Don't buff bernie!

[lenship2]

planar entity defense was very unnecessary imo, bernie could've gotten something like 20 flat planar defense instead and it would've been fine

[Mike23Ua]

53 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

If KLei is watching (and probably are, because Beta), after OP's video am sure BERNIE! will receive some nerfing to not have Willow just passively sit there, scratching butt while minion does all the work. Still, as opposed to Abi vs bosses for bulk player-base, Bernie should be a lot better to not overlap and offer different gameplay. But no idle player/minion does it all against mini-/bosses.

Bernie was designed- in the developers own words to be good at fighting bosses, while Abigail was designed to be good at fighting “swarm” type mobs.

This rule was never changed, however… now that Willow is a freaking X-men mutant with Fire Mage Powers.. perhaps Bernie shouldn’t still be so good at fighting those bosses by himself?

I have some ideas to fix that which requires a bit of team work on Willow and Bernie’s Behalf, such as for example her being able to (mostly) stand idle in boss fights as she casts floating fireballs at Bernie to keep him on fire longer, or at the enemy to help it die faster..

but I don’t think Klei is going to get that creative with Willows skill tree, when BERNIE was the only gameplay mechanic Willow really had it made sense for him to be the “Boss Killer” as Klei stated in their own words.

I doubt Klei is going to nerf him for being good at his job, even if that means Willow can stand around idle just watching.

[grm9]

Just now, lenship2 said:

planar entity defense was very unnecessary imo, bernie could've gotten something like 20 flat planar defense instead and it would've been fine

that's not really related because entity protection reduces normal damage taken while flat planar reduces planar damage taken 

[lenship2]

Just now, grm9 said:

that's not really related because entity protection reduces normal damage taken while flat planar reduces planar damage taken 

i know, thats exactly why i think itd be better

giving bernie planar entity protection makes his effective health scale with enemy damage, meaning that bosses will have just as difficult of a time killing bernie as a mere spider would 

imo bernie shouldn't be able to hold his own against any raid boss, with how easily repairable he is and how he's considered by most ppl to be a miniboss, treeguard tier at most

flat planar defense, however, helps protect bernie in a planar environment, without affecting anything pre-rift

[Arcwell]

5 minutes ago, lenship2 said:

planar entity defense was very unnecessary imo, bernie could've gotten something like 20 flat planar defense instead and it would've been fine

He got both, is the thing (15 planar defense instead of 20, but close enough).

BERNIE! is now the only entity in the game that has both planar defense and planar entity protection, which is really weird to think about considering everyone still confuses the latter for the former. 

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bernie was designed- in the developers own words to be good at fighting bosses, while Abigail was designed to be good at fighting “swarm” type mobs.

This rule was never changed, however… now that Willow is a freaking X-men mutant with Fire Mage Powers.. perhaps Bernie shouldn’t still be so good at fighting those bosses by himself?

I have some ideas to fix that which requires a bit of team work on Willow and Bernie’s Behalf, such as for example her being able to (mostly) stand idle in boss fights as she casts floating fireballs at Bernie to keep him on fire longer, or at the enemy to help it die faster..

but I don’t think Klei is going to get that creative with Willows skill tree, when BERNIE was the only gameplay mechanic Willow really had it made sense for him to be the “Boss Killer” as Klei stated in their own words.

I doubt Klei is going to nerf him for being good at his job, even if that means Willow can stand around idle just watching.

My issue is Bernie was never very good at fighting with bosses and in some cases abigail was a better help then Bernie I'm not saying he should be able to solo bosses however.

[Swiyss]

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Imagine these two videos, but with Willow joining in the fight with her spells at a safe distance.

Don't buff bernie more since alot of people think he needs buffed.

 

It looks like bernie has planar defence just like brightshades which reduce damage taken by alot. He probably needs a nerf if anything.

I think the 2 videos looks fine. I think both fights look balanced. I even would want bernie to be ignitable with fire staff. This is very healthy and fun I don't see the problem with this. you're sacrificing lighter skills for him to fight for you. super lovely

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

If KLei is watching (and probably are, because Beta), after OP's video am sure BERNIE! will receive some nerfing to not have Willow just passively sit there, scratching butt while minion does all the work. Still, as opposed to Abi vs bosses for bulk player-base, Bernie should be a lot better to not overlap and offer different gameplay. But no idle player/minion does it all against mini-/bosses.

