Just don't use "Just don't use it"

[Jakepeng99]

Its weak and inconstructive. It mainly applys to people using them when complaining about skilltrees. Turning things off in settings is also applied here. Its annoying.

 

Its not good when people use this like a get out of jail free card, its on the lines of constructiveness as "didn't ask". Some people may choose not using something as their own solution, you may suggest it (i have seen a few good and constructive "Don't use it" suggestions) but its not your call, and certainly has no place in trying to make points.

Doesnt matter if you dont like someone finds something as too weak, strong, or boring. Dont use "don't use it" as an argument.

Just, don't use it.

[Pet Rock]

I usually hate the "just don't do it" philosophy, EXCEPT when it applies to the endgame.

A few updates ago a lot of people were complaining about the difficulty/annoyance of the post-rift content, but it should be difficult considering that there are (or at least should be) more rewards for this endeavor.

The problem that people were complaining about here is that viable solutions to counter late-game hazards were not yet added, and as people complained the devs scrambled to add them as soon as they could. As there isn't enough content for the rifts in the game to space apart the solution from the hazards, most are almost immediately diminished. Yes, the game should obviously be in a playable state, but I fear that the developers will have trouble rebalancing the late-game after it has more content without angering the community. 

I hope that difficulty will be reintroduced to post-rift hazards once viable solutions are added, and I hope that viable solutions are pushed further into the late-game so hazards are still a prominent threat.

[arubaro]

6 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

I usually hate the "just don't do it" philosophy, EXCEPT when it applies to the endgame.

A few updates ago a lot of people were complaining about the difficulty/annoyance of the post-rift content, but it should be difficult considering that there are (or at least should be) more rewards for this endeavor.

The problem that people were complaining about here is that viable solutions to counter late-game hazards were not yet added, and as people complained the devs scrambled to add them as soon as they could. As there isn't enough content for the rifts in the game to space apart the solution from the hazards, most are almost immediately diminished. Yes, the game should obviously be in a playable state, but I fear that the developers will have trouble rebalancing the late-game after it has more content without angering the community. 

I hope that difficulty will be reintroduced to post-rift hazards once viable solutions are added, and I hope that viable solutions are pushed further into the late-game so hazards are still a prominent threat.

Nothing added post rift is difficult.  Only very few players complained about having to fight 3 BS at the same time, which is a non sense. People complained about the stupid uncontrollable destruction which brings 0 challenge 

[Evelo]

Yep, been saying this for years. I hate the Celestial Portal because it drastically affects balance of characters. Things that are not nessecary are implemented because players can just swap it out with the portal. The whole issue of "swap characters" wouldn't exist if the Celestial Portal never existed or changed to have actual ramifications.

Sure I don't use it, but I still suffer from it existing.

[Maxil20]

5 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

The problem that people were complaining about here is that viable solutions to counter late-game hazards were not yet added, and as people complained the devs scrambled to add them as soon as they could.

I really don’t why people have issues with this, at least on the player side. DS has never had serious scenarios where the solution to the problem you face is not available before or not immediently available after the event has occurred. When spring starts, you have multiple rain options to choose from (eyebrella, rain hat/coat, umbrella, etc.) and you don’t need to survive until summer to get options like those.

I guess the best example would be desert goggles? Unless you go way out of your way to start the moonstorms and have astrogoggles you won’t have protection from the sandstorm effect initally, but unless your RNG is genuinely awful you will remedy that in ~1-2 days.

Heck, even SW/Hamlet does that. You can easily get snakeskin gear for hurricane/monsoon and then upgrade to a dumbrella in monsoon (or heck, find the guaranteed steamer trunk with one), and in Hamlet you can make the pith hat/stock up on basic allergy reducing items before humid/lush start respectively.

I think it would be extremely silly if they just randomly stopped doing that and left the players who play into the endgame defenseless against the pretty frequent acid rain/lunar hail experiences for months.

