ancient fuelweaver rework is too hard

[grm9]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

DST is an inherently hard game due to its game mechanics. A noob playing willow and has hacked unlocked affinities, isn't going to be better at killing bee queen because willow's lunar flame is really strong against bee queen. Strong character perks require skilled players, who have mastered the basics, to take advantage of them

you don't need skill for killing BQ with it, you can use it for slightly decreasing cost or length of the fight but don't need it

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Its very easy to miss a new moon. People might quit out of their session before the next new moon and forget when they pick up DST again. It's not very intuitive

that's just a memory issue that's entirely unrelated to intuitiveness

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

How would a nerf hurt people learning the fight? If the fight is easier, it's easier to learn

they'd get disappointed because of it being too forgiving and letting them do the fight with out learning it

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I don't need the loot, i need the fight to be less tedious so it's more fun and I don't have to resort to cheese. Resorting to cheese or exploits shouldn't be the standard we set for klei

most people that ever did it already consider it as fun

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

well what can i do with the other final boss being disappointing, i'd want CC to require prediction instead of simply reaction too, also it's not like predicting cd's extremely complicated, if you're just kiting the boss in place he does bone cage after every 3 melee attacks iirc, 2 if you've lured him from an arena edge to another close edge

That's a personal wish and not the experience found in any other part of the game. The game doesn't prepare you for this mechanic, and you shouldn't be expected to learn it during AFW on top of everything else.

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

not really, you can get like 30-40 marble from just werepig's pillars (don't even need to fight him for mining the marble off of them), the guaranteed shadow pieces set piece and practically any other marble set piece in the world since it's likely to get spawned, that's already 3 marble armors with out green amulet or 6 with, assuming that you don't grow any marble

You would've already gone through several marble armors before reaching AFW if you were playing in that manner. Your premise is someone who wouldn't learn to do things "properly" without bone cage.

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

portal requires 23 moon rocks and 1 purple gem, swapping to winona and back requires 2 moon rocks and 2 purple gems

I noticed this after. It's a nonissue if you were already playing as her or intending to swap for other reasons.

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

not really, the problem's that tanking might end up being more efficient in comparison with kiting if kiting'll waste enough time e.g. see how many people kite BQ

It's not resource efficient even if that works out. This is equivalent to complaining that people use pan flute on bosses. It's an option you're given if you bother to prepare adequately for that method.

It's a survival game in that aspect, not a souls-like.

[arubaro]

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they'd get disappointed because of it being too forgiving and letting them do the fight with out learning it

Funnier when you think of how forgiving is already the game at that stage of the game but never is enough when they can ask for more forgiveness...

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

That's a personal wish and not the experience found in any other part of the game. The game doesn't prepare you for this mechanic, and you shouldn't be expected to learn it during AFW on top of everything else

i don't see why shouldn't you, bosses giving you unique problems is a good thing imo, it'd be lame if bosses would've just been survival elements copy pasted onto a tree guard

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You would've already gone through several marble armors before reaching AFW if you were playing in that manner. Your premise is someone who wouldn't learn to do things properly without bone cage

not really, you can see a lot of people that normally don't tank stuff but still don't even try to dodge bone cage

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I noticed this after. It's a nonissue if you were already playing as her or intending to swap for other reasons

so if you were playing as 1 out of 18 characters or already wanting to do a specific thing that's mostly only useful for making fights easier or mega basing

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's not resource efficient even if that works out. This is equivalent to complaining that people use pan flute on bosses. It's an option you're given if you bother to prepare adequately

???

i'm not complaining and it's resource efficient if you consider time as the most important resource     

[Bumber64]

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i don't see why shouldn't you, bosses giving you unique problems is a good thing imo, it'd be lame if bosses would've just been survival elements copy pasted onto a tree guard

not really, you can see a lot of people that normally don't tank stuff but still don't even try to dodge bone cage

so if you were playing as 1 out of 18 characters or already wanting to do a specific thing that's mostly only useful for making fights easier or mega basing

???

i'm not complaining and it's resource efficient if you consider time as a resource too

AFW already has healing (different method than CK), shield, and mind control. On top of bone cage.