They should do what they did for Maxwell minions and make bernie stronger when fighting with Willow, because when i actually fought with Bernie rather than standing back, the health felt suitable and justifiable since he is meant to be the tank. I was still at risk and bernie was alright.

My interperation: With the alignment skills, bernie has no planar defence unlike before. But, he gains the planar defence while fighting along side Willow (he would be as strong as he is now when fighting with Willow)

[Swiyss]

maybe they could add a way for her to interact more? or you either have to choose between bernie or your embers. like if you get one you leave the other. that's very healthy and omega fun, imagine choosing between summoner or mage class as willow? AMAZING. I would also argue that they should add more skill to embers, making it a little bit harder to manage, but just a tiny bit

 

Just now, Jakepeng99 said:

They should do what they did for Maxwell minions and make bernie stronger when fighting with Willow, because when i actually fought with Bernie rather than standing back, the health felt suitable and justifiable since he is meant to be the tank. I was still at risk and bernie was alright.

My interperation: With the alignment skills, bernie has no planar defence unlike before. But, he gains the planar defence while fighting along side Willow (he would be as strong as he is now when fighting with Willow)

I like this idea!

[Jakepeng99]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

you're sacrificing lighter skills for him to fight for you.

You dont need to. The Bernie fire perk is uneeded since it contributes so little. Although, it does help for Klaus a moderate amount.

[Swiyss]

Just now, Jakepeng99 said:

You dont need to. The Bernie fire perk is uneeded since it contributes so little.

yeah you definetely don't need to but you should.

[Kubicska]

Lunar and Shadow Bernie being overpowered against non-planar bosses and enemies could be solved by Bernie only turning into their Lunar and Shadow versions when their respective rifts are enabled so Lunar and Shadow Bernie will only be available at the time it makes sense in “progression”. Lunar and Shadow Bernie don’t really fit into the pre-rifts Constant as of now since there aren’t other planar enemies until the rifts are activated. 

[Swiyss]

3 hours ago, Kubicska said:

Lunar and Shadow Bernie being overpowered against non-planar bosses and enemies could be solved by Bernie only turning into their Lunar and Shadow versions when their respective rifts are enabled so Lunar and Shadow Bernie will only be available at the time it makes sense in “progression”. Lunar and Shadow Bernie don’t really fit into the pre-rifts Constant as of now since there aren’t other planar enemies until the rifts are activated. 

they should definetely add this/ change the current version.

[Kubicska]

8 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

they should definetely add this/ change the current version.

It just makes sense after all 

[Jakepeng99]

13 hours ago, Kubicska said:

Lunar and Shadow Bernie being overpowered against non-planar bosses and enemies could be solved by Bernie only turning into their Lunar and Shadow versions when their respective rifts are enabled so Lunar and Shadow Bernie will only be available at the time it makes sense in “progression”. Lunar and Shadow Bernie don’t really fit into the pre-rifts Constant as of now since there aren’t other planar enemies until the rifts are activated. 

The way riffs work are really janky so idk.  They have random downtime.

[Yuuko]

18 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

they need to lower the lock requirements a lot there's no world where burning Bernie is worth 9 points.

Burning Bernie is pretty potent.  imo its stronger than Abi.  I think the point lock is in a good space meaning you have to pick 10 Bernie skills to get burning and planar, leaving only 5 skills left for fire skills.  Its a proper choice in where you want your damage / playstyle to come from.

16 hours ago, Trips said:

Klaus on another hand is a better example, but not as indicative as you may think.

What sticks out to me here is that Bernie does not suffer hit stun OR freeze / burn statuses.  Most allies suffer from these status, it makes Bernie pretty unique.  However Burning Bernie is a retaliate damage per-hit and Klaus does 2 swipes for his basic melee attack.  Each Klaus attack is returning 100 Burning Bernie damage in addition to Bernie's 50 damage every 2 seconds.  This is uniquely favorable to Bernie.  Deerclops is not a hard fight and it took 2 minutes for Burning Bernie to kill him.  Klaus took him about 7:30.  idk how other bosses would go - but I bet many wouldn't be so simple as these.

What these videos really show is that Bernie is quite tanky, enough to outlast some bosses.

But like - lets see how many other bosses this works on?  b/c I'm not really impressed by Bernie soloing Deerclops ya know?