[Primalflower]

7 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Nothing added post rift is difficult.  Only very few players complained about having to fight 3 BS at the same time, which is a non sense. People complained about the stupid uncontrollable destruction which brings 0 challenge 

I would argue zombie bearger is a fight with extremely tight windows compared to basically anything else in the game

[SilverSpoon]

Then for the same reason just don't use "Skill issue", "This game is uncompromising survival", "supergodmode()"

[Pet Rock]

9 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Nothing added post rift is difficult.  Only very few players complained about having to fight 3 BS at the same time, which is a non sense. People complained about the stupid uncontrollable destruction which brings 0 challenge 

Uncontrollable destruction is bad yes, but I do recall hearing complaints about acid rains difficulty until it was nerved and the umbralla was introduced. I do think more (creative) hazards should be added though.

8 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

DS has never had serious scenarios where the solution to the problem you face is not available before or not immediently available after the event has occurred

Take food spoilage. While it is technically possible to kill bee queen very early in the game, most players will need more preparation to fight her. Meanwhile, many players will have enough resources in the endgame to combat new foes, since the necessary gear for this can be obtained before opening the rifts. There are many semi-solutions for spoilage like salt boxes and such but they do not eliminate spoilage almost entirely. More things like these should be added to the endgame. The umbralla to acid rain is what the enlightened crown is to light, but the difference in how quickly it can be obtained varies massively.

[Jakepeng99]

20 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Nothing added post rift is difficult.  Only very few players complained about having to fight 3 BS at the same time, which is a non sense. People complained about the stupid uncontrollable destruction which brings 0 challenge 

The lunar riffs i believe are fine for post game content.

 

All the shadow riff stuff i believe are better if they were not attached to riffs. Its like they are developing the caves and making them cooler, only if you beat the final boss.

[arubaro]

18 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I would argue zombie bearger is a fight with extremely tight windows compared to basically anything else in the game

Agree but nothing crazy taking into account we came from beating FW. The 3 bosses are fine, i enjoy them (they are a little scripted, specially deerclops but is unique)

6 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

Uncontrollable destruction is bad yes, but I do recall hearing complaints about acid rains difficulty until it was nerved and the umbralla was introduced. I do think more (creative) hazards should be added though.

Oh, right. Now is something ignorable like the lunar hail... i do think they should improve the current hazzards

[Dingle]

36 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Yep, been saying this for years. I hate the Celestial Portal because it drastically affects balance of characters. Things that are not nessecary are implemented because players can just swap it out with the portal. The whole issue of "swap characters" wouldn't exist if the Celestial Portal never existed or changed to have actual ramifications.

Sure I don't use it, but I still suffer from it existing.

I figure its part of the design now, like it or not. I'm gleaning this from how it makes sense to have a skill tree you use before rifts, and then use the portal to change to a new "end game build" for when you actually get the rifts open and your relevant perks become functional.

[Evelo]

Just now, Dingle said:

I'm gleaning this from how it makes sense to have a skill tree you use before rifts, and then use the portal to change to a new "end game build" for when you actually get the rifts open and your relevant perks become functional.

Yep and that's a part of the suffering from it existing I mean. It is eliminating actual decision making and planning because you can just change it out whenever. I agree it is just part of it now and it peeves me off but is what it is, much to my dismay.

[Kevinnator]

42 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Yep, been saying this for years. I hate the Celestial Portal because it drastically affects balance of characters. Things that are not nessecary are implemented because players can just swap it out with the portal. The whole issue of "swap characters" wouldn't exist if the Celestial Portal never existed or changed to have actual ramifications.

Sure I don't use it, but I still suffer from it existing.

I personally always found the complaints about the Celestial Portal weird and where the "just don't use it" argument kinda feels valid. It's a choice to use it or not.
If it didn't exist, what would really change for pc players? People who want character swapping are either gonna get a mod or use console commands, both of these ways are gonna make this completely free and don't require you to at least play in the world for a while ('cus you gotta wait 'till you have the celestial orb and enough moon rocks).
Meanwhile console players do not get this choice and are basically screwed, "oh, you don't like your character choice? Well too bad, make a completely new save just because some people complained about having the choice". Even classic DS allowed character switching on the same save, you had to regen a world but you kept all your stuff and prototyped things and you could simply have your main base be on a world you never regen.

I do prefer to stay the same character throughout a save and many generally play that way. But if I were to megabase in this game, I think I'd character switch often just so I could do certain things more quickly and conveniently.

