Making Winona's Shadow Side more satisfying to play

[FluffyBun]

Currently, Winona's Shadow Side skills are quite boring, aiding only in exploration, safety, and her Planar Strike. I believe Winona should be able to do a little more with her Shadow Side powers, to bring her up to par with her Lunar Side abilities.

My suggestion hopes to remedy Winona's Shadow Side weakness by giving her new tools to play with

General Changes

Winona can now investigate 4 Pure Horror-bearing objects before her skill goes on cooldown.

Pure Horror chance for eligible investigation objects is increased from 25% chance for 1, to 100% chance for 1 and 25% chance for 2.

Roseate Catapult

Crafted with 1 Winona's Catapult, 1 Pure Horror, and 1 Fragile Rose. Requires Winona to have Shadow Seeker II and investigate a Stagehand to prototype.

Roses will automatically extinguish the catapult if it is on fire. If the Roseate Catapult is destroyed, it will be saved by Charlie and will return to the nearest Night Light or Roseate Spotlight in item form.

Roseate Spotlight

Crafted with 1 Winona's Spotlight, 3 Pure Horrors, and 2 Fragile Roses. Requires Winona to have Shadow Seeker II and investigate a Ruins Light to prototype.

Roses will automatically extinguish the spotlight if it is on fire. When deployed, will automatically float above Winona's head. Has a charge and needs to be recharged if low. Will seek out the nearest Generator to charge itself if low. Can emit light while charging. Counts as a Night Light when near a Generator. Will be saved by Charlie when destroyed, returning the non-Roseate version.

Roseate Generator

Crafted with 1 Winona's Generator, 4 Pure Horrors, and 3 Fragile Roses. Requires Winona to have Shadow Seeker II and investigate a Thulecite Statue to prototype.

Roses will automatically extinguish the generator if it is on fire. Automatically destroys large falling objects within its area of effect. When picked up, also stores every structure connected to the Roseate Generator. When placed down, places down every structure connected to he Roseate Generator. Will be saved by Charlie when destroyed, returning the non-Roseate version.

Conclusion

I believe this changes will give Shadow Winona her own unique identity, trading the convenience of teleports for the safety of Winona's structures. Additionally, it will also fix the primary problem with her, which is the inconvenience of acquiring Pure Horror in the early game. It also plays into her engineering side a little more than how it currently does.

[Dr.Webber]

I like this I don’t know if this is supposed to be adding on to the current stuff but I feel like if it is adding on then the number should be increased for lunar to also I feel like the ability to not be attack at night should have some sort of lunar equivalent 

[FluffyBun]

On 8/30/2024 at 3:52 PM, Dr.Webber said:

I like this I don’t know if this is supposed to be adding on to the current stuff but I feel like if it is adding on then the number should be increased for lunar to also I feel like the ability to not be attack at night should have some sort of lunar equivalent 

Lunar has global teleport, statue teleportation, permanent Planar Strike, and infinite inventory slots. Lunar Winona is among the strongest things in the game for any purpose except speedrunning.

Shadow Winona, comparatively, has bridges, a 1-way teleport, wormhole redirection, and "resurrection". This only adds Structure Safety, Deploy Convenience, and Expanded Night Immunity to the mix.

Let's see what Lunar and Shadow Winona have:

Teleportation

Lunar: Statue, Item, and Player Global Teleportation, 0 Cost

Shadow: Player teleportation, 1 inventory slot per charge, closest Night Light only. Wormhole redirection.

Winner: Lunar

Structures

Lunar: Teleportation of an unlimited quantity of a shared pool of backpacked structures to any area, 0 cost

Shadow: None (Added: Instant deployment of a 9-Catapult Setup, Structure safety in case of fire or trampling)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Tie)

Light

Both: Spotlight

Lunar: Spotlight can be stored in base

Shadow: None (Added: Spotlight follows the player)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Shadow)

Gathering

Lunar: Planar Strike

Shadow: None (Added: Generator automatically destroying AG pillars, increasing rate of rock farming)

Winner: Lunar

Safety

Lunar: Telebrella to nearest checkpoint and to base

Shadow: Charlie's Rose (Added: Structure safety in case of fire or trampling)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Shadow)

Exploration

Lunar: Teleportation to last visited area and back to base at the cost of 3 inventory slots

Shadow: Charlie's Rose Bridge, one way teleport back to base with Fragile Rose

Winner: Lunar

I'd say it's pretty fair

[Dr.Webber]

19 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

Lunar has global teleport, statue teleportation, permanent Planar Strike, and infinite inventory slots. Lunar Winona is among the strongest things in the game for any purpose except speedrunning.