They don't try to dodge it because they don't know they can. That's how out of place it is.

Swapping makes certain fights easier and isn't that expensive. Certainly a better return on investment than lazy explorer.

You're complaining that AFW wouldn't be punishing enough without bone cage trapping the player. You have expressed that you don't want people tanking the boss, in the same way that some people have expressed that they don't want others pan fluting BQ or DFly.

You think you're going to save more time tanking than you invested gathering the needed supplies? You won't.

[grm9]

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You think you're going to save more time tanking than you invested gathering the needed supplies? You won't

you will in case of BQ

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You're complaining that AFW wouldn't be punishing enough without bone cage trapping the player. You have expressed that you don't want people tanking the boss, in the same way that some people have expressed that they don't want others pan fluting BQ or DFly

no, the issue's not me not wanting people to do something, but it then becoming best to just tank the boss instead of trying to deal with it's attack since most people'd rather spend 1 marble armor instead of a lazy explorer or time that you'd need to spend on learning how to dodge bone cage

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Swapping makes certain fights easier and isn't that expensive. Certainly a better return on investment than lazy explorer

no? lazy explorer only costs 2 oranges that you wouldn't use for any other thing if you were going to get a cane any way

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

They don't try to dodge it because they don't know they can. That's how out of place it is

a lot of people also know that it's a thing and that they can learn to do that but still don't do that

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

AFW already has healing (different method than CK), shield, and mind control. On top of bone cage

so what's the issue with bone cage specifically requiring you to deal with it uniquely if those aren't an issue

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

you will in case of BQ

no, the issue's not me not wanting people to do something, but it then becoming best to just tank the boss instead of trying to deal with it's attack since most people'd rather spend 1 marble armor instead of a lazy explorer or time that you'd need to spend on learning how to dodge bone cage

You clearly want them to get a lazy explorer or learn how to dodge bone cage. I also feel like you're overhyping marble armor. The slowdown is a significant detriment in a number situations. (You can't dodge deerclops and will get frozen, for example.)

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

no? lazy explorer only costs 2 oranges that you wouldn't use for any other thing if you were going to get a cane any way

It's kind of a toss up on getting cane or celestial orb, though. Upgrading the portal is just ultimately more useful than having lazy explorer.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

a lot of people also know that it's a thing and that they can learn to do that but still don't do that

That's people that know you can do DFly and BQ without walls or pan flute, I guess? Toadstool without weather pain? The question is why they would want to do that, even knowing. There's no good feedback on the range and a perceived high difficulty, regardless.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

so what's the issue with bone cage specifically requiring you to deal with it uniquely if those aren't an issue

The player is already familiar with sanity and killing minions. Shield is somewhat obvious.

Bone cage is like ewecus spit, except on a boss, with none of the ewecus methods working. (Ironically you need to run towards ewecus.) Has the player even encountered ewecus? Somewhat unlikely.

And, again, this is on top of the other AFW stuff. You're expected (or solo wasn't accounted for) to need to learn to handle bone cage in the same fight you're learning to manage intentional insanity (presuming you didn't do CC first) and hordes of minions that heal the boss.

If bone cage was a targeted attack that hit you if you stood completely still, that'd be different. What it is right now is unreasonable kiting.

[grm9]

42 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You clearly want them to get a lazy explorer or learn how to dodge bone cage

no, i don't care about that, i care about there being no reason to dodge bone cage if it'd've only dealt damage unless it'd've been like 300 or more

42 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The slowdown is a significant detriment in a number situations. (You can't dodge deerclops and will get frozen, for example.)

you can equip it on reaction before bone cage hits and unequip it after it hits

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's kind of a toss up on getting cane or celestial orb, though. Upgrading the portal is just ultimately more useful than having lazy explorer

you can make portal things on an altar on lunar and again, lazy explorer pretty much has no cost except time spent on going to ruins for making it if you were going to get a cane any way

44 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Not sure who these people are, but there's no good feedback on the range and a perceived high difficulty, regardless

then suggest adding something for indicating range instead of just making dodging it pointless?

44 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Player is already familiar with sanity and killing minions. Shield is somewhat obvious.

