ancient fuelweaver rework is too hard

[Bumber64]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

i don't because dodging it's possible, how it was designed's irrelevant, how it ended up being's all that matters now

It's possible but, again, why is failing to do so deserving of a punishment beyond a bit of damage? You aren't given adequate warning to get out of the way of a large invisible radius. Compare to blue gem deer, gestalt, or great depths worm. Debilitating attacks which are trivially avoidable, no special equipment.

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

practically free resources, much less free than lazy explorer, so a lot of people would've likely ended up using those instead of lazy explorer or learning how to dodge it if there would've been that choice

Good for them. You know another choice? Catapults. Those don't even slow your move speed to the point where you might as well be in the bone cage.

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

because that's the only way to prevent the player from completing the fight because of failing at it except just killing them and making the boss get despawned

Why should there be another fail condition besides dying? Can't leave to resupply = finite survivability. (Also, let's not pretend woven shadows go away just because you aren't caged. You do still have to handle them properly or he heals anyway.)

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

then why isn't bosses attacking a bad thing btw? practically all bosses attack more often than every 15 seconds, why isn't them attacking bad? frequency of something isn't what makes it tedious or annoying

Perhaps it's the whole not being able to move thing of the bone cage? The item swapping and use even when properly prepared to get around that? Inconvenience times effort divided by frequency.

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

it's also not like FW's attacking you and forcing you to kite at the same frame that you get trapped on, you can run away from him on reaction for getting enough time for looking through your entire inventory before he gets too close to you for you to use lazy explorer with out getting hit

Not entirely sure what's being said here. Is this regarding inventory shuffling? Sure you've got time to look for it, but that's additional conscious effort instead of relying on muscle memory to press a button. Worse case you hit the wrong button by instinct, equipping the wrong item (weather pain or amulet) and further shuffling your inventory.

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

depends on what you're using for dealing with it and how close you are to the boss, most bosses' insanity aura is either 0 or -400 per minute so usually at least like -50 per minute if not hugging them and cooked cactus or green shroom gives 15 sanity so insanity can require eating every 15 seconds

You can eat the sanity food all at once and not worry about it for a while. This could potentially waste a bit of time on shadow hands if poorly timed and you didn't bring an insanity option, but not a big deal.

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

people often tank FW when playing as maxwell for maximising dps

I guess if you're shortening the fight as a result you could consider it worth the tedium. Bone cage is mandatory, though. Eat every 15 seconds or you begin starving, no benefit.

[SilentConstruct]

As someone who enjoys the Fuelweaver fight immensely and has never used any cheese methods whilst fighting him, lureplant cheese should have never been removed.

Why do I take this stance? Because it allowed others to skip content they didn't find enjoyable, while allowing people who did enjoy the fight such as myself, to continue to enjoy it without those methods. Alternatively, as I've mentioned before in another thread: In my opinion the best solution here would be an optional world setting to adjust Fuelweaver's difficulty, with the current fight remaining as the default. I believe this would satisfy all parties involved if done correctly.

And lastly, a reminder that you can provide perfectly valid arguments without needing to resort to personal attacks or aggressive remarks. This thread got excessively heated when it didn't need to.

[00petar00]

42 minutes ago, SilentConstruct said:

As someone who enjoys the Fuelweaver fight immensely and has never used any cheese methods whilst fighting him, lureplant cheese should have never been removed.

Why do I take this stance? Because it allowed others to skip content they didn't find enjoyable, while allowing people who did enjoy the fight such as myself, to continue to enjoy it without those methods. Alternatively, as I've mentioned before in another thread: In my opinion the best solution here would be an optional world setting to adjust Fuelweaver's difficulty, with the current fight remaining as the default. I believe this would satisfy all parties involved if done correctly.

And lastly, a reminder that you can provide perfectly valid arguments without needing to resort to personal attacks or aggressive remarks. This thread got excessively heated when it didn't need to.

That is what I have been saying. Some people want it both ways, they were for removal of lureplant cheese but now are heavily involed in threads like these as soon as someone mentions FW nerf they come in droves. 

There were much less threads like these when we could easily cheese FW with lureplants and klei said that they would add this cheese back to FW but they probably decided against it because of the players that are very vocal that wanted it out of the game when it didn't affect them, some were jealous others didn't like that it was so easy for someone to cheese it but it was optional method.

