From Beyond has a really weird tempo

[WenericMember]

Nearly 2 years ago at this point, from beyond began, and since then, things have gotten... weird. In the From Beyond - Taking Root & Ten Years of don't starve forum post, we were given this description:

Quote

This content is part of a 3 part set of content updates in the "From Beyond" arc and is available today on Steam, PlayStation and Xbox. Nintendo Switch will be coming soon, it takes a little longer there. 

Presumably, the initial plan was for a dedicated shadow, dedicated lunar, and something yet unknown. Now, nearly 2 years of content updates later and we're no closer to revealing what the third part of From Beyond is meant to be. So far, we've had 2 major content updates for each kind of rifts, with assorted features being added in QOL, such as Void Masques, Elastispacer, Acid Rain and Embalming Spritz. That raises a question though, of whether we're finally ready to move to the third part of From Beyond, or whether the rifts still need more work next year.

Personally, while shadow rifts are in a good spot thanks to a variety of threats, lunar rifts need work. The current gesalt threats are nonseasonal are limited to brightshades and vargs, which pales in comparison to the Void Masques, Icker, Mimicreeps, Fused shadlings and the multiple Inkblight types. I think most of it could be fixed in a dedicated lunar update before we move on to whatever the "third part" is.

But it's also weird how the updates don't seem to be leading anywhere. A New reign was building towards the Fuelweaver in the ruins, while Return of Them focused heavily on gathering the altars. Meanwhile, the content added in from beyond doesn't really have any loose ends...

On the whole this content arc is pretty weird.

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

But it's also weird how the updates don't seem to be leading anywhere. A New reign was building towards the Fuelweaver in the ruins, while Return of Them focused heavily on gathering the altars. Meanwhile, the content added in from beyond doesn't really have any loose ends...

On the whole this content arc is pretty weird.

I think its been like this for a while - I really get the feeling that Klei have pockets of people working on individual ideas and then tries to pull them in together when an update is scheduled, it's felt disjointed and strange for a long time now imo.

[Bumber64]

There aren't any shadow rift bosses, are there?

[WenericMember]

10 minutes ago, Uedo said:

I think its been like this for a while - I really get the feeling that Klei have pockets of people working on individual ideas and then tries to pull them in together when an update is scheduled, it's felt disjointed and strange for a long time now imo.

Kinda? It's hard to say. After ROT ended I believe we had Curse of Moon Quay and Waterlogged. Waterlogged is a standalone thing, but Curse of Moon Quay had the unnatural portal, and was very clearly shown to be a precursor to the rifts/from beyond in the animated short. Its really only this year where things seem to have completely stalled.

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

There aren't any shadow rift bosses, are there?

Not technically, but the shadow thralls attack in co-ordination and have a combined ~3000 hp, the same as posessed varg so I'd probably count them as a boss of some description.

[Mike23Ua]

I always felt like the End-Game for DST both for the Shadow Side and the Lunar Side would be to have new tougher mobs that can well… “change forms” so to speak, if any of you have played Trials of Mana (playable on Gamepass right now) you’ll know EXACTLY what I’m talking about…

Shape Shifter enemies that change into several different mob types in the middle of combat, forcing YOU to always expect the unexpected in the games so called “End-Game” content.

I get that there’s a “Boss” that sort of does this, Yay I uhh I guess? But It’s not the same as having these “Invaders” just bothering you in your day to day map travel.

Keep in mind this is meant to be END GAME, and I think I should heavily stress that only peaceful base sitters want absolutely nothing to do or interact with besides a few optional raid bosses at the “End-Game.”

And if Klei wants a few suggestions-

Dude you have shadows that in theory could shape shift into anything, and on the Lunar side of that same playing field…. You have the Grazer marshmellow things that could change forms to shake things up.

In my head I picture something like you’re fighting a Grazer- Boring right? We ALL know what to expect from fighting that… but then Splat it becomes a Marshmellow puddle and Reimerges back up out of the ground as one of several randomly chosen lunar Marshmellow mobs

Obviously this would require that Klei add a few new lunar and shadow mob variants, but I think it would massively shake things up in a huge and fun way if for example:

A Shadow Shifter (that’s the placeholder name I’m giving this end game mob) could leap at you as a Rictus snake and change forms into an Icker to hold you in place.

