winona poll i guess

[Copyafriend]

winonas catapults being unusable by people other than winona is currently a hot topic, i made this (possibly over specific) poll to try to determine public opinion because vocal minorities can be hard to parse. maybe only a few people want her to share, or perhaps most people want it to stay as is.

to clarify, maybe means you're against it, but could be persuaded, and maybe not means you're for it, but have reservations

[Gashzer]

Im for other characters being able to use winonas catapults... Only if other characters can use wandas alarming and backtrek watches.

Its either all of each characters most powerful abilities are shared or none of them are.

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

 

Its either all of each characters most powerful abilities are shared or none of them are.

it is not either or, there can be a balance, you just might not like the balance.

[Cyrefy]

What I said in another post:

"The agreement would be this: 
Everyone could use Winona's catapults, as was the case before, and in exchange for that, with the new calibrated perceiver item that she has to discover recipes, it would also be possible for her to discover character recipes, only for usable items, such as the lighter and bear from willow, battle helm and spear from wigfrid, pinetree pioneer hat and tent roll from walter and others."

[ChintzyGnat]

The old catapult damage is fine for everyone, but winnona should only be able to use special ability and buffs for them. I genuinely thought this is what klei was going for in the dev stream.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

it is not either or, there can be a balance, you just might not like the balance.

It literally is either or. Its not fair otherwise. 

2 minutes ago, Cyrefy said:

What I said in another post:

"The agreement would be this: 
Everyone could use Winona's catapults, as was the case before, and in exchange for that, with the new calibrated perceiver item that she has to discover recipes, it would also be possible for her to discover character recipes, only for usable items, such as the lighter and bear from willow, battle helm and spear from wigfrid, pinetree pioneer hat and tent roll from walter and others."

Yeah no, the compromise is we can already use winonas trusty tape and spotlight.

Winona's catapults are her version if the alarming clock. Would you be ok with everyone having access to wandas alarming clock?

[ChintzyGnat]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Winona's catapults are her version if the alarming clock. Would you be ok with everyone having access to wandas alarming clock?

Yes because only wanda can boost it to above 100 when she's old. So I'd assume it would do 40 with other characters as they can't tap into the magic.

[Gashzer]

5 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said:

The old catapult damage is fine for everyone, but winnona should only be able to use special ability and buffs for them. I genuinely thought this is what klei was going for in the dev stream.

Or just swap to winona to use catapult farm setups then swap back. What is the problem?

1 minute ago, ChintzyGnat said:

Yes because only wanda can boost it to above 100 when she's old. So I'd assume it would do 40 with other characters as they can't tap into the magic.

Ok lets advocate this change first

[Copyafriend]

Just now, Gashzer said:

It literally is either or. Its not fair otherwise. 

it "literally" is not. this is not a discussion. you can think it's not "fair" and that's fine. but you not liking something does not mean that it can ONLY be one way OR another way.

[ChintzyGnat]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ok lets advocate this change first

Bruh

[chaosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said:

The old catapult damage is fine for everyone, but winnona should only be able to use special ability and buffs for them. I genuinely thought this is what klei was going for in the dev stream.

Same. I thought the purpose of the remote was that only Nona could use it, and the remote would be necessary to activate the enhancements from her skill tree. I think a lot of people were under this impression based on the lack of feedback about catapults in the 3 weeks between dev stream and beta.

 

21 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

i made this (possibly over specific) poll to try to determine public opinion

I voted "yes: because i want to make farms as other characters". There's a bunch of cool interactions in the game that will no longer be possible without having another character run the farm relying on catapults: bird farm, certain versions of varg farm, living log farm, etc.

These farms don't need Winona's full power from catapults. I think her skill tree buffs should only apply when Winona is the one activating the catapults, and possibly only via the remote.

Some of us have spent countless hours building such farms, and it's disheartening that this is being taken away completely.

[Jakepeng99]

I am fine with either way, though does winona spotlight work for all characters at least?

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

it "literally" is not. this is not a discussion. you can think it's not "fair" and that's fine. but you not liking something does not mean that it can ONLY be one way OR another way.

Well do you really think Klei is gonna revert this change?

They made this change because its overwhelming not fair to winona if everyone can access her strongest ability. 

This is the same as everyone having Wolfgangs double damage. Makes no sense what so ever.

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I am fine with either way, though does winona spotlight work for all characters at least?

afaik yes

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

afaik yes

Nice, so she can at least do a few things for base.

