and this is a start that provides only the bare minimum.

 

 

Otherwise, I agree that you should be able to designate "pit stops" for bionics somehow. I can easily see them dropping their eco power banks everywhere being a problem.

[Shintai]

2 dupes, 1 using a hamster wheel for eco power banks is enough to run both. And since they do not sleep or waste time on otherwise like farming, cooking and so on. They are amazingly good.

I agree with more structures with a purpose. As it is now you can run say 4-5 dupes with less than 10 structures forever.

[Cmagik]

35 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

The idea of 200w sounds like it isn't a lot, but it is a consistent drain, which is genuinely difficult to manage if you try to switch to eco power banks too early. a consistent 200w drain is nothing to sneeze at

I might be off but... A cycle last 600s at normal speed and, from what I can remember, an ecopowerbank recharge takes 100s. Shouldn't a single charger be able to make 6 ecopower bank per cycle?

How did you end up with 200w?

[Shintai]

They do use 200W constantly. You can see this under the bionics info. This translates into half a cycle on a hamster wheel. Besides this you practically only need oxygen, polluted or not. Canned or not. Benefit with oxygen is you can feed them polluted oxygen with no downsides as yucky lungs have no penalty in this case as polluted oxygen tends to be unlimited. Or you can feed them via a SPOM with very high temperatures, as it does not matter since they do not have to walk around in it or spread around your base to add heating elsewhere. So 30C or 500C oxygen does not seem to matter. They are very efficient heat deleters.

[mliyaa]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

I think the system as it stands now correctly punishes you for switching to eco power banks too early, and being too afraid to run through some of your metal supply in exchange for running bionic duplicants. I have performed the early game of a rad ocean moonlet start, and bionic duplicants presented a fair, but clearly surmountable challenge in their metal consumption, and this is a start that provides only the bare minimum.

I find the opposite, the system heavily punishes you to use metal power banks in the base game where you dont have access to uranium, you will constantly be rushing to mine every available starter ore before you die of the death loop of not having enough metal for power. The system rewards having sustainable access to power and charging eco power banks. You only need 1-2 chargers for 3 dupes. I have a self sustaining base of full bionics in the default meteor by cycle 50 where i just rush eco power banks and hatch ranching, but it required me to do alot of planning and optimising.

[Primalflower]

I appreciate your different perspective. In my experience, the manufacturing of metal power banks (especially with a bionic skilled in machinery & supply) was not enough of a time sink to cause a death spiral, and instead, going on eco power banks caused my asteroid to run almost entirely out of coal within a matter of a few dozen cycles, necessitating crude oil cracking far earlier than I wished, which caused enormous mess and instead, this caused the colony to enter an untenable state. this is part of what I base my statements on.

[speckle21]

On the flipside of balance and drawbacks, i'd like the bionics to have some unique, but optional, buildings to make them feel like a different culture.

Things like their own unique rec buildings like an oxygen bar or battery dispenser. It's completely optional like the other rec buildings, but adds flavor. maybe also update the paintings to include a few cyberpunk themes. 

Maybe for some of the machines, rather than interact like regular dupes, the bionics plug their brains into machine and control it that way.  It's purely cosmetic, but it would be adorable.

I'd like to feel like the bionics are like a whole new culture with their own unique way of having fun and doing things.  i'm simple minded like that. If they were just replacements for dupes but did nothing different despite all the work to learn how to operate them... i would ask what's the point. At least reward me for my efforts of learning their needs and practices by giving them unique culture and behaviors. 

[mliyaa]

6 hours ago, Primalflower said:

eco power banks caused my asteroid to run almost entirely out of coal within a matter of a few dozen cycles

Yes, it requires a sustainable form of power asap or you will run into another death spiral of power production. All-in-all either power banks are very punishing without advanced planning and optimisation.