So they ruined other people's fun and when boss gets nerfed it will be ruined for them, I only feel bad for players that wanted lureplant cheese to stay even though they never used it because they respect player choice and don't want FW to be nerfed which is now probably going to happen.

[Echsrick]

alright here much deserved fuelweaver nerfs

bone cage on 20 more seconds long cooldown

remove this shield thing that can only be broken by insane players

2 less insanity stunlock seconds

lower the amounts of the healers to 5 and they only heal 20

200 less hp

less nightmare pillars in atrium

 

[Gashzer]

13 hours ago, grm9 said:

???

this looks like some sort of zombified response, 3 people told you that you can do the fight with out spending weather pains or lazy explorers and you're complaining about needing to spend them, huh??? you can avoid bone cage with no teleportation and you don't need AoE for dealing with woven shadows

they're entirely possible to avoid and FW can eat only a few woven shadows after you mess up, not all of them

we had lureplant previously but it's gone now so blame klei ig

it's a reasonable fight according to like 90% of people

looks like trolling

no statistics

You have no statistics that AFW is a fun fight or reasonable for players. 

Since you can't prove that people enjoy AFW, let's rework him just incase

[Lardee]

On 11/7/2024 at 3:32 AM, vklfall said:

Dear Klei, 

I play Don't Starve Together by myself in my own world, but now I’m stuck trying to reset the ruins. I’ve tried learning strategies and even playing as Wolfgang and Wigfrid, but it’s still not working. The Ancient Fuelweaver has so many skills and keeps regenerating. Why does this boss trap me so much? I watch YouTube players, and they don’t get trapped by the skeletons like I do. I try to follow their strategies, but it doesn’t work for me.

I’m older, so my hands aren’t as quick as other players', and I don’t have anyone to team up with to take down this boss. Some top-tier players recommend trying harder, but facing this boss alone is just too much. Damn."

Let me know if you’d like any further adjustments!

If your goal is simply to beat Fuelweaver, just swap to Winona and put catapults in each of the three corners. Do this and you don't have to even think about the healers (so no weatherpains) and you'll be dealing Wolfgang DPS.

You could also swap to Woodie and do the Tree guard idol cheese.

If you're playing Wurt, you can just murk FW with enough merms.

If you're playing Wigfrid, the Elding Spear lets you basically ignore the bone cage.

There are tons of solutions to FW that allow even players who are just learning the fight to have a solid chance at success.

 

 

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

You have no statistics that AFW is a fun fight or reasonable for players

we had multiple polls here

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Since you can't prove that people enjoy AFW, let's rework him just incase

"let's spend effort for a potentially detrimental result"

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It's possible but, again, why is failing to do so deserving of a punishment beyond a bit of damage? You aren't given adequate warning to get out of the way of a large invisible radius. Compare to blue gem deer, gestalt, or great depths worm. Debilitating attacks which are trivially avoidable, no special equipment

because you're supposed to predict it, all of the enemies that you mentioned aren't final bosses so it makes sense that they don't do that, the punishment's there for people to not end up spending marble instead of lazy explorers, killing any need for looking for creative solutions for dealing with the boss because of it being best to just tank if they aren't willing to learn how to dodge

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Good for them. You know another choice? Catapults. Those don't even slow your move speed to the point where you might as well be in the bone cage

they also require 240 rocks, 25 moon rocks, 3 purple gems and a lot of time and other stuff

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Perhaps it's the whole not being able to move thing of the bone cage?

so the punishment not being ignorable?

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The item swapping and use even when properly prepared to get around that? Inconvenience times effort divided by frequency

again that's just you complaining about item swapping, you can just put all things that you're swapping to into leftmost slots for them to always stay near where they were at the start of the fight

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

You can eat the sanity food all at once and not worry about it for a while. This could potentially waste a bit of time on shadow hands if poorly timed and you didn't bring an insanity option, but not a big deal

depends on your max sanity

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I guess if you're shortening the fight as a result you could consider it worth the tedium. Bone cage is mandatory, though. Eat every 15 seconds or you begin starving, no benefit

depends on max sanity, although yes now that i think about it it's easier to deal with it in comparison with bone cage since you can eat multiple at once instead of needing to find a moment for eating 1 every 15 seconds/taking into account that you'll need to do that soon

6 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I guess if you're shortening the fight as a result you could consider it worth the tedium. Bone cage is mandatory, though. Eat every 15 seconds or you begin starving, no benefit

the benefit's getting to kill the boss, also again it being tedious's subjective

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

we had multiple polls here

There is around 25000 average DST players on steam per month. Lets be generous and say 200 people answer your polls that is 0.8% of the current live player base. So forums polls mean nothing as the sample size is next to nothing but ok...

