Maul: All aspects.

[Bumber64]

8 hours ago, arubaro said:

3.4 hp per hit means 34hp every 10 hits. Most bosses let you hit them a minimum of 4 hits

Then why aren't you calculating for 4, which is 13.6?

Wow, that certainly doesn't sound like much now that we've said it. Armored bearger hits for 87 with a standard attack. So you need 85% armor (or BS armor) to counter that. Yeah, you can kite to reduce damage, but you can also get stunned and not heal. (You're also not attacking/healing while repairing.)

Okay, so surely 27.2 healing with any 80+% armor must be godmode? Well, simple healing items heal from 30 (poultice) to 60 (surf n' turf). They also don't lower sanity, the drain of which doubles along with maul's healing.

Guess what low sanity does in most situations? It undoes your so-called godmode, because you're being dragged away from the boss lest you get your healing outpaced or yourself stunlocked (and your armor broken = dead).

In either case, it still doesn't let you play incompetently, or anything. God forbid the hardest item to obtain be powerful, but higher healing could actually be worse without sanity food. (Kind of leaning towards not losing levels on breaking instead now, unless they change over-healing to not cost the full sanity amount.)

[arubaro]

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Then why aren't you calculating for 4, which is 13.6?

 

because you wont be hit 100% of times... i just show the minimum you are allowed to be healed per enemy atack

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wow, that certainly doesn't sound like much now that we've said it. Armored bearger hits for 87 with a standard attack. So you need 85% armor (or BS armor) to counter that. Yeah, you can kite to reduce damage, but you can also get stunned and not heal. (You're also not attacking/healing while repairing.)

again, if you have activated the rifts you should be able to kite some atacks...more than enoght to recover the hp lost at the same cost of just wasting weapon durability that you would waste anyways because you are hitting the enemy...

you only repair once every 160 or 180 hits... i dont see it as an high ammount of time wasted

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Okay, so surely 27.2 healing with any 80+% armor must be godmode? Well, simple healing items heal from 30 (poultice) to 60 (surf n' turf). They also don't lower sanity, the drain of which doubles along with maul's healing.

if you lose more than 27.2 health points every 8 atacks you are doing something wrong. All of the items you mentioned take extra time to get, takes an slot and have other downsides like spoilage. This item has the same cost to maintain as the reaper

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Guess what low sanity does in most situations? It undoes your so-called godmode, because you're being dragged away from the boss lest you get your healing outpaced or yourself stunlocked (and your armor broken = dead).

unless you do an horrible fight, your sanity will stay away of the shadow spawning threshold and with the high damage, even if you reach that point, you can quckly kill them. I have fight many bosses only using the maul and shadows werent a problem

im not saying that the current version feels like godmode, buffing the healing would.

43 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

In either case, it still doesn't let you play incompetently, or anything. God forbid the hardest item to obtain be good.

but it is more than good but, by the way you ask questions, seems like you didnt give it a try. I recommend it, srly. I ditched every healing food from the healing bin (i just left jelly just in case because they dont spoil and anyway i have the free slot) because it was spoiling, i have killed many bosses(some of them while ignoring freezing...) , cleaned the ruins, deal with waves...not a single healing item/food was used

idk what else people expect from a item that, sure takes time, but once you have it is forever and only cost the same cheap material as repairing reapers...
 

just try it and see, you dont even need high protection armor, is really hard to make your lose go under 80%...above constanly >80% wouldnt feel like good mode? one thing is making a late game item strong another is making it unbalance. How will klei add an enemy to counter that weapon? they will need to simply ignore it like they ignore volt goat jelly for balance if not, people not using the maul, would be punished by dealing with 800 damage enemies or people using the maul wont ever have the chance of dying unless they go afk in the middle of the boss fight...

i wont defend my point futher, if people wants buffs without experience the item good for them and i hope klei is smart enough to try stuff before they take a deccission based on biased blind arguments

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

again, if you have activated the rifts you should be able to kite some atacks...more than enoght to recover the hp lost

[...]

if you lose more than 27.2 health points every 8 atacks you are doing something wrong.

[...]

im not saying that the current version feels like godmode, buffing the healing would.

Can anyone actually make use of the buffed healing or not? Which is it?

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

but it is more than good but, by the way you ask questions, seems like you didnt give it a try. I recommend it, srly.

They're called rhetorical questions. I've done plenty of tests in my testing world.

(Haven't reached CC or AFW in my normal world, given time to do so. Last played it before moon quay update. Thus I don't have any feedback on effort to reach rifts content, other than that it was beyond my interest even before being implemented.)