It may be far too much work for Klei to EVER do with DST, but for what it’s worth… I’m enjoying the unpredictability of the shape shifters in Trials of Mana.

That to me… would make for one hell of a fun “End-Game”

 

[PunkShark]

Now, if i recall correctly there were a lot of misinformation regarding the amount of content that FB was going to have. It was not only 3 updates as a whole as an arc but for that year specifically. Taking Root, Terrors Below and host of horrors. It was always planned to have more updates for the arc (as no arc has ever been this short before either nor would that be enough time) I think Klei just worded it a bit weirdly here hence the miscommunication. But these updates chains will take multiple years to make. And when you have a lot of things juggling around some things are gonna have to be pushed back in order to make some breathing room for other kinds of updates. Character skill trees, QoL additions to make the game play smoother or add new content like the ocean stuff, cave stuff and whatnot. And that's sadly going to slow down the general arcs. But this has been a thing since... forever. Qol updates, character reworks mixed with the schedule of update arcs has always been a thing.

There's no doubt that the first few FB updates felt a bit disjointed. But you also have to remember that we cannot see the full picture of the whole arc. Nobody could, not even during AnR's development. And we're just gonna have to trust klei to show us that their vision is something awesome they want to show us. But as anything, it takes time, and we're just gonna have to bite the sour apple and wait for the progress to keep going until we're done with the arc to give us the whole picture.

Now what could the endgame of FB be? Well, Charlie unleashing Them of course, as that's what it is been building up to since AnR. at least that's my guess.

the general vision of rifts are also far more different than what AnR and RoT set out to do. ANR was about companionship and adding challenges to a multiplayer environment while RoT was about putting us out in the sea with multiplayer aspects. The goal of FB is trying to make the game harder and more unforgiving, it's really like the old days of adding content that's just there to mess with you and your survival.

[Kacpert25]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

There aren't any shadow rift bosses, are there?

Exactly, there isn't.

Where is my Shadow Antlion?!

After all, this boss is perfect for throwing into caves so that he can be possessed by some fused shadeling.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, PunkShark said:

Now, if i recall correctly there were a lot of misinformation regarding the amount of content that FB was going to have. It was not only 3 updates as a whole as an arc but for that year specifically. Taking Root, Terrors Below and host of horrors. It was always planned to have more updates for the arc (as no arc has ever been this short before either nor would that be enough time) I think Klei just worded it a bit weirdly here hence the miscommunication. But these updates chains will take multiple years to make. And when you have a lot of things juggling around some things are gonna have to be pushed back in order to make some breathing room for other kinds of updates. Character skill trees, QoL additions to make the game play smoother or add new content like the ocean stuff, cave stuff and whatnot. And that's sadly going to slow down the general arcs. But this has been a thing since... forever. Qol updates, character reworks mixed with the schedule of update arcs has always been a thing.

There's no doubt that the first few FB updates felt a bit disjointed. But you also have to remember that we cannot see the full picture of the whole arc. Nobody could, not even during AnR's development. And we're just gonna have to trust klei to show us that their vision is something awesome they want to show us. But as anything, it takes time, and we're just gonna have to bite the sour apple and wait for the progress to keep going until we're done with the arc to give us the whole picture.

Now what could the endgame of FB be? Well, Charlie unleashing Them of course, as that's what it is been building up to since AnR. at least that's my guess.

the general vision of rifts are also far more different than what AnR and RoT set out to do. ANR was about companionship and adding challenges to a multiplayer environment while RoT was about putting us out in the sea with multiplayer aspects. The goal of FB is trying to make the game harder and more unforgiving, it's really like the old days of adding content that's just there to mess with you and your survival.

Generally agree, but I will say I think you're really understating how badly it was worded. "This content is part of a 3 part set of content updates in the "From Beyond" arc." They never specified it was restricted to the year's plans anywhere, so idk about that. And calling them a set implies a completeness at their conclusion, which really wasn't the case. 

The thing about seeing the whole picture of the arc is weird because unlike before, we can't see the edges. In Return of them, for example, the multiple celestial alters were redundant until Eye of the Storm with how easy to obtain the one on Lunar island was. I wasn't around during ANR, so I can't really comment. My problem is that we don't really have any roadmap. Are they done with dedicated rift updates and will be moving to having rifts interact more? Are we getting another year + of rift updates like Depths of Duplicity?

