Please redo Wendy's skill, it's so different from Willow

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Every character was given an option to deal with planar entities in some form  in their skill trees.  And yet wendy doesn't really have that in this skilltree

She can turn abigail into a gestalt.

Also i hope they dont add the planar defence that mobs get, because it would make her too tanky pre riff and powercreep everything again.

[WenericMember]

10 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

She can turn abigail into a gestalt.

Also i hope they dont add the planar defence that mobs get, because it would make her too tanky pre riff and powercreep everything again.

It shouldn't be only on an alignment skill though, or at lest should be on both alignment skills, because as it stands Shadow alignment on Wendy is worthless in comparison.

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

It shouldn't be only on an alignment skill though,

I believe it should. 

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I believe it should. 

Except that skill is also the only way to deal with Bosses with large AOE, which is Wendy's main struggle in combat. On top of that, the choice is between "more AOE" and "Actually interesting & useful perk" It's by far the most one sided alignment we've had.

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Every character was given an option to deal with planar entities in some form  in their skill trees.  And yet wendy doesn't really have that in this skilltree

Tbh, the planar perks, except for moose hit, are unnecessary with how powerful are already planar weapons against planar enemies with such low health

Abigail got a gestal form, doesn't it deal planar damage?

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Except that skill is also the only way to deal with Bosses with large AOE, which is Wendy's main struggle in combat. On top of that, the choice is between "more AOE" and "Actually interesting & useful perk" It's by far the most one sided alignment we've had.

And her only true downside.  I think is more than fine,  her downside is one of the ones with less presence in the entire character pool

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, arubaro said:

And her only true downside.  I think is more than fine,  her downside is one of the ones with less presence in the entire character pool

I disagree that's her only downside. She also has a complete lack of utility compared to other survivors.

Compare her to Willow, a survivor with a similar Summon:

• Fuel Efficiency
• Controlled Burn
• Fireball
• Mini Suns
• Easily Refuellable Lighter
• Fire Damage immunity
• Overheating Resistance
• Sanity from Fires
• Ability to absorb fires

Meanwhile, Wendy's utility is:

• Sanity drain reduction
• Vengeful ghost (fun, but not useful)
• Dark petals (literally only usable by other survivors for NF, which can be sourced easily elsewhere)

I also don't want a skill that trivializes that weakness. I want a skill that properly smooths out the learning curve from depending on Abigail to facetank, to learning to Kite With Abigail, as it currently makes Wendy the most awkward character in the game to learn.

[DVGMedia]

45 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Abigail got a gestal form, doesn't it deal planar damage?

No its only base damage so all those late game entities still tank her hits. since they tank better agaisnt high damage hits.
Abigail only gets 5 planar and 5 defense  from the buff and the elixier. and those are player planars

vs things that do 400 damage against mobs... thats nothing

the shadow burst does 75 damage and 20 of that is planar.  Thats about it for planar damage

[Jakepeng99]

9 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Except that skill is also the only way to deal with Bosses with large AOE, which is Wendy's main struggle in combat.

No its not. Use healing potions. Now you can move abigail around the place to heal her too.

7 hours ago, WenericMember said:

disagree that's her only downside. She also has a complete lack of utility compared to other survivors.

Compare her to Willow, a survivor with a similar Summon:

• Fuel Efficiency
• Controlled Burn
• Fireball
• Mini Suns
• Easily Refuellable Lighter
• Fire Damage immunity
• Overheating Resistance
• Sanity from Fires
• Ability to absorb fires

Meanwhile, Wendy's utility is:

• Sanity drain reduction
• Vengeful ghost (fun, but not useful)
• Dark petals (literally only usable by other survivors for NF, which can be sourced easily elsewhere)

Downsides are not a lack of something. Doing that would just add more powercreep.

7 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Abigail only gets 5 planar and 5 defense  from the buff and the elixier. and those are player planars

Maybe the potion or the alignment should covert some of abigails existing damage into planar too?

[DVGMedia]

8 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No its not. Use healing potions. Now you can move abigail around the place to heal her too.

Downsides are not a lack of something. Doing that would just add more powercreep.

Maybe the potion or the alignment should covert some of abigails existing damage into planar too?

well the damage  is interesting.  I feel like planar damage should follow her whole night day dusk setup.5 10 15
Thats in ghost form. While the lunar form would have its cut in half from planar and regular like the brightshade sword.

