[Poll] On Cheese Strategies and Exploits

[GetNerfedOn]

[gaymime]

"did you use to use a cheese/exploit" should have a "not anymore" option. i -used- to use them a lot but most of them were rendered null because of changes to the game and one i just gave up on because it was such a pain to do

[Catuna_]

may this pöst be struck döwn with the förce of a thöusand warriörs

[GetNerfedOn]

7 minutes ago, gaymime said:

"did you use to use a cheese/exploit" should have a "not anymore" option. i -used- to use them a lot but most of them were rendered null because of changes to the game and one i just gave up on because it was such a pain to do

In this case i wanted a pure close ended question; only yes or no counts but you may discuss further (as you have) in the comments

If i had a quarter for the times people have wanted alternate options for close ended questions i'd have three quarters. hey i've almost got a dollar!

[gaymime]

10 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

In this case i wanted a pure close ended question; only yes or no counts but you may discuss further (as you have) in the comments

If i had a quarter for the times people have wanted alternate options for close ended questions i'd have three quarters. hey i've almost got a dollar!

you know, that is fair

[grm9]

dumpster fire reignited

[Arcwell]

Poll options for 4 and 5 don't make sense to me.

I love cheese, however I am unsatisfied with the current state of Klei patching more and more cheese strategies.

There is not a single option for question 5 that reflects this opinion.

[GetNerfedOn]

42 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Poll options for 4 and 5 don't make sense to me.

I love cheese, however I am unsatisfied with the current state of Klei patching more and more cheese strategies.

There is not a single option for question 5 that reflects this opinion.

I'll add options to address those, thanks for the catch

[edit: my rationale for constructing questions 4 and 5 is to keep provided options to define an answerer's sentiment very broad given the 5 question 20 option limit; however i will admit to perhaps iffy wording mismatch on my part.

granted the basis thread i wanted to poll off of (of which there will be another for another topic also included) is also troublesome to sort out, but i want to make sense of things anyways so we get something useful and concrete regardless of how vitriolic things may seem.]

[Final edit: the iffy wording was in question 3; I was polling attitudes to cheese itself instead of the state of cheese. I've reworded the poll accordingly.]

[SilverSpoon]

The golden rule as cheese supremacist: if you hate cheese or exploits, just don't use and only play multiplayer with people who don't use.

[Gashzer]

Dont group cheeses and exploits together. They are two different things.

Cheese is overprep or smart use of a legitimate mechanic to make a fight really easy. Example 40 bunnymen or 24 catapults to completely overwhelm the likes of bee queen. Cheesy but not exploiting anything.

Exploit is using a bug to make a fight really easy. Example the old lureplant bug to lock ancient fuelweaver in place then using voidwalking bug to attack him freely. This is abusing developer oversight and bugs which should always be fixed or a legitimate method introduced to take its place like pillar bug being fixed then made into a legitimate strategy for ancient guardian.

So I reject this poll as its fundamentally spreading misinformation by its mere existence.

 

[GetNerfedOn]

33 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Dont group cheeses and exploits together. They are two different things.

Cheese is overprep or smart use of a legitimate mechanic to make a fight really easy. Example 40 bunnymen or 24 catapults to completely overwhelm the likes of bee queen. Cheesy but not exploiting anything.

Exploit is using a bug to make a fight really easy. Example the old lureplant bug to lock ancient fuelweaver in place then using voidwalking bug to attack him freely. This is abusing developer oversight and bugs which should always be fixed or a legitimate method introduced to take its place like pillar bug being fixed then made into a legitimate strategy for ancient guardian.

So I reject this poll as its fundamentally spreading misinformation by its mere existence.

 

There's plenty of overlap between the two terms; hence why i included them together.

While the definition has been mostly subjective and varies, the most prevalent definition of Cheese refers to "any unfair, cheap or unnecessarily easy tactics". Strategies used may be legitimate or not, and in one definition of cheese use of exploits and glitches is paramount. but the bottomline is the unfair/uneccesarily easy, as shown below:

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

 

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21867/origins-of-the-gaming-term-cheese-strategy

This overlap is noted in the fact that, through the past few years, notable exploits are commonly referred to as cheese:

Spoiler

 

 

 

So in conclusion: from the evidence i've presented I doubt my poll has been misinforming at all; there's simply plenty of overlap between the two terms to the point that they're nearly synonymous, at least in this community's definition (if not in the official attempt to define it).

[Gashzer]

12 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

There's plenty of overlap between the two terms; hence why i included them together.