I think the Endgame of From Beyond is both avatars losing control of their patrons: the portals grow beyond Wagstaff's control, and Charlie is deposed as she ceases to be usable to them. It'd be cool if the ended up as unlockable survivors, A La Maxwell, but we'll have to see.

It's just been 2 years and we haven't seen the two rifts interact at all that pains me, as since Forgotten Knowledge and Axiom Vistus we've known they're directly at odds, and despite both forces gaining influence, we aren't seeing any counterplay.

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Uedo said:

I think its been like this for a while - I really get the feeling that Klei have pockets of people working on individual ideas and then tries to pull them in together when an update is scheduled, it's felt disjointed and strange for a long time now imo.

Return of them had this feeling and the saddest thing is how it ended feeling unfinished and with many stuff badly implemented like glass cutters, milk hat, moonstorms or moon mutations

[PunkShark]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

Generally agree, but I will say I think you're really understating how badly it was worded. "This content is part of a 3 part set of content updates in the "From Beyond" arc." They never specified it was restricted to the year's plans anywhere, so idk about that. And calling them a set implies a completeness at their conclusion, which really wasn't the case.

I agree the wording is incredibly misleading, and honestly i too thought at the time it was just going to be 3 content updates, i think everybody did. But i don't think that's what klei intended at all. during the roadmap they specifically mentioned 3 content updates while the rest were "core game enhancements" (skill trees and scrapbook among other things)
which fits the bill of this 3 part content updates, For that year. As that is what they had planned. And i can absolutely see why their wording on that post of their 10 year feels so wrong now. But logically at the same time, only 3 updates for an arc? That's not at all enough time to fully flesh out anything regarding their schedule. And honestly i think it was just a mistake on their part. Cause they corrected themselves later that we were going to get more From beyond Updates

 

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

The thing about seeing the whole picture of the arc is weird because unlike before, we can't see the edges. In Return of them, for example, the multiple celestial alters were redundant until Eye of the Storm with how easy to obtain the one on Lunar island was. I wasn't around during ANR, so I can't really comment. My problem is that we don't really have any roadmap. Are they done with dedicated rift updates and will be moving to having rifts interact more? Are we getting another year + of rift updates like Depths of Duplicity?

I think the Endgame of From Beyond is both avatars losing control of their patrons: the portals grow beyond Wagstaff's control, and Charlie is deposed as she ceases to be usable to them. It'd be cool if the ended up as unlockable survivors, A La Maxwell, but we'll have to see.

 

Unless you were there during those times you really couldn't see the edges until there were a built path. Most of the content updates for AnR were just content to make the multiplayer aspects more interesting, it wouldn't be until one of the last couple of updates we would be fighting the FW and the addition of the atrium would be added but anything before that were really just.. not very cohesive, at least not regarding storytelling, it was about Charlie's reign changing the world while the survivors got new companionship additions and not so much about plot until the very end. it wouldn't be until RoT where plot began to really mean something in the arc. But most of the content wasn't about plot, it was expanding a new area in the world and once again, it would only really begin to show off what the arc was about at the very end. While most of the content updates were about expanding the ocean.

and i think this is about the same happening here. the first couple of updates is the footing for mechanics like the rifts, and klei will expand on these features until they feel like there's enough to fully get into the nitty gritty lore as always. But we've practically only in the halfway mark. As previously stated, the point of From Beyond is to make the game more difficult in a lot of aspects including new seasonal dangers among other things. That means shadow rifts (caves) and lunar rifts (surface) to put a new spin on things, and who knows maybe when we get to the end there will be mechanics that let both appear in caves and surface but that is not the point of this arc. And that being the idea of the arc, makes it a lot more simple unlike AnR and RoT.

But klei can only work so fast as they do, and there are other content updates to do as well other than the arc stuff. So yes, it will take multiple years. and yes, it sucks have to wait for that long, but there really isn't much we can do about it, nor can klei do anything about it. They want to make all the fans happy, some are more excited for skill trees, some are more excited for QoL updates, and those shouldn't also be put on the backburner just so we can rush through the arc. Cause it's about making everyone satisfied and giving everyone a piece of the cake y'see? We'll get more From Beyond Content, and if waiting is a problem, then taking a break from the game is okay too. It won't leave anytime soon.