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

idk what else people expect from a item that, sure takes time, but once you have it is forever and only cost the same cheap material as repairing reapers...
 

just try it and see, you dont even need high protection armor, is really hard to make your lose go under 80%...above constanly >80% wouldnt feel like good mode? one thing is making a late game item strong another is making it unbalance.

I think you're seriously overestimating the willingness of most players to keep fighting bosses in their world after they've beaten everything. (If they're staying, it's probably for megabasing. Speedrunners are gone.) That's the point at which you obtain the item, and it demands 9 more bosses of you, at minimum.

My testing indicates that, for bosses, 90% armor (dreadstone, self-repairing) and jellybeans is generally enough. 95% (night armor, trivially cheap) is definitely enough if you're not having issues with sanity. This is all available pre-maul. (There are considerations that prevent you from just facetanking most bosses or crowds of mobs in any case. Stunlock, primarily.)

[arubaro]

13 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Can anyone actually make use of the buffed healing or not? Which is it?

Sorry but i think i dont understand the question.

Just in case, what i mean is that the current version of the maul is too good and both versions from the beta were unbalanced and made the game a joke 

16 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

They're called rhetorical questions. I've done plenty of tests in my testing world.

(Haven't reached CC or AFW in my normal world, given time to do so. Last played it before moon quay update. Thus I don't have any feedback on effort to reach rifts content, other than that it was beyond my interest even before being implemented.)

Then i hope you give it a try in your normal world and see how well this weapon works for long term

17 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

think you're seriously overestimating the willingness of most players to keep fighting bosses in their world after they've beaten everything. (If they're staying, it's probably for megabasing. Speedrunners are gone.) That's the point at which you obtain the item, and it demands 9 more bosses of you, at minimum

And what is the problem with that? Ofc isnt a weapon made for short sessions. Wont change that buffing it, people who enjoy speedruns wont stay in a world just because they unlock a weapon that makes you uneable to die.

As i said many times, this weapon wasnt developed for short sessions,  that ie obvious when is asking for repeating bosses. For megabasers that cost means nothing, as much as people like to bring it to the discussion,  because is something you are gonna do anyways. I always refight BQ, CK, deerclops, crystal deerclops, bearger, armored bearger, possesed varg, DF, toadstool, AG, FW, frostjaw, nightmere werepig, scrappy werepig pig, moose goose,  celestial champion, sometimes antlion, klaus, shadow pieces (most of the time 2 at once)...that are 19 bosses plus, if you wanna make the process faster you can add eye of terror because it counts and has low hp. Leveling up to max level took me like 10 days while doing other stuff

26 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

My testing indicates that 90% armor (dreadstone, self-repairing) and jellybeans is generally enough. 95% (night armor, trivially cheap) is definitely enough if you're not having issues with sanity. This is all available pre-maul.

And i never said this was better than anything as it shouldn't.  Is an option, a very good option with many advantages and few disadvantages

In my long term world im all the time using 80% protection: void for most stuff and BS armor for ruins so i can fight rictus and is good to reflect the damage from rooks or bishops. I used night armor when i fought 4 CC yesterday. In every scenario my health never reached less than 80% without any other healing and i didnt use galic spice (the spice was applied in some pierogies that became orange for not using them...) do you consider that an underwhelming result for a long term weapon? If was on me i would nerf the healing or buff the sanity drain because i like a harder experience but dont think klei should (i can simply turn on the higher damage receive setting)

[grm9]

18 minutes ago, arubaro said:

BS armor for ruins is good to reflect the damage from rooks or bishops

it doesn't work on a bishop and only makes you need to hit a rook 1 less time at best if you meant using it with void cowl and shadow axe and doesn't change amount of hits required for killing it if using bright shade sword and helm

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

it doesn't work on a bishop and only makes you need to hit a rook 1 less time at best if you meant using it with void cowl and shadow axe and doesn't change amount of hits required for killing it if using bright shade sword and helm

I though it worked in bishops since the vines from wormwood does

I dont care about the rest because i wear it cuz rictus. No need for better armor with the maul

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, arubaro said:

I used night armor when i fought 4 CC yesterday. In every scenario my health never reached less than 80% without any other healing and i didnt use galic spice (the spice was applied in some pierogies that became orange for not using them...) do you consider that an underwhelming result for a long term weapon?

Haven't fought CC, but I'm told by forums that it's an easy boss. (Is that 4 at once or in a row? Anything fought in a row isn't as much impressive.) Either way, I already mentioned how 95% reduction is 95% of the effect. (You might well get by on just jellybeans instead of pierogi.) And now you're turning the sanity penalty into a buff with lunacy.