While the definition has been mostly subjective and varies, the most prevalent definition of Cheese refers to "any unfair, cheap or unnecessarily easy tactics". Strategies used may be legitimate or not, and in one definition of cheese use of exploits and glitches is paramount. but the bottomline is the unfair/uneccesarily easy, as shown below:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms

 

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21867/origins-of-the-gaming-term-cheese-strategy

This overlap is noted in the fact that, through the past few years, notable exploits are commonly referred to as cheese:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

So in conclusion: from the evidence i've presented I doubt my poll has been misinforming at all; there's simply plenty of overlap between the two terms to the point that they're nearly synonymous, at least in this community's definition (if not in the official attempt to define it).

It would be alot better for the community if we don't try to overlap them. Let's not minimize exploitive gameplay by calling them a "cheese".

And the evidence I've already provided shows a clear difference and a need to define them separately in DST.

Klei hasn't been removing cheese they have been patching exploits. We can all still use "unfair" and "unnecessarily easy tactics" such as spamming catapults/merms/bunnymen to steamroll bosses, all three are accessible in some form to all characters.

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

The golden rule as cheese supremacist: if you don't like cheese or exploits, just don't use and only play multiplayer with people who don't use.

This logic is the basis for the brilliant Ancient fuelweaver nerf that grm9 and myself came up with!

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/158295-moonlight-shackle-new-celestial-altar-craft-suggestion-afw-nerf/

If you don't like the nerf, just dont use the item!

It's the ultimate, perfect, undeniable logic 

[SilverSpoon]

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

This logic is the basis for the brilliant Ancient fuelweaver nerf that grm9 and myself came up with!

If you don't like the nerf, just dont use the item!

It's the ultimate, perfect, undeniable logic 

I see, That's a flawless logic... If you ignore the fact that it's impossible!

[Gashzer]

7 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I see, That's a flawless logic... If you ignore the fact that it's impossible!

It's impossibly perfect logic, I agree! 

If people can beg Klei to keep exploits in the game using the logic that people can simply choose not to use them if they dont agree with the exploit.

Then it's also fair for me and grm9 to beg for klei to introduce recraftable single-use boss nerf items using the same logic that if people don't want the boss nerfed, don't use the nerf item.

 

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Then it's also fair for me and grm9 to beg for klei to introduce recraftable single-use boss nerf items using the same logic that if people don't want the boss nerfed, don't use the nerf item.

OK, feel free to do as you wish in other thread, Please.

Community Standards Policy No.4:Stay on topic.

[Gashzer]

9 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

OK, feel free to do as you wish in other thread, Please.

Community Standards Policy No.4:Stay on topic.

It is on topic. It's related to exploits which is the name of the topic.

I'm currently suggesting ideas which could solve the issues that this thread is bringing up.

Why do people use exploits? Because bosses are too hard to kill or too tedious to farm. Let's cut out the middle man of using exploits by introducing optional boss nerf items like my moonlight shackle. 

Silverspoon do you have any suggestions or thoughts on how to prevent the need/why the need exists, for widespread use of exploits by the playerbase? Clearly klei are patching all exploits slowly but surely, therefore more ideas on how to deal with the fallout of klei's actions is good for the community, no?

 

[SilverSpoon]

30 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

It is on topic. It's related to exploits which is the name of the topic.

I'm currently suggesting ideas which could solve the issues that this thread is bringing up.

Here you are. I don't want to go off the topic any further, so I won't be responding to this matter.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/forum/76-dont-starve-together-suggestions-and-feedback/

30 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Silverspoon do you have any suggestions or thoughts on how to prevent the need/why the need exists, for widespread use of exploits by the playerbase? Clearly klei are patching all exploits slowly but surely, therefore more ideas on how to deal with the fallout of klei's actions is good for the community, no?

I'm agree for when fixing cheese or exploits, also fixing the hated stuff that caused it. Like the tentapillar set piece.
However being a Birdbrain who spams suggestions in not appropriate threads or being a Cocky guy who be jerk to people not agreeing with you isn't good for the community.
 

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

It would be alot better for the community if we don't try to overlap them. Let's not minimize exploitive gameplay by calling them a "cheese".

And the evidence I've already provided shows a clear difference and a need to define them separately in DST.

Klei hasn't been removing cheese they have been patching exploits. We can all still use "unfair" and "unnecessarily easy tactics" such as spamming catapults/merms/bunnymen to steamroll bosses, all three are accessible in some form to all characters.

This logic is the basis for the brilliant Ancient fuelweaver nerf that grm9 and myself came up with!