[Uedo]

3 hours ago, PunkShark said:

Unless you were there during those times you really couldn't see the edges until there were a built path. Most of the content updates for AnR were just content to make the multiplayer aspects more interesting, it wouldn't be until one of the last couple of updates we would be fighting the FW and the addition of the atrium would be added but anything before that were really just.. not very cohesive, at least not regarding storytelling, it was about Charlie's reign changing the world while the survivors got new companionship additions and not so much about plot until the very end. it wouldn't be until RoT where plot began to really mean something in the arc. But most of the content wasn't about plot, it was expanding a new area in the world and once again, it would only really begin to show off what the arc was about at the very end. While most of the content updates were about expanding the ocean.

and i think this is about the same happening here. the first couple of updates is the footing for mechanics like the rifts, and klei will expand on these features until they feel like there's enough to fully get into the nitty gritty lore as always. But we've practically only in the halfway mark. As previously stated, the point of From Beyond is to make the game more difficult in a lot of aspects including new seasonal dangers among other things. That means shadow rifts (caves) and lunar rifts (surface) to put a new spin on things, and who knows maybe when we get to the end there will be mechanics that let both appear in caves and surface but that is not the point of this arc. And that being the idea of the arc, makes it a lot more simple unlike AnR and RoT.

But klei can only work so fast as they do, and there are other content updates to do as well other than the arc stuff. So yes, it will take multiple years. and yes, it sucks have to wait for that long, but there really isn't much we can do about it, nor can klei do anything about it. They want to make all the fans happy, some are more excited for skill trees, some are more excited for QoL updates, and those shouldn't also be put on the backburner just so we can rush through the arc. Cause it's about making everyone satisfied and giving everyone a piece of the cake y'see? We'll get more From Beyond Content, and if waiting is a problem, then taking a break from the game is okay too. It won't leave anytime soon.

I completely share you feelings on this, I think we're in total agreement. My only hesitation is that this will be the 4th (purely off the top of my head, so forgive me if i'm wrong) time where the 'vision' of the content has been unrealised until the end of the arc - each time though it's just left with incomplete things or things, seemingly, added as a promise to expand upon and then it doesn't happen at all, or finally does get slightly expanded upon within the next arc. 

I just feel the messaging should be clearer, it'll avoid disappointment and not promise to over-deliver. Every time new content comes out, it feels awkward to raise concerns because you can quite clearly see Klei put in a lot of work, and it's good work at that, and they should be really pleased, but it's never finished and sometimes feels so out-of-place. If the expectation going forward are these random design elements group together - that's fine, but there is no need to promise things that aren't going to come to light for a while. It's setting yourself up for scrutiny. 

[PunkShark]

13 minutes ago, Uedo said:

I completely share you feelings on this, I think we're in total agreement. My only hesitation is that this will be the 4th (purely off the top of my head, so forgive me if i'm wrong) time where the 'vision' of the content has been unrealised until the end of the arc - each time though it's just left with incomplete things or things, seemingly, added as a promise to expand upon and then it doesn't happen at all, or finally does get slightly expanded upon within the next arc. 

I just feel the messaging should be clearer, it'll avoid disappointment and not promise to over-deliver. Every time new content comes out, it feels awkward to raise concerns because you can quite clearly see Klei put in a lot of work, and it's good work at that, and they should be really pleased, but it's never finished and sometimes feels so out-of-place. If the expectation going forward are these random design elements group together - that's fine, but there is no need to promise things that aren't going to come to light for a while. It's setting yourself up for scrutiny. 

I agree over the years they might've overpromised things. but i won't say it's that much. the only thing that really comes to mind for me is the ocean and the end of RoT. The ocean was a concept so vast that it required multiple updates after the arc had finished, but i also think a lot of the ocean content were misguided self-expectations due to previous knowledge of SW, which RoT was not trying to be. And i think a lot of those expectations came from that and being disappointed it didn't add more islands and whatnot, considering the amount of critisicm i've seen over the years regarding the ocean. Thus why people were quite meh about the whole thing, especially at the end, with no real conclusion to the arc either. No puzzle or anything which left a bit of a bitter taste. Although i can't really recall anything bad that ANR did or if people had more expectations for it? It was still quite early into the life of DST so i suppose people's expectations weren't as high as they are now.