Shadow Winona, comparatively, has bridges, a 1-way teleport, wormhole redirection, and "resurrection". This only adds Structure Safety, Deploy Convenience, and Expanded Night Immunity to the mix.

Let's see what Lunar and Shadow Winona have:

Teleportation

Lunar: Statue, Item, and Player Global Teleportation, 0 Cost

Shadow: Player teleportation, 1 inventory slot per charge, closest Night Light only. Wormhole redirection.

Winner: Lunar

Structures

Lunar: Teleportation of an unlimited quantity of a shared pool of backpacked structures to any area, 0 cost

Shadow: None (Added: Instant deployment of a 9-Catapult Setup, Structure safety in case of fire or trampling)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Tie)

Light

Both: Spotlight

Lunar: Spotlight can be stored in base

Shadow: None (Added: Spotlight follows the player)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Shadow)

Gathering

Lunar: Planar Strike

Shadow: None (Added: Generator automatically destroying AG pillars, increasing rate of rock farming)

Winner: Lunar

Safety

Lunar: Telebrella to nearest checkpoint and to base

Shadow: Charlie's Rose (Added: Structure safety in case of fire or trampling)

Winner: Lunar (Added: Shadow)

Exploration

Lunar: Teleportation to last visited area and back to base at the cost of 3 inventory slots

Shadow: Charlie's Rose Bridge, one way teleport back to base with Fragile Rose

Winner: Lunar

I'd say it's pretty fair

Does that seem very equal to me?
 

first change I’d make is replaced enlightened shards with infused moon shards have them give the same power as nightmare, fuel dust for the normal generator

Then have the dark vests be more random rather than going to search  for  shadow things that will  give you nightmare fuel and pure horror on rare occasions have it  spit out its own things and the dark vestiges will have different effects on different things and Winona will be able to industrialize shadow magic in a way that gets her new stuff rather than just improving old stuff

she would gain three crafts with one of them being just something to aid  one of the other two

Something equal to the calibrated perceivers on the shadow side

In something equal for each the fragile rose and not getting killed by Charlie on the lunar side

as you can see besides the infused moon shards I don’t really have exact idea but you could idea that they should be equal maybe equal different ways from each other but still cool when you break everything down

 

 

 

[FluffyBun]

16 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

Does that seem very equal to me?
 

first change I’d make is replaced enlightened shards with infused moon shards have them give the same power as nightmare, fuel dust for the normal generator

That just makes Lunar strictly worse. Like completely unplayable levels of worse. Enlightened Shards are very important to Lunar Winona, since they reduce the total number of teleport stations to only destinations, and they make Planar Strike a viable damage source.

Nightmare Fuel is also ridiculously cheap as compared to Infused Moon Shards.

16 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

Something equal to the calibrated perceivers on the shadow side

Lunar side don't have vine bridges.

[Creatingabe1125]

Why make new crafts when you could just have it as a skill part of the newly built gadgets?

Also to be fair you have to invest time into the lunar side to get those things and to fully utilize it you have to defeat the final boss in the world you’re playing in.

I think shadow can be more helpful early game but lunar is better endgame.

Maybe make shadow have better endgame perks and lunar have a few perks usable early game with maybe making the teleportation and winbot only to be started mid game.

random idea but what if you could inspect a stage hand with shadow seeker 2 once to get the knowledge of crafting a stage hand that can trap nearby threats that attack Winona like the spiny weed and wormwood’s bright shade roots trapping attackers but with roses instead. Random idea but it would add protection to bases a bit and could be used to protect Winona structures or other allies.

