Sweetles starvation ranching and always low on food

[sirloxley]

In my latest base (Flipped asteriod on hardest levels except hunger, i.e. dupes need 1000kcal/cycle) I am using several sweetle starvation ranches, but it seems my math is off, i.e. I should have enough BBQ to feed everyone but reality is ... I am on 0kcals most of the time.

That specific colony has 55 sweetles in staples and 13 dupes, 4 of which are ranchers with husbandry skill 13 or better. My expectation is that every single of those 55 sweetle lays two eggs during its lifetime ... which brings me to meat/bbq:

A sweetle is worth 1kg of meat, i.e. with 55 sweetles lasting for about 24 cycles (plus another 55 for the second egg during that time) that's 2*55/24=4500kg of meat per cycle, which means I should get 18kcals of BBQ per cycle out of this setup. Hence I am expecting a hefty surplus, and certainly not having to cook mushbars on top.

What's wrong with my numbers? - I can confirm that the ranchers do their job, the staples are replenished in time (I run 17 incubators) and eggs are removed by auto-sweepers.

[hapatchi]

Are you sure that you get 2 eggs per sweetle before they starve? With shove vole starvation ranching each only produces a single egg before running out of calories.  This means that once you stop feeding them, the population remains fixed.  I admit to never having tried this with sweetles, but I would imagine that it works similarly.  Otherwise your sweetle population would actually double with each generation all without food input!

Anyway, that's my best guess.  Good luck!

[LadenSwallow]

Isn't 1kg of meat only 2kcal equivalent barbecue?

If the sweetles are able to tend grubfruit, the grubgrub eggs offer 3 kg meat instead.

[sirloxley]

Clearly ... 1kg meat/bbq = 2000 kcal. So there's one mistake.

Looking at the last 20 cycles, I seem to be getting 5.9kg of meat out of that setup, which is 11800kcal/cycle in average as bbq. So I guess reality tells I have to increase it to at about 61 sweetles ... since this is a game of overengineering, I will go up to 73

[Spoonwood]

11 hours ago, sirloxley said:

Clearly ... 1kg meat/bbq = 2000 kcal. So there's one mistake.

Looking at the last 20 cycles, I seem to be getting 5.9kg of meat out of that setup, which is 11800kcal/cycle in average as bbq. So I guess reality tells I have to increase it to at about 61 sweetles ... since this is a game of overengineering, I will go up to 73

Hatches give you twice the amount of meat.  Why not starvation ranch hatches?

[sirloxley]

3 hours ago, Spoonwood said:

Hatches give you twice the amount of meat.  Why not starvation ranch hatches?

I found this https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/111403-starving-hatches-are-not-quite-in-time-for-eggs/
I put in some math just to convince myself.

A hatchling starts with 6300kcal, and will burn 350kcal (700kcal/cycle * 5 cycles * 0.1) until adulthood.

Scenario 1: The hatch gets ignored by ranchers, and will live a sad glum (yet non-crowded) live.

The 5950 kcal will last 42.5 cycles (6300-350)/(700*0.2). It will then live another 10 cycles in starvation, i.e. 52.5 cycles until it dies. A glum hatch has 1.6% reproduction rate per cycle ... hence an egg can be expected after 65 cycles.

That's impossible.

Scenario 2: Happy but hungry.

In this scenario (I assume timely grooming) the hatches kcal will last for 8.5 cycles before starvation kicks in. A happy hatch has 17% reproduction rate, in this case it should lay an egg after 6.5 cycles and be at 45% once it enters starvation. That's not enough for a second egg. In this case I should get 2kg meat every 21.5 cycles per hatch.

That's 186kcal/cycle per Hatch (as BBQ). With 13 dupes I would need 70 hatches in that setup, and this assumes I am in a best case scenario.

I just wonder how many staples I would need. If I use incubators the old and next generation hatch are spending 6 cycles together (old hatch lays egg at 11.5 cycles, egg in incubator takes 4 cycles). If I don't the next generation will only be born 10 cycles after the initial hatch dies (11.5 + 20 vs. 21.5).

 

But anyway, you are right, if I have 70 sweetles, I can as well have 70 hatches instead. The only difference or advantage I can see for the sweetles is that it's easier to keep the population stable due to the second egg. For the hatch setup, once you lose a hatch for any reason (like accident drowning drop during relocation) it needs to be replaced from a fed hatch breeder. Which is not an issue, just something to be aware of.