Im more just focused on her defense and entity protection.

[arubaro]

11 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I disagree that's her only downside. She also has a complete lack of utility compared to other survivors.

Compare her to Willow, a survivor with a similar Summon:

• Fuel Efficiency
• Controlled Burn
• Fireball
• Mini Suns
• Easily Refuellable Lighter
• Fire Damage immunity
• Overheating Resistance
• Sanity from Fires
• Ability to absorb fires

Meanwhile, Wendy's utility is:

• Sanity drain reduction
• Vengeful ghost (fun, but not useful)
• Dark petals (literally only usable by other survivors for NF, which can be sourced easily elsewhere)

I also don't want a skill that trivializes that weakness. I want a skill that properly smooths out the learning curve from depending on Abigail to facetank, to learning to Kite With Abigail, as it currently makes Wendy the most awkward character in the game to learn.

Great job ignoring most Wendy's perks to make it look like she doesnt have much...

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Great job ignoring most Wendy's perks to make it look like she doesnt have much...

I define utility as non combat Perks. Unless i'm forgetting something, all of her other perks are related to Abigail & Combat? Sisturn, Mourning Glory, Potions.

I suppose immunity to ghost sanity drain is something, but that's also part of sanity mechanics.

Otherwise, I could just be forgetting something.

[arubaro]

21 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I define utility as non combat Perks. Unless i'm forgetting something, all of her other perks are related to Abigail & Combat? Sisturn, Mourning Glory, Potions.

I suppose immunity to ghost sanity drain is something, but that's also part of sanity mechanics.

Otherwise, I could just be forgetting something.

But is unfair compare a combat character to one that isnt focused on combat but in mixed perks

Tell noobs and experience players with 0 skill to deal with hounds or monkeys how abigail isnt a utility 

Also abigail saves time and resources while creating farms since she can deal with the mobs farmed like bunnymen or pigs

She can protect when sailing from cookie cutters and monkeys

But anyway, you are ignoring her tombs perk which can create farms

 

Is a character that excels too much at what she was developed for while not having real downsides and no, not having dozens of utility perks isnt a downside. Because there are imba characters, doesnt mean all character should be as st@pid as them

[WenericMember]

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

But is unfair compare a combat character to one that isnt focused on combat but in mixed perks

Tell noobs and experience players with 0 skill to deal with hounds or monkeys how abigail isnt a utility 

Also abigail saves time and resources while creating farms since she can deal with the mobs farmed like bunnymen or pigs

She can protect when sailing from cookie cutters and monkeys

But anyway, you are ignoring her tombs perk which can create farms

 

Is a character that excels too much at what she was developed for while not having real downsides and no, not having dozens of utility perks isnt a downside. Because there are imba characters, doesnt mean all character should be as st@pid as them

The tombstone Perk is fair enough now its been noted for changes, but when i wrote the comparison it quite literally cost more petals to create than it produced, making it a literally useless perk at the time.

I mean that would be fair, until Willow got a metric Tonne of useful combat perks in her skill tree, making combat a pretty focal point of her kit. She can now use fire in combat without burning mob drops, has Bernie activate while sane, around 3xAbigails HP (at the time), taunt enemies without attacking them, has her AOE fire explosion, boosted damage against burning targets,  and the alignment fires which do insane damage.  Pretty much every combat point you mentioned, Bernie can accomplish too, at least to a decent extent. Keep in mind my post was comparing directly to willow, not all survivors.

Cookie cutters is fair enough, though I would still technically consider that combat.

I didn't mention their combat because I personally believe that it's something they were mostly equal at when I made the original post.

She does have a real downside - if you can't keep Abi alive in combat her damage is greatly reduced. The downside can be circumvented, but it requires skill and planning to do so, which in my opinion isn't a bad thing.

Lack of utility isn't formally a "downside," but certainly makes her less appealing in comparison to other characters, thankfully she'll have haunt soon, which is a major step forward.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

boosted damage against burning targets

This feels mostly useless between enemies that are immune to fire and mobs who panic to fire making you lose a lot of dps.

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Pretty much every combat point you mentioned, Bernie can accomplish too, at least to a decent extent.