[Cmagik]

17 hours ago, Shintai said:

They do use 200W constantly. You can see this under the bionics info. This translates into half a cycle on a hamster wheel. Besides this you practically only need oxygen, polluted or not. Canned or not. Benefit with oxygen is you can feed them polluted oxygen with no downsides as yucky lungs have no penalty in this case as polluted oxygen tends to be unlimited. Or you can feed them via a SPOM with very high temperatures, as it does not matter since they do not have to walk around in it or spread around your base to add heating elsewhere. So 30C or 500C oxygen does not seem to matter. They are very efficient heat deleters.

I've noticed this too.

Got a polluted oxygen geyser which I canned to feed to my bionic dupes. There's a small opener with filter for the 2 regular dupes in the base.

That they can gulp polluted oxygen doesn't bother me all that much altough it's one heck of an upside. It makes the stinky moonlet very easy to manage with for only downside to have liquid everywhere.

However the heat deletion part shouldn't remain in my opinion. This should be adressed.

12 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I appreciate your different perspective. In my experience, the manufacturing of metal power banks (especially with a bionic skilled in machinery & supply) was not enough of a time sink to cause a death spiral, and instead, going on eco power banks caused my asteroid to run almost entirely out of coal within a matter of a few dozen cycles, necessitating crude oil cracking far earlier than I wished, which caused enormous mess and instead, this caused the colony to enter an untenable state. this is part of what I base my statements on.

I feel this is where their core limitation arise before mid-late game.

They are power hungry and while we could be like "but they don't eat food", food doesn't require much if any energy and is time efficient. It's also much easier to have sustainable food source compared to high energy production.

My take is that they complete biodupes quite well but having only bionic dupes brings it own plethora of challenges in the early game.
Because they can over specialize easily, I feel it's much easier to run a small crew of bionic instead of bio dupes. I need to dig? Here 20-30 digging skill dupe. I need to craft some power bank or metal, here 20-30 engineering dupe.

 

[Primalflower]

Perhaps this would be unintuitive, but if the hamster wheel is a real concern, perhaps bionics could merely use 400w whenever running on the wheel? Because i really do think 200w is fine everywhere else 

[pether]

On 12/2/2024 at 4:50 PM, mliyaa said:

What I would suggest:

1. Power banks should use either use less metals or bionic duplicates should use more power (can scale with the amount of boosters they use)
2. There should be a way to recycle used metal power banks.
3. There should be more tiers of power banks.
4. Bionic duplicants should have rooms/dock similar to standard duplicants where they go and replenish their oxygen supply and swap power banks.
5. Bionic duplicants should have more ways to increase morale such as the type of gear oil they are using.
6. I dont think gunk need more uses, instead, make slime easier to farm, maybe a bionic critter that consumes polluted water and dirt for slime. 
7. Petrol should also be available as gear oil.
8. There should more tiers of flymo, or can we upgrade the soldering station with boosters that improve flymos so we get flymos faster. Half the fun in the new pack is in flymos IMO. 
9. Flymos should be programmable, or there can be some building that programs flymos. 

Those are good suggestions.

I would add some late game booster for dupes, eg some cooling hardware so they could work in warmer places

On the topic of better batteries - perhaps enriched uranium battery? that element has now only one application, wouldn't mind seeing something more

[6Havok9]

1 hour ago, pether said:

perhaps enriched uranium battery?

I'm all for it. If the dupe gets scalding damage or becomes incapacitated it triggers a meltdown event!

[ChrisPBacon000]

8 hours ago, Primalflower said:

Perhaps this would be unintuitive, but if the hamster wheel is a real concern, perhaps bionics could merely use 400w whenever running on the wheel? Because i really do think 200w is fine everywhere else 

This is a cool idea... Power usage depends on their task?  Maybe moving or defrag is a low power mode, 100 W.  Construction, digging, fabrication (anything with a yellow progress bar) ramps power consumption to 200 W.

 

Then power generation (manual generator) and possibly other tasks temporarily impose a high load debuff causing power usage to go to 400 W. 

 

Now average usage goes down if bionics are travelling or low activity, power usage is moderate if they're busy doing jobs, and it prevents endless hamster wheel runners from breaking the power balance?   

Maybe not 400 W, as that would totally remove manual gens from usefulness...  I'm just brainstorming!