Otherwise I don't see any difference, same amount of critters, same amount of kcals, same amount of egg shells.

 

Also this is just a temporary setup until I finally get to use the Sulfur Geyser stuck up in that flipped lava pool. Should be soon enough

[zach123b]

last time i tried working out starvation ranching sweetles it was 5 sweetles per dupe, somehow i got 200kcal/cycle/sweetle with the 2nd egg

doing a quick test, sweetles lay an egg around the age 10 and 20-21 for a total of 2 eggs then dying around age 24-26.  that's a total of 4000kcal barbecue over around 20 cycles, 200kcal/cycle/sweetle like i remember.  not taking into consideration incubation time

however, by my math and not ingame, they would die out if not groomed.  2% reproduction means cycle 55 they'd lay an egg but they only start with 6300calories and consume 140/cycle (70 for 5cycles as a baby) then 6300-350 = 5950 / 140 = 42.5cycles making them live around 47.5cycles as a glum bug without an egg

so a colony of 13 would need atleast 65 sweetles by my math, that's 8.125 ranches, you should also add in some grubfruit plants for a chance at getting grubgrubs for more meat, might only be a small chance but with that many sweetles, you're bound to have a few.  grubfruit plants can be planted in hydroponic tiles and disabled if you're scared to use sulfur which the upside down asteroid automatically gets one in the magma crust

[sirloxley]

Here's a not so quick elaboration on the reproduction math for Sweetles. I have read it already somewhere but I am too lazy to search for it right now.

TL;DR: I will elaborate that ...

• ... a non-cramped, ungroomed and unfed Sweetle will lay exactly one egg after 50 cycles in adhulthood.
• ... a non-cramped, happy but unfed Sweetle will lay two eggs unless they spend more than 2.9 cycles during their first non-starving cycles in glum state

 

Sweetles are born with 6300 kcals and burn 700kcal/cycle base rate. Similar to Hatches they start adulthood with 5950 kcal.

There are two scenarios I will expand this on: Either you keep them happy (groom them) or you don't (=glum). Both scenario assume staple sizes which do not lead to overcrowding (applicable for the happy creatures only) or worse cramped.

Groomed/happy means 700 kcal burn rate per cycle, whereas glum means 140kcal cycle. I have read somewhere [citation needed] that the base reproduction rate is 10% of the happy reproduction rate, i.e. the reported in game 2% are exact (compared to e.g. Hatches).

Scenarion 1a: The unrealistically ideal happy path

The happy adult Sweetle will at least live 8.5 cycles before reaching starvation state. Once a critter is starving it cannot be happy anymore, but will live for another 10 cycles. This last bit is important.

A happy Sweetle has an extra reproduction rate of 20% per cycle. This implies a first egg after a bit more than 4.5 cycles. It will live another 4 cycles before permanently losing this 20% bonus. During that time it will reach 87% reproduction rate. While starving the Sweetle retains a 2% reproduction rate/cycle.

With that we can calculate its total fertility during lifetime: 8.5*(0.2+0.02)+10*0.02 = 2.07
I.e. if things go that well the Sweetle will reach 100% during the seventh cycle in starvation and lays that second egg.

Secenario 1b: The realistic happy path

Now this is obviously an ideal calculation, I haven't given this any leeway for your ranchers missing out. Let's assume a scenario where your Sweetle is glum during that 8.5 initial cycles and let's see how much we can afford it to be in that state.

My math tells me that every cycle it remains glum while not starving costs 0.2 (=8.5/42.5) cycles of happiness. I.e. one full cycle of glum state means, the second egg gets laid only in the seventh cycle: 8.3*0.22+0.02+0.2=2.046. The cutoff point is at 2.9 cycles (says Excel).

Meaning - if I got it right - a Sweetle in a groomed ranch can remain up to 2.9 cycles in glum state and nevertheless lay two eggs during its lifetime.

The glum Sweetle

A glum Sweetle will last for 42.5 cycles before entering starvation, plus another 10 cycles starving. This implies that the Sweetle will reproduce after 50 cycles, i.e 2.5 cycles before it dies.

[calibayzone]

Hm, I had my dreko ranch die out because of the balm lily failing, but when my hatch ranch starved some hatches survived by cannibalism. Never tested sweetle starvation.

[sirloxley]

A bit of topic ... I am halfway through draining that lava pool ... 1500t of igneous rock and counting.

That build turns easily 8t of Magma into igneour rock per cycle without using (too) exploity techniques.