But what is finished really, to our standards at least. There are still folks who think klei abandoned DS even though it is finished. There are still people who want more cave content or ocean content even though it is technically "finished", at least for the time being. Do we get a say when Klei should stop updating or keep updating the ocean as we demand it? I don't think so, but they will keep that in mind that it is something that the community wants and they can think about that for the future of the game. When RoT ended, the ocean was finished. Could you argue they could've added more? absolutely, but that's what the future is about as well. You can always expand upon the concept later

And when it comes to Klei's wording of things, they like to be.. vague about their plans cause they don't like spoiling things for us and making us excited for the future. I do think they should be careful what they say because it can be misinformed incredibly easily or taken out of context. I think the biggest arguement for this is the skill trees or as they were mentioned in the roadmap last year "Core game enhancements" which is incredibly vague and open for intepretation for such a feature that for the most part was just about the scrapbook and skill trees.

My mind must be getting fuzzy though as a lot of things happen every year, would you be able to refresh my memory of what is considered incomplete?

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, PunkShark said:

I agree over the years they might've overpromised things. but i won't say it's that much. the only thing that really comes to mind for me is the ocean and the end of RoT. The ocean was a concept so vast that it required multiple updates after the arc had finished, but i also think a lot of the ocean content were misguided self-expectations due to previous knowledge of SW, which RoT was not trying to be. And i think a lot of those expectations came from that and being disappointed it didn't add more islands and whatnot, considering the amount of critisicm i've seen over the years regarding the ocean. Thus why people were quite meh about the whole thing, especially at the end, with no real conclusion to the arc either. No puzzle or anything which left a bit of a bitter taste. Although i can't really recall anything bad that ANR did or if people had more expectations for it? It was still quite early into the life of DST so i suppose people's expectations weren't as high as they are now.

But what is finished really, to our standards at least. There are still folks who think klei abandoned DS even though it is finished. There are still people who want more cave content or ocean content even though it is technically "finished", at least for the time being. Do we get a say when Klei should stop updating or keep updating the ocean as we demand it? I don't think so, but they will keep that in mind that it is something that the community wants and they can think about that for the future of the game. When RoT ended, the ocean was finished. Could you argue they could've added more? absolutely, but that's what the future is about as well. You can always expand upon the concept later

And when it comes to Klei's wording of things, they like to be.. vague about their plans cause they don't like spoiling things for us and making us excited for the future. I do think they should be careful what they say because it can be misinformed incredibly easily or taken out of context. I think the biggest arguement for this is the skill trees or as they were mentioned in the roadmap last year "Core game enhancements" which is incredibly vague and open for intepretation for such a feature that for the most part was just about the scrapbook and skill trees.

My mind must be getting fuzzy though as a lot of things happen every year, would you be able to refresh my memory of what is considered incomplete?

I think I gave enough context to understand what i'd be meaning by finished. For the avoidance of doubt though, I mean it in the traditional sense.
 

1.

(of a task or activity) brought to an end; completed.

Regarding examples of what is incomplete, I don't really have the want to go through a timeline or anything and I can't really think off of the top of my head as many examples. One that comes pretty quickly though, is the abandonment of the portal-hoping (ancient gateway) and the lack of resolution around the ancient gateway.  
Another popular one would be the character refreshes, we can certainty say they're good or bad from the framing of our own perspective, but having this many character refreshes over such a long time would give you an idea of things being incomplete. We can design a game around the concept that we're not going to continuously scrap older mechanics - my point being lots of things get reworked or let to the way-side, it's fiiiiiiine in principal but at some point you do start to wonder if dev resources and time are being used effectively.

[AveHortor]

Personally, I am contempt with all of the Shadow Rift content that has been released even if it were to never get an update again.

However, I still think Lunar Rift content does not justify the trade off of dealing with BS running rampant. It is such a hindrance dealing with consecutive waves of BS blocking my crops, my grass, my saplings, and a good chunk of all plants.

I have never turned on Lunar Rifts solo, and I feel that I would continue to avoid doing that until the end game gets a little more bearable.

 

Spoiler

 

[BalkanCockroach]

19 minutes ago, AveHortor said:

BS running rampant.

 

 

20 minutes ago, AveHortor said:

It is such a hindrance dealing with consecutive waves of BS.

 BS are total BS

[AveHortor]

20 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

 

 BS are total BS

I didn't want to say it, but real.

[Danila6300]

The developers will continue to release updates to the Rift.