[Dr.Webber]

4 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

hat just makes Lunar strictly worse. Like completely unplayable levels of worse. Enlightened Shards are very important to Lunar Winona, since they reduce the total number of teleport stations to only destinations, and they make Planar Strike a viable damage source.

ya a bit But unlimited power seems like a bit much especially if the other side just doesn’t get the same level of power Now or maybe slightly less if we account for the slightly more resources than it takes to build a gemerator

Why would changing it to infused moon shards

 

 

4 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

Lunar side don't have vine bridges.

I don’t know if you’re trying to compare the calibrated perceivers to vine bridges but Vine Bridges are a Shawty replacement for something that doesn’t take that much to craft and is permanent in the off occasion they get broke so not only is a nothing burger of a craft it’s a crappy Nothing burger of a craft while the calibrated perceiver on the other hand unlocks the crafts for just about anything without having to do the work of building the proper things and having the Right materials Well, at those proper things Which is especially hard because those materials can be a death sentence if you can’t craft the things in a pinch

[chirsg]

Winona deserves nothing. Allegedly, it's 'her' fault that we lost voidwalking, although I'm convinced without any doubt in my mind that klei waved the white flag to the killjoys who wanted it gone and pledged something that wrecked the game.

She gets what she deserves. No refunds.

 

Plus, why would you even choose the shadow side to begin with? You're electing to use a worse character. Just use the teleporter and put it to bed. I can't believe there are even winona mains who would choose to rub 2 sticks together instead of transport more advanced than a bullet train. 

[FluffyBun]

11 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

ya a bit But unlimited power seems like a bit much especially if the other side just doesn’t get the same level of power Now or maybe slightly less if we account for the slightly more resources than it takes to build a gemerator

 

Nightmare Fuel is basically unlimited anyway, they litter the world every few seconds

11 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

I don’t know if you’re trying to compare the calibrated perceivers to vine bridges but Vine Bridges are a Shawty replacement for something that doesn’t take that much to craft and is permanent in the off occasion they get broke so not only is a nothing burger of a craft it’s a crappy Nothing burger of a craft while the calibrated perceiver on the other hand unlocks the crafts for just about anything without having to do the work of building the proper things and having the Right materials Well, at those proper things Which is especially hard because those materials can be a death sentence if you can’t craft the things in a pinch

Let's flip it: Rose Bridge is good for early game, while Calibrated Perceiver gives you nothing in singleplayer. Maybe a Dark Sword if you somehow don't have a shadow manipulator but already killed the shadow pieces.

14 hours ago, Creatingabe1125 said:

lunar have a few perks usable early game with maybe making the teleportation and winbot only to be started mid game.

Teleportation is actually "good enough" early game, if you get good rng with caches. One for base, one for cave entrance, one to carry around, and one for ruins. Hammer a bunch of pig houses or enlist a Woodie/Maxwell in multiplayer.

[Creatingabe1125]

1 hour ago, FluffyBun said:

Teleportation is actually "good enough" early game, if you get good rng with caches. One for base, one for cave entrance, one to carry around, and one for ruins. Hammer a bunch of pig houses or enlist a Woodie/Maxwell in multiplayer.

Teleportation early on like that is a bit op is it not? And you can only really utilize it like mid game unless you’re experienced and/or a rusher (ruins rush, lunar island rush, you get it).

[FluffyBun]

11 minutes ago, Creatingabe1125 said:

Teleportation early on like that is a bit op is it not? And you can only really utilize it like mid game unless you’re experienced and/or a rusher (ruins rush, lunar island rush, you get it).

It's just boards, tape, and doodads lol, Hammer like 3 pig houses and that's enough boards for instantaneous base travel in surface, 3 more pig houses and you have a direct line from ruins to entrance

You can abuse teleportation basically from day 10 or something onward

[Primalflower]

9 hours ago, chirsg said:

Winona deserves nothing. Allegedly, it's 'her' fault that we lost voidwalking, although I'm convinced without any doubt in my mind that klei waved the white flag to the killjoys who wanted it gone and pledged something that wrecked the game.

She gets what she deserves. No refunds.

 

Plus, why would you even choose the shadow side to begin with? You're electing to use a worse character. Just use the teleporter and put it to bed. I can't believe there are even winona mains who would choose to rub 2 sticks together instead of transport more advanced than a bullet train. 

so antagonistic

[Creatingabe1125]

Also have to put the time and space to hold and get the materials to make them. As well as the fuel to use them, either nitre or gems and the nitre generator isn’t as effective as the gemerator. 