Let's say the polls do mean something. Let's look at a screen shot of one of them:

53% want AFW unchanged and a whopping 47% want some sort of change to AFW. This isn't some sort of political election were winning by 6% is still a win. 47% is a massive minority that has a problem with AFW. This is more than enough people to warrant atleast a QOL touch up to make AFW less tedious.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

because you're supposed to predict it, all of the enemies that you mentioned aren't final bosses so it makes sense that they don't do that, the punishment's there for people to not end up spending marble instead of lazy explorers, killing any need for looking for creative solutions for dealing with the boss because of it being best to just tank if they aren't willing to learn how to dodge

they also require 240 rocks, 25 moon rocks, 3 purple gems and a lot of time and other stuff

so the punishment not being ignorable?

Since when are you supposed to predict attack cooldowns? No other boss requires this beyond basic kiting. And the other final boss is, of course, the ever-difficult... CC.

All of which can still be obtained faster than a truck load of marble, a lazy explorer, or a weather pain. (Also irrelevant cost if you started as her or wanted Warly dishes anyway.) Lazy explorer won't really help you on other bosses, and now catapults are portable. Killed shadow pieces with catapults? Just reuse those. Easy choice, but it's character-specific.

Do you just find boss attacks to be ignorable in general? Anything that doesn't stop you completely in your tracks each time you're hit?

[dst_lover]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

There is around 25000 average DST players on steam per month. Lets be generous and say 200 people answer your polls that is 0.8% of the current live player base. So forums polls mean nothing as the sample size is next to nothing but ok...

And let's say the polls do mean something. Let's look at a screen shot of one of them:

52% want AFW unchanged and a whopping 47% want some sort of change to AFW. This isn't some sort of political election were winning by 5% is still a win. 47% is a massive minority that has a problem with AFW. This is more than enough people to warrant atleast a QOL touch up to make AFW less tedious.

 

 

 

Not all people who voted for AFW to be changed went him to be less tedious or easier I went him to be harder in multiplayer and I think he is fine in solo

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, dst_lover said:

Not all people who voted for AFW to be changed went him to be less tedious or easier I went him to be harder in multiplayer and I think he is fine in solo

Well this poll is specific to having longer vulnerability windows with less players as a example so yes people did vote to make him easier. You are grasping at straws to defend AFW at this point.

[grm9]

32 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

There is around 25000 average DST players on steam per month. Lets be generous and say 200 people answer your polls that is 0.8% of the current live player base. So forums polls mean nothing as the sample size is next to nothing but ok...

Let's say the polls do mean something. Let's look at a screen shot of one of them:

53% want AFW unchanged and a whopping 47% want some sort of change to AFW. This isn't some sort of political election were winning by 6% is still a win. 47% is a massive minority that has a problem with AFW. This is more than enough people to warrant atleast a QOL touch up to make AFW less tedious

that's as good as statistics got so far and "minor adjustments" seem to mean just stuff like "make the boss get healed for slightly less hp per woven shadow" or "make him vulnerable for slightly more time after all unseen hands die" so effectively "make the boss slightly easier" and we're already getting that through skill trees with every character getting AoE and a dps boost

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Since when are you supposed to predict attack cooldowns? No other boss requires this beyond basic kiting. And the other final boss is, of course, the ever-difficult... CC

well what can i do with the other final boss being disappointing, i'd want CC to require prediction instead of simply reaction too, also it's not like predicting cd's extremely complicated, if you're just kiting the boss in place he does bone cage after every 3 melee attacks iirc, 2 if you've lured him from an arena edge to another close edge