Someone else can vouch for if that's underwhelming for CC or not. I've heard of a stunlock attack you have to avoid, which maul certainly wouldn't help with.

[just passingby]

It needs to be strengthened anyway. 

[Sacco]

1 hour ago, just passingby said:

It needs to be strengthened anyway. 

no, it does not.

The maul is making me almost unkillable in my world, it'a just the best weapon in the game and it's undebatable.

I don't think that many people actually used the maul, and were just angry that it got nerfed.

[arubaro]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Haven't fought CC, but I'm told by forums that it's an easy boss. (Is that 4 at once or in a row? Anything fought in a row isn't as much impressive.) Either way, I already mentioned how 95% reduction is 95% of the effect. (You might well get by on just jellybeans instead of pierogi.) And now you're turning the sanity penalty into a buff with lunacy.

Someone else can vouch for if that's underwhelming for CC or not. I've heard of a stunlock attack you have to avoid, which maul certainly wouldn't help with.

I mentioned the 4 in a row to simply mark that i didnt needed a single healing item. The fight is "easy" because doesnt have the hard mechanics of FW and the boss dont despawn so you can leave and recover but, spoiler, i didn't needed it becase i was always fulk health thanks to the maul.

Cc might not be as hard as FW but compared to the rest of bosses, isnt a easy boss. Has a lot of atacks that you need to learn and the damage is really high

Anyway, why are you giving feedback of a weapon that you arent experiencing from a mode you arent experiencing? Isnt a very useful feedback

5 hours ago, Sacco said:

no, it does not.

The maul is making me almost unkillable in my world, it'a just the best weapon in the game and it's undebatable.

I don't think that many people actually used the maul, and were just angry that it got nerfed.

Totally, just see how even people that never activated the rifts are asking for buffs... idk how klei can even balance the game if people who just talk for the sake of talking is giving feedback without experience...

[SilverSpoon]

How does a "U just have never used" sensor work and make a decision?

Or are you smart and skill enough to able to label who have opinions you don't like as "U just have just never used"?

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

How does a "U just have never used" sensor work and make a decision?

Or are you smart and skill enough to able to label who have opinions you don't like as "U just have just never used"?

... instead of going after me in every topic you could read the user's comment i answered. They are literally saying they dont used it outside of a test world. In a test world these numbers might feel small

Are you ok? 

[Szczuku]

On 9/25/2024 at 12:42 PM, Shining Galaxy said:

Please don't use Bundling Wrap and Polar Bearger Bin in your own games anymore, they are very OP

I mean, being able to carry 6 stacks of crockpot dishes that spoil 20 times slower in a single inventory slot is cerainly much more powerful than the old days of dst where jerky or honey where the best food for travel

[Bumber64]

6 hours ago, arubaro said:

Anyway, why are you giving feedback of a weapon that you arent experiencing from a mode you arent experiencing? Isnt a very useful feedback

What mode would that be? Does the maul behave differently in a test world rather than a naturally-progressed one? Can the bosses tell the difference?

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

What mode would that be? Does the maul behave differently in a test world rather than a naturally-progressed one? Can the bosses tell the difference?

It does in the sense of you not noticing how much you save in the long term. You can spawn without effort jelly beans or surf n turf and compare them with the maul instead of experiencing how you are doing content without wasting time preparing food or beating BQ but dealing with some inks per year

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

It does in the sense of you not noticing how much you save in the long term. You can spawn without effort jelly beans or surf n turf and compare them with the maul instead of experiencing how you are doing content without wasting time preparing food or beating BQ but dealing with some inks per year

I've obtained jellybeans and surf n' turf in my normal world. (Preferred dragonpie and beefy greens over the later because I don't use flingo farms, and trawlers didn't exist yet. Being Webber, I might've been able to do something with nurse spiders.) Healing items aren't some huge ordeal.

Inks are irrelevant when maul alternative is reaper.

[Dingle]

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I've obtained jellybeans and surf n' turf in my normal world. (Preferred dragonpie and beefy greens over the later because I don't use flingo farms, and trawlers didn't exist yet. Being Webber, I might've been able to do something with nurse spiders.) Healing items aren't some huge ordeal.

Inks are irrelevant when maul alternative is reaper.

Is there a fish flingo farm?

[Bumber64]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Is there a fish flingo farm?

Presumably one that involves merms? I think you'd need to swap to Wurt to build it.

