Anis5240 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 Basically, as the title said. When I first heard of his skill tree, I thought, "Hey, this could be interesting." Especially after the (good) riot of Maxwell's rework. What a load of lies it was. 15 points to spend out of 25 perks that can be gotten seems pretty reasonable. But why the hell one has to spend the damn 7 points for a discount lantern? AND ONLY TO TORCHES??? Was it any wonder why most Wilson players just choose the full transmutation tree, either of the beard perks and storage, then either affinity? Because that's how much the torch tree sucks. It may as well not exist and it won't even change a thing. Like, ugh. Willow literally gets a discount Star Caller's light at basically no cost from her lighter perks and tons of embers. How does one correlate a lighter to a fireball? Who the hell knows. The other parts of Wilson's skill tree is fine in my opinion. I enjoy the full transmutation tree and the beard storage perk. I just wish for the torch tree to be either condensed/reworked or even abolished entirely. Even a medic Wilson has more basis in the storyline and Klei didn't even focus on that, which is an absolute stinker. Anyway, rant's over. Happy birthday, Wilson Percival Higgsbury. Here's hoping that you will get better treatment soon. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 As a torch tree enjoyer. Gonna have to disagree. The only useful bit of the transmulation tree is the gem branch to get early iridesence gem and the only useful bit of the beard tree is boosted insulation. Beard storage is meh because you have to wait for the beard to grow and i wont always have a full beard in the end of spring/summer for example. This leaves only the torch tree to invest in. In all its glory! I never have to worry about long shard transitions for bulbs, can quickly and cheaply throw torches around to makeshift nighttime or cave battle arenas. Torch branch is the perfect branch for new players to invest in or for joining late to a pub server or starting a new world. Wilson also has zero character gimmicks to learn as all his skills and perks are passive or crafting resources. With Maxwell you have to learn all his mechanics and how they operate... ewww no thanks! For people looking the true vanilla DST experience , Wilson is the truest experience for new and old players without all the needless and distracting faff that most other characters come with. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiyss Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 This is one of the moments that I think I agree that we need a tweak in power, specifically on the torch side. We need torches having atleast 3 more perks to go along with it to be able to stay balanced. Don't make it better than a lantern or buff it a lot, just make it so torches can be used in plenty of different areas of the game rather than just tossing it on the ground which was something a lantern could already do. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloakingsumo198 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 3 hours ago, Gashzer said: For people looking the true vanilla DST experience , They can do that themselves by just not investing his skill trees, this "vanilla dst experience" is changing everyone is gonna get a skill tree if a new player actually enjoyed and stuck with the game they will use skill trees how about giving him actual options. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridley Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 I think the torch side could use some more power, but the beard side feels only useful for new players. I don't like fighting Klaus or Dragonfly with insulation gear because the heat will melt you. I basically keep it shaved year round for boss fighting. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 30 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: They can do that themselves by just not investing his skill trees, this "vanilla dst experience" is changing everyone is gonna get a skill tree if a new player actually enjoyed and stuck with the game they will use skill trees how about giving him actual options. He does have abit of options. I choose torch tree over full transmutation. As i find myself using the upgraded torches alot more over being able to turn rot into manure or cut stone into marble. Clearly other people choose full transmutation. My problem right now with the skill trees is it takes way too long to unlock all insight points even for one character. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloakingsumo198 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 52 minutes ago, Gashzer said: He does have abit of options You lie through your teeth his transmutation skill could have easily been one line to make room for actual other options but instead one skill was divide 3 times so he could have SOMEWHERE to invest his points. That's my big problem compare his and Wolfgang's skill tree to the other characters and you can see they have actual SKILLS not just a linear upgrade line that adds small change to its weak first choice. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChintzyGnat Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 Does every tree need to be useful for veteran players? Not every player can make it past day 20, many do not know about the lantern either. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvltBear Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 I do miss playing Wilson. Would love Klei to have another look at his tree. Honestly hard to say which part of is worse. Transmutation is really not useful at all except for tediously trading gems up to the useful greens. And you'd only be doing that after running a complex varg farm as another character. I really question that entire tree even for new players. I don't know, I have 1.5k hours including DS1 so it's tough to imagine being new again. But especially the affinity perks are disappointing, which are certainly not something "new" players will be touching. Like really? More transforming? By the time you're post rifts you're not gonna need to be transmuting that stuff. And the torch area just has way too many perks, don't need 7 different perks for buffing a torch. The beard is my favorite part and feels like a unique Wilson feature even though it's not terribly useful. The lack of any combat perks is the worst aspect of the tree and as soon as anyone has a basic understanding of the game they'll probably switch. Like the game is unbearable solo without some kind of buff to combat. I guess it all depends if Klei sees him as the starter character, if they do then unlikely any change. If not he could have slightly useful amateurish inventions to unlock. That's kind of his thing it seems, inventing questionably useful things. Like the boat magnet lol. If they decide to give Wes a joke skill tree I won't be too happy, because it'll mean two characters are essentially not worth playing and that's a bummer for me. Personally I did not find the other characters particularly difficult to learn so the concept of a newbie character is not something I entirely support. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted April 23, 2024 Author Share Posted April 23, 2024 25 minutes ago, KvltBear said: And the torch area just has way too many perks, don't need 7 different perks for buffing a torch. Not to mention said perks are just "torch gets brighter/lasts longer". Like, what? It's like Klei turning off their big brain creativity after Maxwell's rework. (Even if shadow prison seems a bit busted.) Compare the others' skill trees to Wilson's and the disparity between those gets too real. I still have hopes for Klei to consider reworking the torch tree, but hey, they also being nonchalant over not releasing the Wigfrid and Willow's skill tree short so what do I know, lol Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkemal23 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: They can do that themselves by just not investing his skill trees, this "vanilla dst experience" is changing everyone is gonna get a skill tree if a new player actually enjoyed and stuck with the game they will use skill trees how about giving him actual options. You know whats even worse? Klei also agrees with the "If you don't like it then don't use it" logic (which is fine by me) but the only exception is Wilson for some reason. Like I get why people don't want him to be reworked but why does he have to have specifically badly designed skilltree? Why not give him an actually fun (not strong, fun. There is a difference.) skilltree? If you don't like it you can just ignore it just like how other characters work. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvltBear Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 It's just...not very creative. The tree is entirely torch and transmute. Not super fun. The beard is cool though and on brand for Wilson. I think if they made the tree for experienced players it'd be full of moderately useful inventions. He's invented the boat magnet, gardeneer hat, what else? I wouldn't have been surprised to see the expandinator credited to him as well. Stuff like that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkemal23 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 37 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said: Does every tree need to be useful for veteran players? Not every player can make it past day 20, many do not know about the lantern either. The thing is, the playerbase you referring to (likely) has three options: a)They learn how to get a better light source. It doesn't matter if its lantern or not, most of the players eventually stop using torches as light sources. b)They just switch characters. c)They stop playing the game. d)They play all the way to endgame with torch tree. And continue to use torches in endgame. None of the options are worth enough to give up such a huge potential imo. Which sucks for long term player like me. Especially considering that me and other people waited five years just to get a portable transmutation for endgame Megabasers. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 i think i dit say something to a simmilar topic something about how instead of torch, that wilson can craft healing items cheaper and like a stronger version of them of sorts, and that crafts that take away your health are reduced like telltale hearts because i was thinkin that it is kind of fitting Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridley Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 8 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said: Does every tree need to be useful for veteran players? Not every player can make it past day 20, many do not know about the lantern either. Why shouldn't a skill tree have useful/fun stuff for new and old players? I think the torch throwing could be a really fun mechanic if it just had a little more application. You can start fires from a distance with a thrown torch although there's not really any opportunities for that. Sure, you can light gunpowder with extra style, but gunpowder is terrible even if it didn't smoulder first. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruvimaster Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 Wilson is the only character who has not had a rework. And this is the fault of the community itself that encourages Klei to keep it like this. It's the fallacious argument of the game's standard, but it fails to make the mechanics of the bosses more difficult. So they turn to cheating or alternative solutions. No different from someone who claims to be a Wes player. There are Wilson players who are exceptions, but an exception only serves to confirm a rule. For anyone just starting to play, I would never recommend Wilson. If the initial objective is survival, I would certainly recommend Wendy, Wigfrid or even Wolfgang. The use of torch is so strategically ridiculous in the game that it's not even worth commenting on. It is essential for the first days of the game (day 2 or 3). And that's all, except for a few moments when you need to start a fire on an object. However, Wilson is the character I used most on the portal. He is the most important support character for my gameplay. Not even Warly's recipes come close to Wilson's. And the reason is just two abilities: a) craft flint; b) craft nitre. I believe it is easier for Klei to give Wolfgang even more powers than any kind of improvement for Wilson. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChintzyGnat Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 1 hour ago, mkemal23 said: None of the options are worth enough to give up such a huge potential imo I see nothing wrong with any of those options, if players don't like what they are using then they don't have to use the perks. If people like it, which I know a decent amount of people who do, then it sucks for them to remove the skill because you wanted him to be more "veteran" orientated. Wilson was always just a starting character, no need to give him an anime sword so he's more powerful to match other skill trees. 1 hour ago, Ridley said: Why shouldn't a skill tree have useful/fun stuff for new and old players? Sciencless ruins rushing is an example of old players getting fun using torch toss. I could see the torch toss being nice tho if it applied to a lantern. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted April 23, 2024 Author Share Posted April 23, 2024 50 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said: believe it is easier for Klei to give Wolfgang even more powers than any kind of improvement for Wilson. The reality of almost everything happening due to this skill tree shenanigans is that Klei wanted to promote a variety of playstyles using the same character, but they failed extra hard. As I said in some posts before, what other choices can Wilson players choose to be relevant in both solo and multiplayer? The torch tree sucks as a whole. The transmutation tree is basically QoL stuff, which I don't mind (I greatly use the twig-log and meat-morsel transmutes). The beard perks are fine too, I love the beard storage. The affinity perks are basically more transmutes plus 10% more damage to opposing side and 10% more defense. The affinity perks are the only "combat-wise" perk Wilson can have and even then it kinda stinks. With the whole skill trees going on right now, especially with the next update possibly going to be skill trees and ocean content, I'm starting to feel not so optimistic over what Klei is planning whatsoever. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkemal23 Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 48 minutes ago, ChintzyGnat said: no need to give him an anime sword so he's more powerful to match other skill trees. Characters can be strong but unfun or can be weak but fun. Winona and Wormwood are prime example of these. It's just sad that the second you ask for any type of change for Wilson people immediately think that you want him to have "anime swords" or whatever. This is all becuase Klei has done irreversible damage to forum users perception of "fun" and "Strong" with the new skill trees. I personally would have been happier if they gave him some unique skills for chester since Wilson/Chester duo is so iconic. There were also many ideas including endothermic torches, Beard-rolls, Abilty to dupe or create blueprints etc. The point is, Klei could have made Wilson much more fun without making him strong. Which are two different topics. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChintzyGnat Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 I like the chester duo idea. I do not like the beard roll however 8 minutes ago, mkemal23 said: It's just sad that the second you ask for any type of change for Wilson people immediately think that you want him to have "anime swords I generally see everyone on the forums complaining that a characters skill tree is weaker than someone else's. I never saw anything wrong with torch skills except that it should apply to other light sources. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted April 23, 2024 Author Share Posted April 23, 2024 3 hours ago, Echsrick said: wilson can craft healing items cheaper and like a stronger version of them of sorts, and that crafts that take away your health are reduced like telltale hearts because i was thinkin that it is kind of fitting Indeed. As I said, a medic Wilson would be much more suitable than a goddamn torch holder. In the game (and storyline), he was the one who invented the meat effigy, the telltale heart and the booster shot. In the Forge, he was assigned as the reviver; and in the Gorge, the accompanying skin (Victorian) showed him as a physician. So it was a very big lost opportunity for Klei to NOT utilize this instead. New players will look into the healing tab in the crafting menu after getting hurt and dying multiple times. Some of the items' cost can be daunting to them to get, especially the booster shot needing 8 rot. Do they really know how to get rot? Probably, but most possibly they don't. So I will suggest for Klei to add a counterpart of the rot -> manure transmute, which is the reverse transmute of it. It can be included in the Transmute Icky III if needed. The cost for the manure to be changed into rot? Eh, decide it for yourself. 1 hour ago, ChintzyGnat said: torch toss being nice tho if it applied to a lantern. My friend, the torch toss makes the torch into a discount lantern. The full torch tree is basically a discount lantern. Do you really think the 7 points are justified for it? Out of the 15 points you can get? I personally don't think so. Unless one can set fire onto Crystal Deerclops (or any other mobs) using the thrown torch, then no. 5 hours ago, Gashzer said: problem right now with the skill trees is it takes way too long to unlock all insight points even for one character. The last update (Scrappy Scavengers) cut down the time needed to get the 15 insight points. You need to survive 80 days in total for that. Was it still too long for you? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 30 minutes ago, Anis5240 said: The last update (Scrappy Scavengers) cut down the time needed to get the 15 insight points. You need to survive 80 days in total for that. Was it still too long for you? Oh ty for that. Playing mostly on switch these days which hasnt got the update yet. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvltBear Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 Oh man medic would be a great subclass for Wilson. And how could I forget he invented the original revival method, meat effigy. I mean it freaking looks like him lol. Could've had medic and inventor paths to choose from, with the latter being the anime sword combat buff path. I really like the trees that offer 2 different paths rather than one optimal way of using perks. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anis5240 Posted April 23, 2024 Author Share Posted April 23, 2024 5 minutes ago, KvltBear said: medic would be a great subclass for Wilson Hah, knowing the current Klei they probably gonna slap this perk onto Walter due to being a boy scout which is like no offense, but does a teenage boy really gonna do much better in medical field than a man who legit made healing/revival items himself? Like, I'm not being sarcastic or demeaning or anything, but the current situations are leading to said thoughts. No explanation is given over releasing a Halloween short during Christmas time. Willing to rework part of Wormwood's skill tree but not Wilson's. And many other countless "Klei moments" as I dub them myself. If any of the Klei devs reading this, then I'm sorry if my comments hurt your feelings. But the truth must be said: the torch tree sucks and DOES NOT FIT WILSON'S CHARACTER AT ALL. 10 hours ago, Gashzer said: Beard storage is meh because you have to wait for the beard to grow and i wont always have a full beard in the end of spring/summer for example. You know you can invest points in the beard growth perk, right? The full growth perk line will makes the beard grow up to 2/5/10 days for each stage. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cropo Posted April 23, 2024 Share Posted April 23, 2024 People be sleeping on beard storage, having 3 easily accessible inventory slots for your healing foods for a fight is great. You can fit your stack of 40 jellybeans in there without needing to waste an inventory slot, you can fit 40 rot in there to feed your eyemask/shield. It's a pretty great help. Maybe Wilson's ''perk'' shouldn't be a buff to his torch tree, but have 2 to 3 extra skill-tree points compared to other characters. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/155716-wilsons-skill-tree-is-a-bit-over-a-year-old-now-and-klei-still-didnt-do-any-changes-on-the-worst-part-of-it-aka-a-rant-over-the-torch-tree/#findComment-1711112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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