Also that’s kind of op for early game.

[FluffyBun]

8 hours ago, Creatingabe1125 said:

Also have to put the time and space to hold and get the materials to make them. As well as the fuel to use them, either nitre or gems and the nitre generator isn’t as effective as the gemerator. 

Also that’s kind of op for early game.

Nitre? Earlygame Winona just use shadow side fuel and lunar side structures. Lategame, you use the idol to repick to get the full lunar tree.

Materials? Hammer a bunch of pig houses, kill a bunch of spiders, and pick a bunch of grass lol.

8 hours ago, Primalflower said:

so antagonistic

If Klei wants to re-add voidwalking they can always make a new item for it. Maybe make it a post-rift mob that swims in the void which you can saddle or something.

[Creatingabe1125]

18 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

Nitre? Earlygame Winona just use shadow side fuel and lunar side structures. Lategame, you use the idol to repick to get the full lunar tree.

Materials? Hammer a bunch of pig houses, kill a bunch of spiders, and pick a bunch of grass lol.

It is easy to craft but to use it like the way your describing you would have to use materials you would use for base building early game aka wood and you would need to explore a lot of places like ruins and lunar island as well as the time to set it up properly. You would also be using up nightmare fuel you could be using for weapons or other stuff early game or using your time on getting nitre you will have to refill every time you teleport.

Easy to craft, yes.

Easy to setup the way you’re describing it and using a lot of wood, silk, grass, exploration, and spending your time and space on setting that up and getting the cache stuff early game, not unless your a rusher/expert at this game so no.

Mid game if your good enough yes but early game your not setting up a system, and even with one your still using a lot of resources and potentially time depending on cache luck as you need the teleparasol and the teletransport station as well as the fuel and the generator for mid game. Worth more waiting for mid game to set that up as you still have walking and have no reason to teleport that early to anywhere like the ruins or lunar island as even if you’re a rusher you would have already grabbed everything you needed from there.

Plus teleportation is more of a mid-late game thing.

[FluffyBun]

7 hours ago, Creatingabe1125 said:

It is easy to craft but to use it like the way your describing you would have to use materials you would use for base building early game aka wood

no reason to teleport that early to anywhere

Having 1 teleporter allows you to cut any given exploration trip in half

Having 2 teleporters allow you to continue wherever you left of

Teleporters cut gathering time in half. I'd say it's worth the 3 boards and 6 silk.

[Creatingabe1125]

16 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

Having 1 teleporter allows you to cut any given exploration trip in half

Having 2 teleporters allow you to continue wherever you left of

Teleporters cut gathering time in half. I'd say it's worth the 3 boards and 6 silk.

You’re ignoring the rest of what I said and to use it like that you need to use up 2 inventory which will be a bit of space assuming your not using the piggy back as well as using your time and space to get those resources early game and to craft them as well as needing nitre for them or use up nightmare fuel you could be using else where. You would need to chop trees for the generators and craft even more tape and more stuff being added to your plate early game assuming your a normal/beginner player.

[FluffyBun]

On 9/5/2024 at 5:25 AM, Creatingabe1125 said:

You’re ignoring the rest of what I said and to use it like that you need to use up 2 inventory which will be a bit of space assuming your not using the piggy back as well as using your time and space to get those resources early game and to craft them as well as needing nitre for them or use up nightmare fuel you could be using else where. You would need to chop trees for the generators and craft even more tape and more stuff being added to your plate early game assuming your a normal/beginner player.

You "use" 2 inventory slots but gain one base's worth of inventory slots

Beginners also don't have insight points

[Creatingabe1125]

21 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

You "use" 2 inventory slots but gain one base's worth of inventory slots

Beginners also don't have insight points

I did try to play Winona but I got tired so I stopped, I did get the goggles but didn’t built the teleporting stuff though I did get the advanced cache box on my first try. I guess you could use it early game but you have to get good rng and focused on it a bit. Though I still think early game shouldn’t have teleportation still and maybe another early game skill for Wagstaff’s skills.

Also I basically meant anyone who isn’t quite as experienced/skilled as pros.