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/158295-moonlight-shackle-new-celestial-altar-craft-suggestion-afw-nerf/

If you don't like the nerf, just dont use the item!

It's the ultimate, perfect, undeniable logic 

Brillant hahahahahahahahaha

[Gashzer]

35 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

However being a Birdbrain who spams suggestions in not appropriate threads or being a Cocky guy who be jerk to people not agreeing with you isn't good for the community.
 

I believe you are not following the guidelines that you are so quick to quote. 

Also came across this in the community guidelines lads 

"Exploitation: You may not exploit bugs within any game systems or community pages for your own benefit or for the benefit of any other individual. If a bug is found please report the issue in the appropriate support forum!"

Boom the entire topic of exploits is answered by klei themselves. Was right under our noses in the community guidelines that only Silverspoon has read but still doesn't follow lol.

37 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Brillant hahahahahahahahaha

The moonlight shackle is a brilliant idea thanks! Arubaro i always love the constant support I get from you bro 

[Radicaljoe]

I've always used cheese as a supplement for "fun". For example, using tentacle pit against bq. The fun was building the pit and getting to watch bq get blended every 20 days. as compared to the opposite spectrum of actually fighting bq and feeling a hollow victory after spending 4 panflutes, 5 beehats and 40 pierogis.(I really hate bq) 
Old ck, always used bees because of how terrible he was. New ck, I haven't even tried to cheese him because he's actually fun for me now. 
(I put fun in quotations because fun is subjective, is game, play how you like.)

[A4FE]

ngl i just dont know any lmfao! so i dont really feel strongly on any cheese. im a stickler for doing things the hard way though, so if i knew there was some wack setup to fight something id prob just go in with a hambat anyways lol 

the bulbmin has a point though, fun is the REAL winner! 
i get both sides though (i think), it'd feel bad if there was a mechanic or fight you like that a ton of people just skip with some arcane ****, and at the same time its a sandbox! doing and knowing about arcane **** is like player mastery! will add more later if this thread becomes a WARZONE

[RozeMeteor]

[SilverSpoon]

36 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I believe you are not following the guidelines that you are so quick to quote. 

Awwww, Please don't take personally my innocent analogy to your profile picture. It's just like your  or , there is no jerk involved.

36 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Also came across this in the community guidelines lads 

"Exploitation: You may not exploit bugs within any game systems or community pages for your own benefit or for the benefit of any other individual. If a bug is found please report the issue in the appropriate support forum!"

Boom the entire topic of exploits is answered by klei themselves. Was right under our noses in the community guidelines that only Silverspoon has read but still doesn't follow lol.

Is this clearly a "Exploit for financial benefit" thing, like skin or spool, or your birdie thought is correct, so will everyone who answers Yes to "Do you use cheese strategies or exploits" in this thread get banned?

[Echsrick]

just dont eat cheese if you dont like it but if you like cheese then do so if you so please

with games often reseting anyways who cares? let me use the cheese, no ones gettin hurt, not like i use the cheese against other players

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Awwww, Please don't take personally my innocent analogy to your profile picture. It's just like your  or .

I don't, hence why I'll never report you even if you are being a fiesty wee hypocrite 

5 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Is this clearly a "financial benefit" thing, like skin or spool, or will everyone who answers Yes to "Do you use cheese strategies or exploits" in this thread get banned?

Clearly it isn't just that, the whole point of this thread is to complain about klei fixing exploits, they might not ban people for using them but klei really are cracking down on boss exploits going forward.

This is evident from how tightly designed all the new bosses are. Which is fantastic, good job klei!

Us using exploits should be seen as a red flag for klei to do some QoL to whatever bosses are being commonly killed using exploits, this list being:

• Dfly - does anyone not use the straight wall exploit for this boss? What even are larve? i never had to fight one.
• Bee queen - not the worse on this list but is in need of a small QoL fix to become more fun. (Suggested an army vs army qol were bee queens grumbles only target your followers for a whole load of 1v1 fights and vice versa, allowing you to 1v1 bee queen as long as your followers remain alive.)
• Glitching out 20 tier 3 shadow chess piece knights for farming.
• Ancient fuelweaver - the big one, we all know why people want to bug out this boss.

4 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

just dont eat cheese if you dont like it but if you like cheese then do so if you so please

with games often reseting anyways who cares? let me use the cheese, no ones gettin hurt, not like i use the cheese against other players

Well you say this but if Klei agreed with this mindset of yours we would have never got the new ancient guardian fight which is a million times better than glitching him behind a pillar. And all the new bosses wouldn't have been this fun to fight.