Please Remove Nerf to the Weremoose Smash Punch

[Lardee]

First off, I think I and most people agree that Klei is doing an very good job overall on the Woodie skill tree. I think they knocked it out of the park with the Weretimer, increased Weremoose speed, charge canceling and stun reduction.  I also think they got it exactly right with reducing the Weremoose regeneration.  So rather than fixing something that is bad, this thread is more about improving something that is good. 

 

The hotfix that dropped today decreased the damage from the Weremoose Smash Punch from 136 to 119.  At first glance this doesn't seem like a big deal because you're giving up 17 damage over the course of 3 hits, however for good Woodie players it's actually pretty significant for one major and one minor reason.

The major reason that the 17 damage is significant is that it makes using the Weremoose mastery skill deal more damage than animation canceling. Several of us have done the math on this, and the conclusion is holding down the attack button while the Weremoose Mastery is activated has a slightly higher DPS than perfect animation canceling.  So the 17 damage made the mastery worth it for Woodie players who knew how to animation cancel.  Reducing the damage by 17 puts the Weremoose Mastery significantly below the animation canceling DPS which makes the perk almost useless except in extremely niche situations.  

The minor reason is Grumble Bees. The bees have 180 HP. The Moose's charge and regular punches deal 59.5 damage. Before this change, the moose could 2 shot the grumbles with a charge and a slam. Now it takes three hits. You might think one extra hit isn't that significant, but when you're up against a boss that spams these dudes non-stop, the time and DPS you waste on extra charges really adds up throughout the boss fight.

 

Animation canceling is something that players, especially Weremoose players, learn to do because the moose attacks significantly slower than human characters. Lowering the Smash Punch damage from 136 to 119 results in the Weremoose Mastery skill becoming useless as the player becomes more skilled with the Moose.  I could be wrong, but I think the reason Klei nerfed the Smash Punch is simply because they wanted it to match the damage that the Moose does with 2 punches.  If that's really all there is to it, there's no doubt in my mind that they should change it back to 136 because, as explained earlier, it would mean the Weremoose Mastery would be worth it even if you get really good with Woodie.

 

If the 119 damage per hit is non-negotiable, then I'd propose Klei change the mastery so that the Moose does his Smash Punch attack on every third attack regardless of whether it's a consecutive attack or not.  With this, Woodie players wouldn't have to choose between animation canceling and the Smash Punch thus the Weremoose Mastery wouldn't become obsolete as the player gets more skillful with the Weremoose.

 

 

[Arcwell]

6 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The major reason that the 17 damage is significant is that it makes using the Weremoose mastery skill deal more damage than animation canceling. Several of us have done the math on this, and the conclusion is holding down the attack button while the Weremoose Mastery is activated has a slightly higher DPS than perfect animation canceling.  So the 17 damage made the mastery worth it for Woodie players who knew how to animation cancel.  Reducing the damage by 17 puts the Weremoose Mastery significantly below the animation canceling DPS which makes the perk almost useless except in extremely niche situations.  

I don't mean to suggest this is wrong (because I think it's probably right, I just got different results), but what evidence is there that weremoose combo deals less DPS than perfect animation cancelling? I did a DPS comparison between the two in current patch and got identical DPS values of 148.75:

I am by no means the best at animation cancelling so I fully accept if I'm just not doing it fast enough, just curious where you're getting the data from.

And in either case I'd support both the changes you suggested, I'm not really sure why it was nerfed to begin with.

[chirsg]

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I don't mean to suggest this is wrong (because I think it's probably right, I just got different results), but what evidence is there that weremoose combo deals less DPS than perfect animation cancelling? I did a DPS comparison between the two in current patch and got identical DPS values of 148.75:

 

I am by no means the best at animation cancelling so I fully accept if I'm just not doing it fast enough, just curious where you're getting the data from.

And in either case I'd support both the changes you suggested, I'm not really sure why it was nerfed to begin with.

Someone pointed out in the main update thread that moose especially has a variable punch rate depending on connection. the 136 damage compensates slightly for that.

 

[Lardee]

11 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I don't mean to suggest this is wrong (because I think it's probably right, I just got different results), but what evidence is there that weremoose combo deals less DPS than perfect animation cancelling? I did a DPS comparison between the two in current patch and got identical DPS values of 148.75:

 

I am by no means the best at animation cancelling so I fully accept if I'm just not doing it fast enough, just curious where you're getting the data from.

And in either case I'd support both the changes you suggested, I'm not really sure why it was nerfed to begin with.

If you check out the video below, it shows that with perfect animation canceling the Moose can hit once every .4 seconds.  59.5 damage per hit / .4 hits per second = a DPS of 148.8.

The same video shows that if you hold the attack button down, the moose hits once every .56 seconds. If you average the amount of damage out between the three hit combo (59.5 + 59.5 + 119 = 238. 238 / 3 = 79.3 = average damage per hit) and divide it by hits per second, the new DPS of holding F is 141.6.  Before the Smash Punch nerf, the DPS was 151.8.

 

[Arcwell]

6 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If you check out the video below, it shows that with perfect animation canceling the Moose can hit once every .4 seconds.  59.5 damage per hit / .4 hits per second = a DPS of 148.8.

The same video shows that if you hold the attack button down, the moose hits once every .56 seconds. If you average the amount of damage out between the three hit combo (59.5 + 59.5 + 119 = 238. 238 / 3 = 79.3 = average damage per hit) and divide it by hits per second, the new DPS of holding F is 141.6.  Before the Smash Punch, the DPS was 151.8.

 

Thank you for the response!

[chirsg]

52 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If you check out the video below, it shows that with perfect animation canceling the Moose can hit once every .4 seconds.  59.5 damage per hit / .4 hits per second = a DPS of 148.8.

The same video shows that if you hold the attack button down, the moose hits once every .56 seconds. If you average the amount of damage out between the three hit combo (59.5 + 59.5 + 119 = 238. 238 / 3 = 79.3 = average damage per hit) and divide it by hits per second, the new DPS of holding F is 141.6.  Before the Smash Punch nerf, the DPS was 151.8.

 

Imagine getting hurt more by a boogie than a double overhand axe handle smesh. 

I hate it here.