Bone cage is like ewecus spit, except on a boss, with none of the ewecus methods working. (Ironically you need to run towards ewecus.) Has the player even encountered ewecus? Somewhat unlikely.

And, again, this is on top of the other AFW stuff. You're expected (or solo wasn't accounted for) to need to learn to handle bone cage in the same fight you're learning to manage intentional insanity (presuming you didn't do CC first) and hordes of minions that heal the boss

that would've been rather easy with out bone cage though and again i don't see any issue with it requiring you to think about how to deal with it instead of just making you do something that you already did for dealing with a similar thing 

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

no, i don't care about that, i care about there being no reason to dodge bone cage if it'd've only dealt damage unless it'd've been like 300 or more

you can equip it on reaction before bone cage hits and unequip it after it hits

you can make portal things on an altar on lunar and again, lazy explorer pretty much has no cost except time spent on going to ruins for making it if you were going to get a cane any way

then suggest adding something for indicating range instead of just making dodging it pointless?

that would've been rather easy with out bone cage though and again i don't see any issue with it requiring you to think about how to deal with it instead of just making you do something that you already did for dealing with a similar thing 

Whereas I don't see why bone cage should have to be dodged in its current state.

That sounds like you'd just be using marble armor in the same tedious manner as lazy explorer.

Wiki says you need the full altar for crafting, which implies Pearl quest requirements. I'd bet on orb at that point. Cane is made from a 50% drop from MacTusk, or you can get lucky with AG. The portal can't be replaced by beefalo/magi, however.

That's a possible solution. I mentioned blue gem deer's effect earlier. It'd still be as obnoxious to deal with at current frequency, however. (Other options include making it a point-targeted spell, or letting you hide behind him/pillar.)

That's basically calling all other bosses easy.

[SilverSpoon]

At this point, instead of theory, wouldn't it be better to simply vote on whether AFW needs a rework or not, it's fair or not, it's too strong or not?

To be honest, no matter what people say, neither side will change their opinion. I'm too.

[grm9]

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Whereas I don't see why bone cage should have to be dodged in its current state

because that makes the fight more complex and fun

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wiki says you need the full altar for crafting, which implies Pearl quest requirements. I'd bet on orb at that point. Cane is made from a 50% drop from MacTusk, or you can get lucky with AG. The portal can't be replaced by beefalo/magi, however

you can use any altar, so you can just get the 3 pieces that're on lunar already, cane with magi's still better than beefalo when playing as some characters or when fighting unless doing that as maxwell, wendy or wes

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

That's a possible solution. I mentioned blue gem deer's effect earlier. It'd still be as obnoxious to deal with at current frequency, however. (Other options include making it a point-targeted spell, or letting you hide behind him/pillar.)

i don't see any issue with frequency, also not sure about how's gem deer's freeze puddle effect related considering that the range that you need to be out of for that thing to not get spawned under you's invisible too, i definitely wouldn't want the dodge to boil down to just walking into any direction or circling around the boss

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

That's basically calling all other bosses easy

they are excluding charge cancel AG and some moments of enraged dfly with out armor or healing   

[Szczuku]

Wow this place is a freakshow

[SilverSpoon]

10 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Wow this place is a freakshow

When Klei's community manager doesn't deal with clowns who is good at games[citation needed] but bad at communications, the community:

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

When Klei's community manager doesn't deal with clowns who is good at games[citation needed] but bad at communications, the community:

While this discussion does seem to be getting too heated unless I need to dig a bit deeper it seems this post here would be more in violation of guidelines ironically enough.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

While this discussion does seem to be getting too heated unless I need to dig a bit deeper it seems this post here would be more in violation of guidelines ironically enough.

In fact, I am one of the clowns in this circus. However at least I am a nice clown until opposite side bites me first.
If Klei's community managers banned me, also banned they too, I'll be convinced.

(to dst_lover and other people, I don't to criticize you because you're being nice and polite. I'm sorry. The clowns I'm talking about are me and only two specific people.)

[W0l0l0]

I wouldn't mind the bone cage getting a nerf but I really don't feel like it's essential. Like I said earlier, if you spam Weather Pains the fight can be pretty trivial. The difficulty to grind for them balances it out in my opinion.