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

All of which can still be obtained faster than a truck load of marble, a lazy explorer, or a weather pain. Lazy explorer won't really help you on other bosses, and now catapults are portable. Killed shadow pieces with catapults? Just reuse those. Easy choice, but it's character-specific

not really, you can get like 30-40 marble from just werepig's pillars (don't even need to fight him for mining the marble off of them), the guaranteed shadow pieces set piece and practically any other marble set piece in the world since it's likely to get spawned, that's already 3 marble armors with out green amulet or 6 with, assuming that you don't grow any marble

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Edit: Actually, what is this list of materials? I don't see a use for moon rocks anywhere. There's one for an idol if you needed to swap first

portal requires 23 moon rocks and 1 purple gem, swapping to winona and back requires 2 moon rocks and 2 purple gems

31 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Do you just find boss attacks to be ignorable in general? Anything that doesn't stop you completely in your tracks each time you're hit?

not really, the problem's that tanking might end up being more efficient in comparison with kiting if kiting'll waste enough time e.g. see how many people kite BQ

[dst_lover]

33 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well this poll is specific to having longer vulnerability windows with less players as a example so yes people did vote to make him easier. You are grasping at straws to defend AFW at this point.

Don’t make things up in the poll they said it’s mostly fine but could (use minor adjustments) or ( having longer vulnerability window the one who made the post make it so all people who went any type of change have to vote in the same area 

[Gashzer]

55 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's as good as statistics got so far and "minor adjustments" seem to mean just stuff like "make the boss get healed for slightly less hp per woven shadow" or "make him vulnerable for slightly more time after all unseen hands die" so effectively "make the boss slightly easier" and we're already getting that through skill trees with every character getting AoE and a dps boost

Bad polls are worse to quote that having no polls at all. Its straight up misinformation quoting any AFW polls on the forums as sample size isn't big enough to matter. You should stop trying to bring in misleading statistics and just accept that arguing using opinions is the way to go on the forums.

Boss balance should be made using Wilson who has minimum dps boosts and no AOE attacks as the standard. 

All I want are minor adjustments, if AFW didn't spawn more woven shadows until the current wave of shadow hands was killed this would allow you time to kill woven shadows, then that gives you time to heal/organize/think about how to tackle his shadow hands.

We are in agreement that minor adjustments to AFW would help out 47% of the community (nearly half) 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Boss balance should be made using Wilson who has minimum dps boosts and no AOE attacks as the standard

why should it be done around criterias that apply to only 2 out of 18 characters

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

All I want are minor adjustments, if AFW didn't spawn more woven shadows until the current wave of shadow hands was killed this would allow you time to kill woven shadows, then that gives you time to heal/organize/think about how to tackle his shadow hands

that's not minor i think

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Bad polls are worse to quote that having no polls at all. Its straight up misinformation quoting any AFW polls on the forums as sample size isn't big enough to matter. You should stop trying to bring in misleading statistics and just accept that arguing using opinions is the way to go on the forums

in that scenario we should just delete forums because arguing about an opinion's nearly pointless since that usually boils down to just what does some one consider as fun

[dst_lover]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

in that scenario we should just delete forums because arguing about an opinion's nearly pointless since that usually boils down to just what does some one consider as fun

؟but this is the point every person opinions and arguments is just to explain why he love or find this fun or not when somebody hate a boss or an item or a character he explains and give his opinion so other people can see why he hate this thing and Keli when they see his reasoning they try to fix it by knowing his reasoning of his opinion and fixing his problem the same goes for when people express their love of items or a boss or a character  they can help the Keli and the designers to know what the reasons people find some thing enjoyable it’s important to everyone to express his feelings and opinions and explain it to Keli and everyone 

[Gashzer]

23 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why should it be done around criterias that apply to only 2 out of 18 characters

that's not minor i think

in that scenario we should just delete forums because arguing about an opinion's nearly pointless since that usually boils down to just what does some one consider as fun

Klei mentioned they wanted to make new lunar bosses doable with default movement speed, I wonder why that's the case when so many characters have speed boosts now? Almost like it's a good idea to have a base reference point (this case wilson) to balance bosses around then you can treat character specific perks as combat bonuses that are nice but not required to kill the boss.

It is minor, as pros wont feel much difference between what AFW is now and after but it will help more newer players to the fight. 