15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bernie was designed- in the developers own words to be good at fighting bosses, while Abigail was designed to be good at fighting “swarm” type mobs.

Where did the Devs say this?  I think you might be reading into something incorrectly.  Bernie can tank bosses, but he's not (previously) designed to beat them.

14 hours ago, Swiyss said:

or you either have to choose between bernie or your embers. like if you get one you leave the other. that's very healthy and omega fun, imagine choosing between summoner or mage class as willow? AMAZING.

You already do need to pick.  If you take Burning Bernie you cannot take either planar fire spell, and have to make some choices about what other spells to drop.  Its 10 points to get Burning Bernie and planar defense for him.  That gives you only 5 skills total for fire stuff.  Even just taking planar for tanking, without Burning Bernie for damage you have to put 7 points towards it, leaving you less for fire skills.  I think the Bernie tree needs something more interesting but I don't think it needs anything more powerful.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

to Bernie's 50 damage every 2 seconds.  This is uniquely favorable to Bernie.  Deerclops is not a hard fight and it took 2 minutes for Burning Bernie to kill him.

if something can kill deerclops day one straight away with no prep, involvment, or skill, it is kinda op.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

if something can kill deerclops day one straight away with no prep, involvment, or skill, it is kinda op.

do you have issues with killing deerclops

[Jakepeng99]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

do you have issues with killing deerclops

Imagine abigail could solo deerclops.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

if something can kill deerclops day one straight away with no prep, involvment, or skill, it is kinda op.

I mean Maxwell can do him ez that way too.  Bernie can't clear all the bosses nearly as easily as Maxwell with shadow prison which imo skillless as burning bernie.

tbh - its like you cherry picked the 2 fights Bernie can ace and act like this is representative of all fights.  Come back when Bernie is clearing Bee Queen or CC lol

[Jakepeng99]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Bernie can't clear all the bosses nearly as easily as Maxwell with shadow prison which imo skillless as burning bernie.

He at least needs alot of fuel.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He at least needs alot of fuel.

Not really.  nm fuel is easy to farm.

Also

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Imagine abigail could solo deerclops.

wait until she gets her skill tree.

I mean fr deerclops is NOT the boss I'd be concerned about lol  Its like baby's first boss, and we're using skills that require you beat AFW and CC to unlock.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Imagine abigail could solo deerclops.

that wouldn't be an issue because anyone with 20 minutes played in the game could learn how to kill deerclops on their own 

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

if something can kill deerclops day one straight away with no prep, involvment, or skill, it is kinda op.

It's not because it's skills meant for the end game should we make him weak to deerclopes the easiest seasonal boss that can be face tanked to death so that he dies and becomes useless post rift? I then ask you what happens when Maxwell, and the other summoners have to get similar treatment do we just say summons should become worthless post rift? Because while not quite as durable as Bernie they're no doubt gonna get a buff that'll shred deerclops especially Maxwell's duelists probably minus Abigail though.

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He at least needs alot of fuel.

Nightmare fuel is basically free not only is it insanely fast to farm but it's so fuel efficient in it's cost that you'll almost never need to farm more. Right off spawn he can cast 60 spells really stop and think about that for a moment. On the other hand you have Bernie who needs 8 silk and 2 hound teeth to make a sewing kit and even then that's only 5 repairs per slot vs Maxwell's 200 spell casts per slot

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Burning Bernie is pretty potent.  imo its stronger than Abi.  I think the point lock is in a good space meaning you have to pick 10 Bernie skills to get burning and planar, leaving only 5 skills left for fire skills.  Its a proper choice in where you want your damage / playstyle to come from.

Idk Burning Bernie felt pretty lackluster when I tried it compared to what you lose but I guess I'll give it another shot.

[Catuna_]

Hard disagree with this post, a mob soloing Deerclops isn't very impressive seeing that literally anyone can do it by a campfire.

Just because Bernie is strong and applicable doesn't invalidate that it's expensive as hell to get Burning Bernie. Nitpicking two cases where he's good one of which is him beating the easiest boss in the game isn't quite relevant in my opinion, he's not as applicable as he is here against other bosses (although he's still a decent help at worst).

Don't nerf things with the argument that they are good, unless it literally just breaks the game, it just makes characters feel bad and clunky (Walter). Burning Bernie is a costly perk and Bernie getting planar defense lets him actually compete with the other minions that other characters have (Abigail and Maxwell's duelists).