[EatenCheetos]

The structure of this poll is so weird. You’re gerrymandering the results by splitting them up like that

[Copyafriend]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Well do you really think Klei is gonna revert this change?

They made this change because its overwhelming not fair to winona if everyone can access her strongest ability. 

This is the same as everyone having Wolfgangs double damage. Makes no sense what so ever.

I didn't make this to "force" klei to revert the change, I was merely curious about the results. I do honestly want the change to be reverted, but i've never really taken advantage of the catapults before (outside of playing as winona), and probably wouldn't start now. this is mostly just because I just don't play super long worlds where I end up taking advantage of this kind of thing.

And yes, I get it, you don't like it, repeating it doesn't make your argument more persuasive. I was pointing out that you were presenting a false choice and pretending that it was the truth, when in reality they can do anything from removing the catapults entirely to allowing all characters to use the catapults to nerfing it for other characters.

A balance can be found, you just presumably wont like it if it is. Klei doesn't have to look for or find a balance though.

[chaosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

It literally is either or. Its not fair otherwise. 

False dichotomy. It could be made so that Winona's catapult tree only applies when winona activates the catapults. The old version could remain for everyone else, and Winona can get better version and control with the remote.

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah no, the compromise is we can already use winonas trusty tape and spotlight.

Winona's catapults are her version if the alarming clock. Would you be ok with everyone having access to wandas alarming clock?

The alarming clock could be balanced appropriately to be usable by anyone else. Wanda getting a big bonus on it when she's elderly is what makes it actually useful to her. It could be balanced to be sharable with the whole team, and I wouldn't be against it. It should just be that it's the best when Wanda uses it because it's her item and in the future because she specs her skill tree into melee damage or whatever.

Being able to pick it up and use it and not do as much damage unless you're Wanda seems like a fine solution there. It's this sort of solution that people are asking for with Winona's catapults.

It's not like we've spent a bunch of time building worlds reliant on alarming clocks as other characters, unlike catapults. We're not asking for something new to be given to everyone else, just something old to not be taken away.

[ChintzyGnat]

2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

The structure of this poll is so weird. You’re gerrymandering the results by splitting them up like that

Litterly how is this gerrymandering, all the options are there and you only lose if you don't read past the first 3 ig.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

The structure of this poll is so weird. You’re gerrymandering the results by splitting them up like that

actually I purposefully balanced the results to make sure people can express what they want and WHY they want it. there is an equal amount of "yes" and "no"

there is also an equal amount of "maybe but leaning one way" and "maybe but leaning another"

I did not gerrymander, I provided a poll, all polls are inherently biased of course, but I actually attempted to remember your main arguments when forming the "no" reasons, to properly present your side of the argument.

[Cyrefy]

 

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah no, the compromise is we can already use winonas trusty tape and spotlight.

Winona's catapults are her version if the alarming clock. Would you be ok with everyone having access to wandas alarming clock?

"The agreement would be this: 
Everyone could use Winona's catapults, as was the case before, and in exchange for that, with the new calibrated perceiver item that she has to discover recipes, it would also be possible for her to discover character recipes, only for USEABLE items, such as the lighter and bear from willow, battle helm and spear from wigfrid, pinetree pioneer hat and tent roll from walter and others."

it would also be possible for her to discover character recipes, only for USABLE items,

only for USEABLE

USEABLE

What part of USEABLE don't you understand?

[chaosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well do you really think Klei is gonna revert this change?

I don't know if Klei is going to revert it, but I believe they will read these discussions and make a decision one way or another. We're still very early in the beta after all.

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

They made this change because its overwhelming not fair to winona if everyone can access her strongest ability.

I cannot wrap my head around this fairness idea. It takes nothing away from Winona if other characters can use a lesser version of her catapults.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I am fine with either way, though does winona spotlight work for all characters at least?

Yes

[Copyafriend]

i think its pretty interesting how devisive this is. its not quite a 50/50 split but its a lot more even than i would have expected

[chaosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

i think its pretty interesting how devisive this is. its not quite a 50/50 split but its a lot more even than i would have expected

Current results look like this 

 

To summarize it's like

yes: 46%

no: 27%

maybe: 15%

maybe not 10%

no opinion: 2%

 

To summarize further by coalescing the maybe and maybe not into yes and no, respectively:

yes: 61.54%

no: 36.54%

undecided: 1.92%

 

Which is not particularly close to 50/50. More than 50% more "yes" than "no".

Edit: spreadsheet for calcs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jPfNUn7rPx5tpTjd4p53RMiOnusziwMz2xDkutaqRfM/edit?usp=sharing