There is no way to have proper polls on the forums so why even try to mislead klei with false information? And forums users tend to be alot more experienced than the average Joe so polls are already setup to fail with a bias sample group.

I know this is hard to hear grm9 but DST should not be balanced around the opinions of veteran players who have 10000hrs experience and are great at the game, it should be balanced around whats best for the average DST player.

 

[grm9]

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei mentioned they wanted to make new lunar bosses doable with default movement speed, I wonder why that's the case when so many characters have speed boosts now? Almost like it's a good idea to have a base reference point (this case wilson) to balance bosses around then you can treat character specific perks as combat bonuses that are nice but not required to kill the boss

only 3 characters have speed boosts and all of them have a cost for activating them, either way it'd be absurd to not take characters getting stronger into account for making bosses since then fighting as all characters except 2'll end up being too easy

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

It is minor, as pros wont feel much difference between what AFW is now and after but it will help more newer players to the fight

exactly, it might end up being disappointing for people that'll only be learning to do it because of the boss being much more forgiving and dying even after you do disappointingly badly

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

There is no way to have proper polls on the forums so why even try to mislead klei with false information? And forums users tend to be alot more experienced than the average Joe so polls are already setup to fail with a bias sample group

klei themselves use forums for seeing what do people like or not like so i don't see any issue with using polls from them and most people on the forums suck at the game

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I know this is hard to hear grm9 but DST should not be balanced around the opinions of veteran players who have 10000hrs experience and are great at the game, it should be balanced around whats best for the average DST player

a lot of people that aren't good at the game still like FW

[Gashzer]

39 minutes ago, grm9 said:

only 3 characters have speed boosts and all of them have a cost for activating them, either way it'd be absurd to not take characters getting stronger into account for making bosses since then fighting as all characters except 2'll end up being too easy

For a game that is insanely difficult, aiming for "too easy" and landing on moderately hard anyway should be the goal for QOL updates.

39 minutes ago, grm9 said:

exactly, it might end up being disappointing for people that'll only be learning to do it because of the boss being much more forgiving and dying even after you do disappointingly badly

So its better for people to not try kill AFW at all? If klei released a big QOL update for AFW there would be an influx of people that will try to kill him, if they do the QOL right these people would have success or would actually enjoy the fight. 

39 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people on the forums suck at the game, there's nothing wrong with using forums polls for these discussions since klei themselves use forums for seeing what do people like or not like and what do you suggest for using for discussions like this for seeing what do people like or not like if not a poll from here, considering that there're hardly any polls with bigger sample size

You are quoting bias as f polls as "evidence" to back up your opinions. I already explained how they are wrong and having wrong statistics is definitely not better than having no statistics. If you can use polls as evidence, then I can use the consistent AFW nerf threads that pop up every month as evidence to backup that a AFW nerf is needed for the community to flourish 

39 minutes ago, grm9 said:

a lot of people that aren't good at the game still like FW

They liked using exploits to watch him die for his loot. They don't actually enjoy the gameplay aspects of the fight, so its a good idea that klei reworks AFW so the larger majority of people outside the forums will enjoy the fight. 

 

2 hours ago, dst_lover said:

Don’t make things up in the poll they said it’s mostly fine but could (use minor adjustments) or ( having longer vulnerability window the one who made the post make it so all people who went any type of change have to vote in the same area 

You are getting caught up in semantics, poll is very obviously about minor QOL nerfs to AFW not to include adjustments to make him harder. Hence the example.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

For a game that is insanely difficult, aiming for "too easy" and landing on moderately hard anyway should be the goal for QOL updates

no, it'll just end up being too easy, not moderately hard

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

So its better for people to not try kill AFW at all? If klei released a big QOL update for AFW there would be an influx of people that will try to kill him, if they do the QOL right these people would have success or would actually enjoy the fight

???

why on earth would someone never try the fight unless they hear that there was a patch that made it easier not knowing how it even was before the patch, i've never met any one that tried to kill FW but never succeeded in doing that

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You are quoting bias as f polls as "evidence" to back up your opinions. I already explained how they are wrong and having wrong statistics is definitely not better than having no statistics. If you can use polls as evidence, then I can use the consistent AFW nerf threads that pop up every month as evidence to backup that a AFW nerf is needed for the community to flourish 

they pop up with like 2 same people and almost no one else supporting them every time, posts with actual widely accepted ideas usually get like 20 likes at least and no 4 page long arguments about them needing to not get added, i don't see why are they wrong or at least more wrong than looking at the forums at all

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

They liked using exploits to watch him die for his loot. They don't actually enjoy the gameplay aspects of the fight, so its a good idea that klei reworks AFW so the larger majority of people outside the forums will enjoy the fight

no, there's a lot of people that aren't good at the game and still like fighting FW with out cheese

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

no, it'll just end up being too easy, not moderately hard

I disagree.