Against hordes bernie mostly gets destroyed unless you go for burning bernie which requires you to sacrifice the alignment spells and most of her fire skills in general. Hordes also being a large part of the games threats means that Abigail ends up getting a lot more combat mileage and speeds up gameplay significantly and can even farm food while you're afk.

In terms of damage output she's also outright superior to bernie while not needing a sewing kit if she dies the thing to remember is Abigail is dps based while Bernie is tank based.

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Lack of utility isn't formally a "downside," but certainly makes her less appealing in comparison to other characters, thankfully she'll have haunt soon, which is a major step forward.

This isn't true because her combat utility ends up making her the most appealing of the characters as it has a significantly higher impact over the course of the game.

[arubaro]

17 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

The tombstone Perk is fair enough now its been noted for changes, but before it quite literally cost more petals to create than it produced, making it a literally useless perk at the time.

I mean that would be fair, until Willow got a metric Tonne of useful combat perks in her skill tree, making combat a pretty focal point of her kit. She can now use fire in combat without burning mob drops, has Bernie activate while sane, taunt enemies without attacking them, has her AOE fire explosion, boosted damage against burning targets,  and the alignment fires which do insane damage.  Pretty much every combat point you mentioned, Bernie can accomplish too, at least to a decent extent. Keep in mind my post was comparing directly to willow, not all survivors.

Cookie cutters is fair enough, though I would still technically consider that combat.

I didn't mention their combat because I personally believe that it's something they were mostly equal at when I made the original post.

She does have a real downside - if you can't keep Abi alive in combat her damage is greatly reduced. The downside can be circumvented, but it requires skill and planning to do so, which in my opinion isn't a bad thing.

Lack of utility isn't formally a "downside," but certainly makes her less appealing in comparison to other characters, thankfully she'll have haunt soon, which is a major step forward.

But again, she has utility, mainly, in the form of combat. Isnt fair to ignore her whole point.

About the tombs, i didnt tested them but they summon ghosts that you can use for farms or bosses

Her downside is simply a -25% damage against shadow crestures and when abi dies (which now is way harder to happend). She has less sanity lose from auras and can be increased via skill tree. You can use a beef to ignore that downside and planar weapons reduce even more that downside since doesnt affect planar damage

Willow is so imba

[WenericMember]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This feels mostly useless between enemies that are immune to fire and mobs who panic to fire making you lose a lot of dps.

Against hordes bernie mostly gets destroyed unless you go for burning bernie which requires you to sacrifice the alignment spells and most of her fire skills in general. Hordes also being a large part of the games threats means that Abigail ends up getting a lot more combat mileage and speeds up gameplay significantly and can even farm food while you're afk.

In terms of damage output she's also outright superior to bernie while not needing a sewing kit if she dies the thing to remember is Abigail is dps based while Bernie is tank based.

This isn't true because her combat utility ends up making her the most appealing of the characters as it has a significantly higher impact over the course of the game.

Tbh I was just disputing the fact that Willow wasn't a "combat character", regardless of its viability, its a perk designed for combat.

Counterpoint: Lunar fire raiser.

Bernie & Abigail are roughly even to me. Bernie has more HP, and can be instantly regenned, while Abigail has better damage, but doesn't have a good way to Regen HP quickly after dying.

It works as a core for her character yes, but she could still use more gameplay variety imo.

6 minutes ago, arubaro said:

But again, she has utility, mainly, in the form of combat. Isnt fair to ignore her whole point.

About the tombs, i didnt tested them but they summon ghosts that you can use for farms or bosses

Her downside is simply a -25% damage against shadow crestures and when abi dies (which now is way harder to happend). She has less sanity lose from auras and can be increased via skill tree. You can use a beef to ignore that downside and planar weapons reduce even more that downside since doesnt affect planar damage

Willow is so imba

I already mentioned sanity as one of her few utility perks, and caring for a beefalo is not a free task in a survival world.

I think the rest is mostly semantics.

I made the original post before Wendy got a bunch of buffs to survivability in the latest dev update. And whether Willow is a combat character with a lot of utility or a utility character with good combat is kinda arbitrary.

Either way this conversation is kinda pointless now Wendy has access to Haunt, which was the main thing I was pushing for.

Edit: Won't be able to continue this conversation, but I'm not saying Wendy's completely blown out of the water, just that I think it would be fine to improve this one specific asepct.