[SilverSpoon]

16 hours ago, arubaro said:

... instead of going after me in every topic you could read the user's comment i answered. They are literally saying they dont used it outside of a test world. In a test world these numbers might feel small

Are you ok? 

Nice Gaslighting.

"Just have never used it in the testing world" is not "U just have never used it", and even if it was so, It's only one person Bumber64 not "I don't think that many people actually used the maul" or "They are literally saying they dont used". Also the only time I would "going after" you is if you harass me first.

One more thing to add, I also used the Maul for over 20 hours. Since you need extra sanity food instead of health food, I think it didn't save materials. In conclusion, it's nothing more than a weapon only +4 planer damage stronger than the Reaper, which breaks if you don't maintain it. It's a waste of Possessed Shadow Atrium, so I'll make it for a just fun item after all members in server have Gloom Bell and Nightmare Saddle.

[leavesofblue]

I have levelled the Shadow Maul to level 3 twice now, and I just can't see a reason why I would use this weapon over the Brightshade Sword for one specific reason, the hunger drain. Allow me to breakdown my opinions on the weapon fully starting with the other effects.

Life-steal: Is fine where it is. It could be bumped up slightly, but to those using this weapon, who are capable of killing 9 bosses, we've been dealing with health loss for long enough to not need the life gain, however it makes the weapon feel more powerful and worth the investment, so leave it. 

Axe efficiency: This is the one true benefit over the Brightshade Sword. For inventory management, the ability to chop for logs rather than carry them everywhere is excellent. Keep this at 2.25 or match the Moon Glass Axe when in final form, once again makes the weapon feel worth the investment and truly end game. 

Insanity Loss: I feel this is well balanced and suits the weapon, there should be a downside with the other advantages gained, however the Brightshade Sword gets a seriously point in it's favour over the Maul because of this effect. When using the Maul in the caves, especially for an extended period of time, expect to have to deal with countless shadow creatures on top of whatever you're fighting. Another massive negative to the Maul's sanity drain is that it doesn't pair with the best item in the game, the Enlightened Crown. You lose the Enlightened Crown's light and extra DPS benefit extremely quick. 

Weapon Hunger Drain: This is the issue for me. It takes 9 bosses to reach max level and if you allow the durability to reach 0 at any point in time it's fully reset. Perfectly fine, naturally you lose durability quickly from fighting/chopping as expected, but on top of that, now you need to babysit the weapon, and more frequently at level 3, just to keep its advantages? It is beyond obnoxious when you're working on farming, base building, or any number of chores outside of fighting and have to find something to kill to appease this weapon. The 2nd time I lost its durability I was scrambling back to base and didn't even realize it was depleting until it was already 0, even despite the incessant warnings. Prepare to use quadruple the Void Repair Kits that you would Brightshade repair kits on the Brightshade sword. Not to mention you need to use them before the weapon reaches 0. When the Maul is hungry the durability drains quickly, so you leave what you're doing and run and kill something close which also drains the durability. Now your 100% Maul is at 82% because of the time to find something to kill and the use of the weapon. Better craft a few more Void repair kits because this will happen countlessly. 

How can we fix this? because babysitting a weapon that's minimally better than a brightshade sword, if that, is not worth the investment in time, sanity, and repair kits. 

Ways to improve this: Defeating a boss should give an extended period of satiation, perhaps 10 days, which is half the timer for most resets and you can't farm the same boss. Allow the player to feed the Maul Monster Meat (specifically). This would allow the player to not have to constantly find something to kill while they're in the middle of something else. Perhaps feeding monster meat actually slightly increases the durability of the weapon to counter its drain. Another option could be if the Maul reaches 0 durability, only reset it to its previous stage. It will force you to fight 3 more bosses again, however you won't have to worry about countless repair kits or feeding until you repair the weapon to 100% durability again. 

At the very least, extend the length of time it takes for the Maul to become hungry.

My personal preference would be to remove the hunger mechanic entirely after defeating X unique bosses (12, 15 whatever) This makes the weapon feel truly special as it proves the player is capable to defeating the range of enemies the game throws at you, and removes the chore of babysitting its hunger. 

If anyone can come up with an argument to use the Maul over the Brightshade Sword despite the hunger drain, I'm all ears. 

 

 

[arubaro]

52 minutes ago, leavesofblue said:

I have levelled the Shadow Maul to level 3 twice now, and I just can't see a reason why I would use this weapon over the Brightshade Sword for one specific reason, the hunger drain. Allow me to breakdown my opinions on the weapon fully starting with the other effects.