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

???

why on earth would someone never try the fight unless they hear that there was a patch that made it easier not knowing how it even was before the patch, i've never met any one that tried to kill FW but never succeeded in doing that

I succeeded in killing AFW, does that mean I want to fight him again and find him fun? No its doesn't. All the people that fought AFW and went "jesus that fight was annoying I don't want to do it again" will give him another go.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they pop up with like 2 same people and almost no one else supporting them every time, posts with actual widely accepted ideas usually get like 20 likes at least and no 4 page long arguments about them needing to not get added, i don't see why are they wrong or at least more wrong than looking at the forums at all

Vklfall is a new member that made an account just to complain about AFW, the amount of people that have issues with AFW that don't have a voice is going to be alot more than the people screaming to keep AFW the same, alot of the nerfs suggested aren't going to cause veteran players so much stress that they can't just get on with it.

Me and your, Moonlight shackle idea is the perfect solution that keeps everyone happy and the forums doesn't even want to humour that either for some unexplainable reason.

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, there's a lot of people that aren't good at the game and still like fighting FW with out cheese

Yeah i don't think alot of people even fight AFW to begin with, the entire questline needs QOL updates, finding atrium has been ticked off, now shadow pieces need a way to be forced summoned outside of a new moon.

[grm9]

15 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I disagree

so klei are cursed with making things moderately hard whenever they try to make them too easy because ???

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah i don't think alot of people even fight AFW to begin with, the entire questline needs QOL updates, finding atrium has been ticked off, now shadow pieces need a way to be forced summoned outside of a new moon

i don't see any issue with them only being possible to spawn on new moon considering that you can do the fight 1st try with just tanking and enough stuff

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Vklfall is a new member that made an account just to complain about AFW, the amount of people that have issues with AFW that don't have a voice is going to be alot more than the people screaming to keep AFW the same, alot of the nerfs suggested aren't going to cause veteran players so much stress that they can't just get on with it

nah that'd negatively affect also people that'll be learning the fight later and no i don't see why'd there end up being more people that'd do that and they also got advice about how to kill the boss by making it easier, their issue was it being hard when using strats that weren't easy, not the boss just being bad

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I succeeded in killing AFW, does that mean I want to fight him again and find him fun? No its doesn't. All the people that fought AFW and went "jesus that fight was annoying I don't want to do it again" will give him another go

i've only seen like 5 people that are like that and they could just return cheese for that

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

so klei are cursed with making things moderately hard whenever they try to make them too easy because ???

DST is an inherently hard game due to its game mechanics. A noob playing willow and has hacked unlocked affinities, isn't going to be better at killing bee queen because willow's lunar flame is really strong against bee queen. Strong character perks require skilled players, who have mastered the basics, to take advantage of them.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

i don't see any issue with them only being possible to spawn on new moon considering that you can do the fight 1st try with just tanking and enough stuff

Its very easy to miss a new moon. People might quit out of their session before the next new moon and forget when they pick up DST again. It's not very intuitive.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

nah that'd negatively affect also people that'll be learning the fight later and no i don't see why'd there end up being more people that'd do that and they also got advice about how to kill the boss by making it easier, their issue was it being hard when using strats that weren't easy, not the boss just being bad

How would a nerf hurt people learning the fight? If the fight is easier, it's easier to learn.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

i've only seen like 5 people that are like that and they could just return cheese for that

I don't need the loot, i need the fight to be less tedious so it's more fun and I don't have to resort to cheese. Resorting to cheese or exploits shouldn't be the standard we set for klei.

[Well-met]

small reminder that no one likes browsing giant quote wars

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

small reminder that no one likes browsing giant quote wars

i dont even know what exactly is goin on here like it starts to sound like no one is gettin anywere