[Maxil20]

27 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

Take food spoilage. While it is technically possible to kill bee queen very early in the game, most players will need more preparation to fight her. Meanwhile, many players will have enough resources in the endgame to combat new foes, since the necessary gear for this can be obtained before opening the rifts. There are many semi-solutions for spoilage like salt boxes and such but they do not eliminate spoilage almost entirely. More things like these should be added to the endgame. The umbralla to acid rain is what the enlightened crown is to light, but the difference in how quickly it can be obtained varies massively.

I would argue that mechanics like food spoilage/light and acid rain are two very different things. Things like food spoilage revolve around the entire game. Even once you have bundles, you are probably not going to wrap every single food item you have and keep it free from spoilage, and even taking them out of the wrap is going to impact them somewhat. It’s something that’s especially relevant throughout a playthrough, even in the endgame.

Acid rain, by comparison, is an event that is exclusive to the caves and is post rift. The effects you get from it should not be something that is overwhelming/punishing but should still be something you do have to adjust to, and I feel it does do a good job at that. The umbralla is available as a “solid” solution earlier because acid rain is not as shifting as something like spoilage/light which are mechanics introduced the moment you enter the game and stay with you throughout, but still should be something you want as traditional solutions like normal rain gear fare very poorly in acid rain.

I did clarify in particular when I meant by players as I do feel it is unfortunate one of the cooler things about acid rain (the way it warps various mobs) gets completely negated while under the umbralla “cone”. I would love if mobs who are impacted by acid rain kept the infusion effects within the radius, as I think there’s a lot of neat ones that sadly don’t see as much of an effect as the umbralla negates the infusion state entirely. 

[NotGabriel]

1 hour ago, Pet Rock said:

I usually hate the "just don't do it" philosophy, EXCEPT when it applies to the endgame.

A few updates ago a lot of people were complaining about the difficulty/annoyance of the post-rift content, but it should be difficult considering that there are (or at least should be) more rewards for this endeavor.

The problem that people were complaining about here is that viable solutions to counter late-game hazards were not yet added, and as people complained the devs scrambled to add them as soon as they could. As there isn't enough content for the rifts in the game to space apart the solution from the hazards, most are almost immediately diminished. Yes, the game should obviously be in a playable state, but I fear that the developers will have trouble rebalancing the late-game after it has more content without angering the community. 

I hope that difficulty will be reintroduced to post-rift hazards once viable solutions are added, and I hope that viable solutions are pushed further into the late-game so hazards are still a prominent threat.

I agree that this is a valid time to say it because the game itself literally gives you a yes or no choice on the matter lol

[Kevinnator]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Its weak and inconstructive. It mainly applys to people using them when complaining about skilltrees. Turning things off in settings is also applied here. Its annoying.

If I may. I think it's just an indirect way of people saying "just let people have the option to have it the way it is".

[Dingle]

Next topic: Just don't use "Just don't use "Just don't use it""

1 minute ago, Kevinnator said:

If I may. I think it's just an indirect way of people saying "just let people have the option to have it the way it is".

 

[Jakepeng99]

25 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

"Just don't use excuses to make off-topic threads" would be the ultimate topic.

Its on topic.

[Jakepeng99]

7 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Lying to yourself isn't against the rules, so you're at least allowed to stay for that reason. 

Same thing can't be said for some of the other topics people have made. 

I made it in response to people here saying "dont use it" and i posted it here for them to see. Mainly for the skilltrees in this beta.

[Evelo]

3 hours ago, Kevinnator said:

It's a choice to use it or not.
If it didn't exist, what would really change for pc players? People who want character swapping are either gonna get a mod or use console commands, both of these ways are gonna make this completely free and don't require you to at least play in the world for a while ('cus you gotta wait 'till you have the celestial orb and enough moon rocks).

Because game developers don't balance things around mods or console commands. If players couldn't swap through legitimate means then we would probably have certain branches of skills be less useless outside of very niche scenarios (Wilson's Transmutations, Wormwood's Plant Crafting, Wigfrids faster domestication, etc) to instead have more choices that are ever lasting. I suffer from the portal existing even if I never use it because Wormwood has a branch that effectively doesn't exist which limits my available options in a skill tree, which are designed for player choice. But that is just the portal, there are other many examples that aren't tied to the "just don't use it" argument that doesn't truly work which is the point of this post.