Life-steal: Is fine where it is. It could be bumped up slightly, but to those using this weapon, who are capable of killing 9 bosses, we've been dealing with health loss for long enough to not need the life gain, however it makes the weapon feel more powerful and worth the investment, so leave it. 

Axe efficiency: This is the one true benefit over the Brightshade Sword. For inventory management, the ability to chop for logs rather than carry them everywhere is excellent. Keep this at 2.25 or match the Moon Glass Axe when in final form, once again makes the weapon feel worth the investment and truly end game. 

Insanity Loss: I feel this is well balanced and suits the weapon, there should be a downside with the other advantages gained, however the Brightshade Sword gets a seriously point in it's favour over the Maul because of this effect. When using the Maul in the caves, especially for an extended period of time, expect to have to deal with countless shadow creatures on top of whatever you're fighting. Another massive negative to the Maul's sanity drain is that it doesn't pair with the best item in the game, the Enlightened Crown. You lose the Enlightened Crown's light and extra DPS benefit extremely quick. 

Weapon Hunger Drain: This is the issue for me. It takes 9 bosses to reach max level and if you allow the durability to reach 0 at any point in time it's fully reset. Perfectly fine, naturally you lose durability quickly from fighting/chopping as expected, but on top of that, now you need to babysit the weapon, and more frequently at level 3, just to keep its advantages? It is beyond obnoxious when you're working on farming, base building, or any number of chores outside of fighting and have to find something to kill to appease this weapon. The 2nd time I lost its durability I was scrambling back to base and didn't even realize it was depleting until it was already 0, even despite the incessant warnings. Prepare to use quadruple the Void Repair Kits that you would Brightshade repair kits on the Brightshade sword. Not to mention you need to use them before the weapon reaches 0. When the Maul is hungry the durability drains quickly, so you leave what you're doing and run and kill something close which also drains the durability. Now your 100% Maul is at 82% because of the time to find something to kill and the use of the weapon. Better craft a few more Void repair kits because this will happen countlessly. 

How can we fix this? because babysitting a weapon that's minimally better than a brightshade sword, if that, is not worth the investment in time, sanity, and repair kits. 

Ways to improve this: Defeating a boss should give an extended period of satiation, perhaps 10 days, which is half the timer for most resets and you can't farm the same boss. Allow the player to feed the Maul Monster Meat (specifically). This would allow the player to not have to constantly find something to kill while they're in the middle of something else. Perhaps feeding monster meat actually slightly increases the durability of the weapon to counter its drain. Another option could be if the Maul reaches 0 durability, only reset it to its previous stage. It will force you to fight 3 more bosses again, however you won't have to worry about countless repair kits or feeding until you repair the weapon to 100% durability again. 

At the very least, extend the length of time it takes for the Maul to become hungry.

My personal preference would be to remove the hunger mechanic entirely after defeating X unique bosses (12, 15 whatever) This makes the weapon feel truly special as it proves the player is capable to defeating the range of enemies the game throws at you, and removes the chore of babysitting its hunger. 

If anyone can come up with an argument to use the Maul over the Brightshade Sword despite the hunger drain, I'm all ears. 

 

 

I think i have played 3 or 2.5 in game years and only experienced the maul dying from hunger 2 times and i was building a lot. Maybe was because i build with broken walls a lot but didnt felt to me like a chore or something intrusive

[Dingle]

23 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I've obtained jellybeans and surf n' turf in my normal world. (Preferred dragonpie and beefy greens over the later because I don't use flingo farms, and trawlers didn't exist yet. Being Webber, I might've been able to do something with nurse spiders.) Healing items aren't some huge ordeal.

I was asking what you meant by "flingo farms" here. I thought it was related to fish, but sounds like it wasn't. Something related to easy healing food?

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

I was asking what you meant by "flingo farms" here. I thought it was related to fish, but sounds like it wasn't. Something related to easy healing food?

Maybe some fire farm/perma freeze set up to automatically kill BQ

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

I was asking what you meant by "flingo farms" here. I thought it was related to fish, but sounds like it wasn't. Something related to easy healing food?

I saw a video somewhere on the forums of a setup involving starcaller staff, burnable items, and flingomatics to stunlock and automatically deal damage to spawned mobs without burning loot. Very little effort once set up. Winona optional.

If you use pig shacks, you'll be getting meat (best on full moon). If merms, then fish. Those are the exact ingredients required for surf n' turf. There's a large upfront cost on the shacks, but not as much as acquiring maul.

[Cruvimaster]

I see we had 63 votes and that's a very good number. Thank you to everyone who participated.